Let algae run its course or attack it?

Clowny88 · 12/23/2014, 10:57 PM

Hey everyone!

I'm back in the hobby after a 15 year hiatus! I've got a new tank that I'm pretty sure has cycled well, but I'm trying to determine my next steps.

45 gallon tank
800 gph powerhead
No filter, no skimmer
Custom 2 ft hood with 65w blue actinic light and a 55w white actinic
50 lbs live sand
60 lbs live rock
2 clownfish, 5 cleaners, no corals

12/4/14 - Mixed salt and RO water
12/6/14 - Loaded 50 lbs live sand
12/10/14 - Added 45 pounds cured live rock from LFS
(Testing for ammonia and standard 6-in-1 test, no spike in levels, seems cycled)
12/13/14 - Added two clownfish
(Still no change in levels, fish doing well)
12/16/14 - Noticing diatom bloom, especially areas where sediment landed from live sand
12/17/14 - Added nassarius snail and emerald crab
12/20/14 - GHA starting to become noticeable on glass
12/23/14 - Added 15 lbs of live rock from very established tank, added 3 turbo snails, GHA starting to coat glass pretty heavily

*Feeding clowns 2 small pinches of flake food each night.

*Lights running from 10:00-7:30

*Still no spike seen in ammonia, assuming tank is cycled. No reading on nitrites/nitrates either.

My questions:
Are my lights on too long, feeding algae growth?
Is my lighting too much?
Is this just a normal process of the diatom bloom and tank cycle?
Am I overfeeding?
Should I be doing a water change yet?
Should I be adding a hang-on filter with something like Chemi-Pure Elite to control phosphates/nitrates or is that overkill at this point?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm all about finding the ROOT CAUSE rather than treating the symptoms. I'm trying to determine if I'm going through those early growing pains and overreacting or if I should be addressing something here, especially since I'm not even 3 weeks in really.

maddmaxx · 12/23/2014, 11:48 PM

- lights arent on that long. alot of ppl run them on 12hr cycles
- not sure what kind of lighting your using. but i doubt its to much
- yes i would assume the diatoms are natural part of the new tank system. i would have waited to add the clowns tho
- if the fish are eating all you put in then your not over feeding, if flakes travel around the tank and dont get filtered or eaten, then yes your over feeding
- if you have fish in the tank, you should be doin water changes to keep params stable
- you can add a hang on power filter if your phos and trates become to much for the system to handle and process

can you please list your equipment and how you have the tank set up?

maddmaxx · 12/23/2014, 11:49 PM

To Reef Central

Reef Frog · 12/24/2014, 12:57 AM

The root cause is nutrients feedimg the diatoms, but they often go away on there own. Green hair algae will come and maybe go - depending on the nutrient situation at that time.

If the diatoms persist and you're having issues with green algae, I suggest concentrating on nutrient export IMO lights are never a cause. Forget Chemipure Elite as it's very expensive carbon & GFO. Run pure GFO like BRS private label, preferably in a small reactor instead of a hang on the back filter. It's very effective. But if you have the filter already a bag of GFO in it is a good idea IMO.

I just looked at your time line. Is the tank fully cycled? Thats important.

Clowny88 · 12/24/2014, 02:05 AM

Thanks for the welcome maddmaxx! My equip/setup is in the original post if that helps.

Reef Frog - I was told by my LFS that the amount of live rock/sand I was putting in would cycle very quickly and I could add fish right away. (Of course the live sand advertises as "instant cycling".). Well I never saw an ammonia spike, but I am starting to see a TINY reading on nitrates. So my assumption has been the tank is cycled... I've heard of this happening on other new tanks with a heavy load of live sand and established rock.

I don't have a filter yet. It sounds like you'd recommend buying the reactor instead? More economical AND effective? I'm assuming the diatoms will do better with the first water change... but it seems like my tank needs an extra weapon for the phosphate/nitrate war.

Thanks so much for the advice by the way. So much more access to good info than my last time at this! Appreciate the support!

Reef Frog · 12/24/2014, 02:54 AM

My pleasure. Sorry I missed that you did all fully cured live rock & sand. Yes it sounds to be fully cycled. In that case no smmonia spike would have happened or one so small it sasnt noticed. Having some nitrates is natural. Remember that even mature tanks have ammonia being deposited by fish and other animals all the time and the bacteria in a balanced tank will transform ammonia & nitrite so quickly it never registers on your tests which have a low precision level.

The nitrates on the other hand persist much longer because a different bacterium is required to convert it to nitrogen gas which leaves the tank into the air. In new tanks, these guys take much longer to establish themselves in numbers sufficient to export the nitrate so it builds up and can be exported by water chsnges. When these bacteria have expanded to the maximum possible but Nitrates continue to rise, an algae bloom is likely and vigorous export is needed to so the fight. That's when people start adding GFO, do water changes and sometimes feed less.

You may want to wait out the diatoms before adding a GFO reactor (which removes phosphates by the way, but diatoms need this molecule too). But if waiting out the green algae doesn't work you need to do something. And GFO works for that very well. It's a personal choice. I feel that if the tank is going to be heavily stocked algae is going to happen & be hard to get under control unless he has good ways to export nutrients and GFO is very common. On my next build I'll add it from the get go because I know I'll need it sooner than later. There are other ways to keep an algae free tank but I like GFO.

BTW removing any algae snd distoms you can by hand, siphon or filter is highly recommended and sill speed up the process.

An up flow reactor is very efficient bc unlike bags, lots of water is directed at the right speed through all of the media for maximum exposure and absorption. But bags in filters do work and may be enough for many situations. A reactor like a TLF 150 can be had for ~&45 the pump to drive it, maybe ~$20. Buy a year's worth of GFO at a time so that cost will be pretty reasonable for your size tank.

Clowny88 · 12/24/2014, 04:24 AM

Reef Frog - Thanks for the thorough advice! I think what I will do is watch the nitrates and do that first water change once those start to rise (so that I'm not pulling out bacteria before they've had a chance to populate). Then I will start to push towards more frequent water changes and GFO in time.

This tank won't be heavily stocked. Two clowns for now, anemone and mandarin at 6 months, corals after a year. My bioload should always be very manageable.

Thanks again!!

doctorwhoreefer · 12/24/2014, 10:11 AM

The only times I've usually had the thought of letting things 'run their course' when dealing with algae, and not attacking it, has resulted in bad times.

hehe

Clowny88 · 12/24/2014, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorwhoreefer

The only times I've usually had the thought of letting things 'run their course' when dealing with algae, and not attacking it, has resulted in bad times.

hehe

Even on a tank this new? I'm hesitant to do a water change this early... Even though the tank appears to be fully cycled.

alb_56 · 12/25/2014, 12:17 AM

Personally I would say it's normal. I would just remove it manually and (maybe) run a little phosphate remover. Just my opinion though. Eventually things will balance out.

Quote:

I'm hesitant to do a water change this early.

I don't really think there is such a thing as a water change being too early.

Clownfish Chris · 12/25/2014, 12:25 PM

Defiantly do a water change. Once you have livestock, water changes should be preformed. The bacteria do not populate the water, they populate the rocks and other surfaces. You won't be loosing nitrating bacteria with a water change.

Timfish · 12/25/2014, 02:10 PM

80% to 90% of the time I run into a nuisance algae problem it goes away by itself with only syphoning off what's easy to get to (I do small weekly water changes of 5% to 10%). Nilsen and Fossa in Vol I of their "Modern Coral Reef" series chart the algae cycle an aquarium goes through during the maturation process which can take 8 - 10 months on pg 164. The also have "during" and "after" pictures pg 115 and 163.

Clowny88 · 12/26/2014, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clownfish Chris

Defiantly do a water change. Once you have livestock, water changes should be preformed. The bacteria do not populate the water, they populate the rocks and other surfaces. You won't be loosing nitrating bacteria with a water change.

Thanks Chris. This is exactly what my main concern was.

Jeff210 · 12/26/2014, 12:10 PM

I run GFO and carbon 24/7 in separate reactors as well as a UV sterilizer...I also have a Gyre and 2 MP40's in my 210...there shall be no dead spots in my tank

Clowny88 · 12/28/2014, 08:26 PM

Thanks for all the responses on this.

2 days ago I did a 10% water change. And I'm still seeing an explosion of growth. Today I bought an HOB filter, Fluval Aqua Clear. I also started scraping algae and scooping it into a net. Its about 2-3 inches long covering all sides.

Tomorrow I plan on doing another 10% water change as well as picking up some PhosGuard to put in the filter.

The only additional culprit that I can think could be adding to the problem... One of my actinic bulbs is over 10 years old. I read that old CFLs promote algae growth. Should I cut this off and go with only my newer bulb?

Reef Frog · 12/29/2014, 12:59 AM

Continue doing water changes & manual removal. Use GFO, it's better then Phisgaurd and change it out frequently. You really should replace all bulbs older than a year. A protein skimmer would be helpful. You won't see progress right away, it could take a few weeks so be patient.

Clowny88 · 12/29/2014, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reef Frog

Continue doing water changes & manual removal. Use GFO, it's better then Phisgaurd and change it out frequently. You really should replace all bulbs older than a year. A protein skimmer would be helpful. You won't see progress right away, it could take a few weeks so be patient.

Thanks for the advice. I'm ordering GFO and a reactor as we speak. I also took down the older bulb in the meantime.

My LFS told me a protein skimmer wasn't really necessary, with such a small bioload (two clowns) and so much live rock/sand (70 lbs rock/50 sand).

Is this a mistake? Should a skimmer be high on my shopping list?

Reef Frog · 12/29/2014, 11:43 AM

I think you may be OK without the skimmer - see how it goes. I have read many reports of people with no skimmers but have successful tsnks with water changes & sometimes running carbon to polish the water (remove the yellow color). Not packing a small tank to the limit is also a good idea. Best wishes for an algae free 2015!

12/23/2014, 10:57 PM	#1
Clowny88 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: N. Illinois Posts: 270	Let algae run its course or attack it? Hey everyone! I'm back in the hobby after a 15 year hiatus! I've got a new tank that I'm pretty sure has cycled well, but I'm trying to determine my next steps. 45 gallon tank 800 gph powerhead No filter, no skimmer Custom 2 ft hood with 65w blue actinic light and a 55w white actinic 50 lbs live sand 60 lbs live rock 2 clownfish, 5 cleaners, no corals 12/4/14 - Mixed salt and RO water 12/6/14 - Loaded 50 lbs live sand 12/10/14 - Added 45 pounds cured live rock from LFS (Testing for ammonia and standard 6-in-1 test, no spike in levels, seems cycled) 12/13/14 - Added two clownfish (Still no change in levels, fish doing well) 12/16/14 - Noticing diatom bloom, especially areas where sediment landed from live sand 12/17/14 - Added nassarius snail and emerald crab 12/20/14 - GHA starting to become noticeable on glass 12/23/14 - Added 15 lbs of live rock from very established tank, added 3 turbo snails, GHA starting to coat glass pretty heavily Feeding clowns 2 small pinches of flake food each night. Lights running from 10:00-7:30 *Still no spike seen in ammonia, assuming tank is cycled. No reading on nitrites/nitrates either. My questions: Are my lights on too long, feeding algae growth? Is my lighting too much? Is this just a normal process of the diatom bloom and tank cycle? Am I overfeeding? Should I be doing a water change yet? Should I be adding a hang-on filter with something like Chemi-Pure Elite to control phosphates/nitrates or is that overkill at this point? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm all about finding the ROOT CAUSE rather than treating the symptoms. I'm trying to determine if I'm going through those early growing pains and overreacting or if I should be addressing something here, especially since I'm not even 3 weeks in really.

12/23/2014, 11:48 PM	#2
maddmaxx Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 3,003	- lights arent on that long. alot of ppl run them on 12hr cycles - not sure what kind of lighting your using. but i doubt its to much - yes i would assume the diatoms are natural part of the new tank system. i would have waited to add the clowns tho - if the fish are eating all you put in then your not over feeding, if flakes travel around the tank and dont get filtered or eaten, then yes your over feeding - if you have fish in the tank, you should be doin water changes to keep params stable - you can add a hang on power filter if your phos and trates become to much for the system to handle and process can you please list your equipment and how you have the tank set up? __________________ One Life One Shot Current Tank Info: 40B Mixed reef

12/23/2014, 11:49 PM	#3
maddmaxx Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 3,003	*To Reef Central* __________________ One Life One Shot Current Tank Info: 40B Mixed reef

12/24/2014, 02:54 AM	#6
Reef Frog Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,121	My pleasure. Sorry I missed that you did all fully cured live rock & sand. Yes it sounds to be fully cycled. In that case no smmonia spike would have happened or one so small it sasnt noticed. Having some nitrates is natural. Remember that even mature tanks have ammonia being deposited by fish and other animals all the time and the bacteria in a balanced tank will transform ammonia & nitrite so quickly it never registers on your tests which have a low precision level. The nitrates on the other hand persist much longer because a different bacterium is required to convert it to nitrogen gas which leaves the tank into the air. In new tanks, these guys take much longer to establish themselves in numbers sufficient to export the nitrate so it builds up and can be exported by water chsnges. When these bacteria have expanded to the maximum possible but Nitrates continue to rise, an algae bloom is likely and vigorous export is needed to so the fight. That's when people start adding GFO, do water changes and sometimes feed less. You may want to wait out the diatoms before adding a GFO reactor (which removes phosphates by the way, but diatoms need this molecule too). But if waiting out the green algae doesn't work you need to do something. And GFO works for that very well. It's a personal choice. I feel that if the tank is going to be heavily stocked algae is going to happen & be hard to get under control unless he has good ways to export nutrients and GFO is very common. On my next build I'll add it from the get go because I know I'll need it sooner than later. There are other ways to keep an algae free tank but I like GFO. BTW removing any algae snd distoms you can by hand, siphon or filter is highly recommended and sill speed up the process. An up flow reactor is very efficient bc unlike bags, lots of water is directed at the right speed through all of the media for maximum exposure and absorption. But bags in filters do work and may be enough for many situations. A reactor like a TLF 150 can be had for ~&45 the pump to drive it, maybe ~$20. Buy a year's worth of GFO at a time so that cost will be pretty reasonable for your size tank. Last edited by Reef Frog; 12/24/2014 at 03:03 AM.

12/25/2014, 02:10 PM	#12
Timfish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,985	80% to 90% of the time I run into a nuisance algae problem it goes away by itself with only syphoning off what's easy to get to (I do small weekly water changes of 5% to 10%). Nilsen and Fossa in Vol I of their "Modern Coral Reef" series chart the algae cycle an aquarium goes through during the maturation process which can take 8 - 10 months on pg 164. The also have "during" and "after" pictures pg 115 and 163. __________________ "Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs" Charles Delbeek

12/24/2014, 12:57 AM	#4
Reef Frog Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,121	The root cause is nutrients feedimg the diatoms, but they often go away on there own. Green hair algae will come and maybe go - depending on the nutrient situation at that time. If the diatoms persist and you're having issues with green algae, I suggest concentrating on nutrient export IMO lights are never a cause. Forget Chemipure Elite as it's very expensive carbon & GFO. Run pure GFO like BRS private label, preferably in a small reactor instead of a hang on the back filter. It's very effective. But if you have the filter already a bag of GFO in it is a good idea IMO. I just looked at your time line. Is the tank fully cycled? Thats important.

12/24/2014, 02:05 AM	#5
Clowny88 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: N. Illinois Posts: 270	Thanks for the welcome maddmaxx! My equip/setup is in the original post if that helps. Reef Frog - I was told by my LFS that the amount of live rock/sand I was putting in would cycle very quickly and I could add fish right away. (Of course the live sand advertises as "instant cycling".). Well I never saw an ammonia spike, but I am starting to see a TINY reading on nitrates. So my assumption has been the tank is cycled... I've heard of this happening on other new tanks with a heavy load of live sand and established rock. I don't have a filter yet. It sounds like you'd recommend buying the reactor instead? More economical AND effective? I'm assuming the diatoms will do better with the first water change... but it seems like my tank needs an extra weapon for the phosphate/nitrate war. Thanks so much for the advice by the way. So much more access to good info than my last time at this! Appreciate the support!

12/24/2014, 04:24 AM	#7
Clowny88 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: N. Illinois Posts: 270	Reef Frog - Thanks for the thorough advice! I think what I will do is watch the nitrates and do that first water change once those start to rise (so that I'm not pulling out bacteria before they've had a chance to populate). Then I will start to push towards more frequent water changes and GFO in time. This tank won't be heavily stocked. Two clowns for now, anemone and mandarin at 6 months, corals after a year. My bioload should always be very manageable. Thanks again!!

12/24/2014, 10:11 AM	#8
doctorwhoreefer Moved On Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 353	The only times I've usually had the thought of letting things 'run their course' when dealing with algae, and not attacking it, has resulted in bad times. hehe

12/25/2014, 12:25 PM	#11
Clownfish Chris Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 179	Defiantly do a water change. Once you have livestock, water changes should be preformed. The bacteria do not populate the water, they populate the rocks and other surfaces. You won't be loosing nitrating bacteria with a water change.

12/26/2014, 12:10 PM	#14
Jeff210 Moved On Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Mile High City Posts: 188	I run GFO and carbon 24/7 in separate reactors as well as a UV sterilizer...I also have a Gyre and 2 MP40's in my 210...there shall be no dead spots in my tank

12/28/2014, 08:26 PM	#15
Clowny88 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: N. Illinois Posts: 270	Thanks for all the responses on this. 2 days ago I did a 10% water change. And I'm still seeing an explosion of growth. Today I bought an HOB filter, Fluval Aqua Clear. I also started scraping algae and scooping it into a net. Its about 2-3 inches long covering all sides. Tomorrow I plan on doing another 10% water change as well as picking up some PhosGuard to put in the filter. The only additional culprit that I can think could be adding to the problem... One of my actinic bulbs is over 10 years old. I read that old CFLs promote algae growth. Should I cut this off and go with only my newer bulb?

12/29/2014, 12:59 AM	#16
Reef Frog Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,121	Continue doing water changes & manual removal. Use GFO, it's better then Phisgaurd and change it out frequently. You really should replace all bulbs older than a year. A protein skimmer would be helpful. You won't see progress right away, it could take a few weeks so be patient.

12/29/2014, 11:43 AM	#18
Reef Frog Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,121	I think you may be OK without the skimmer - see how it goes. I have read many reports of people with no skimmers but have successful tsnks with water changes & sometimes running carbon to polish the water (remove the yellow color). Not packing a small tank to the limit is also a good idea. Best wishes for an algae free 2015!