Goby/shrimp pair substrate

[Radiation91]

Hi all!

At some point I'd like to start a high tech 100g tank to grow a large collection of corals and anemones, with a SSB. It will be my first tank so I'd like to avoid the DSB for now. One thing that I'm really looking forward to is having a goby/shrimp symbiotic pair and I'd like some advice from you experienced reefers to set the tank up in the best possible way. I know that getting a goby and shrimp together will not definitely result in them painring up but I want to get things set up to encourage it.

I've seen that when a goby pairs with a shrimp, it tends to stop sifting the sand and focuses on being a lookout for the shrimp. I can get other creatures to stir up the substrate so thats not a big issue. I'm just wondering whether its better to:

1) have fine sand so that it still do some sifting if it wants to (for food), but then the shrimp cant make a very good cave entrance because the sand will roll back down.

2) have slightly coarse substrate so that the shrimp can do a bit of landscaping around the cave, but then the goby cant sift anything and that could be a problem if it's not eating enough.

3) have fine sand to allow the goby to sift, but have some purposely placed live rock and small rocks around the cave entrance so that the shrimp can move stuff around a bit. This would give them both the chance to do their own thing.

Any advice on this is appreciated!

Do certain types of Goby and pistol shrimp pair more easily? More importantly, how much do the different types of Goby sift? Also, with lots of corals I need to be aware of Gobies spitting sand everywhere.

Cheers,

Rad91

[troubadour11]

Hey there, it sounds like you're thinking things through pretty well.

I've got a 90 dt set up that houses a Yellow Watchman goby that is paired up now with a Tiger Pistol.

I run a mixed reef in my tank and used all sugar fine (oolitic sand).

The depth sand bed for me is kind of important so the shrimp has enough space to burrow. I run 2 inches in low spots and 4 inches or so in the deep spots as the bed has shifted around and settled due to flow, fish, shrimp, etc.

But if you have really hollow rocks, the shrimp may take up a burrow there too. Mine has built a burrow down under/inside a large rock tower I built. My shrimp & goby have been happily living there for almost a year together now with now issues maintaining the den.

Even with all oolitic sand, the shrimp burrowed and maintained the den just fine. It eventually found an empty snail shell to use as a doorway for a time. Now, anytime I break up some rock rubble to attach a frag to, I grab the little pencil eraser size bits & drop them near the den enterance. Makes for fun viewing watching the YWG lookout while the shrimp ventures out to collect the bits to build with.

One way to get around a DSB for the shrimp is to lay some pvc pipe tunnels beneath rock/sand which will keep the fine sand from collapsing in on the den. Or at least make entry ways for a den. But I found they were fine without.

One thing I did try over the pvc pipes was, since I started with all dry rock, I used 2 long narrow pieces of rock that were about 2-3 inches thick as feet & attached a larger rock (like a bridge/roof) between them. So I ended up with a stable rock tower elevated up with an empty 2 inches of sand below. My thought was to make a pistol shrimp cave because I was worried about the fine sand collapsing.

My shrimp & goby ened up choosing a spot somewhere else anyway and could care less.

Any Shrimp Goby should eventually pair with a tiger or bullseye pistol shrimp. Avoid Sleeper Gobies. They most likely won't pair & are the big sifters. My YWG paired with our pistol after a couple months or so in the dt together. Just give it time and they'll prolly figure it out.

As for sand sifting from my shrimp goby. My YWG pecks at the sand occasionally throughout the day. But only within a few fish lengths from the den enterance where it hangs out to keep watch. It doesnt sift enough to cause any problem. I would say the pistol shrimp kicks and stirs up way more sand then the YWG when cleaning the enterance. But it's not enough sand to upset my favia, acans, zoas near their den. The goby just grabs a mouthful & drops it at the den enterance after chewing/sifting it. Then typically the shrimp digs it back out. LOL

I hope that helps. Go for it, they're really a great pair & lots of fun to watch. I'll probably always keep a pair in my systems from now on. Let me know if you got any other questions I may have missed.

[Radiation91]

Originally Posted by troubadour11

I run a mixed reef in my tank and used all sugar fine (oolitic sand).

The depth sand bed for me is kind of important so the shrimp has enough space to burrow. I run 2 inches in low spots and 4 inches or so in the deep spots as the bed has shifted around and settled due to flow, fish, shrimp, etc.

Interesting! I like the idea of an uneven sand bed but I've read that it should be less than 2 inches for shallow bed and more than 4 for a deep sand bed. Anywhere inbetween can cause problems with toxic gas build up. How do you avoid this?

Originally Posted by troubadour11

Even with all oolitic sand, the shrimp burrowed and maintained the den just fine. It eventually found an empty snail shell to use as a doorway for a time. Now, anytime I break up some rock rubble to attach a frag to, I grab the little pencil eraser size bits & drop them near the den enterance. Makes for fun viewing watching the YWG lookout while the shrimp ventures out to collect the bits to build with.

YES! That's exactly what I want! haha I like you're idea of making a cave using rock. I think if I did it right, the PVC wouldn't be necessary. Any small gaps that let in some sand could be good because it will fill in the cave a bit and give the shrimp some more stuff to clean out Scattering bits of rock around is a great idea and I'm defo going to do that!

Originally Posted by troubadour11

Any Shrimp Goby should eventually pair with a tiger or bullseye pistol shrimp. Avoid Sleeper Gobies. They most likely won't pair & are the big sifters. My YWG paired with our pistol after a couple months or so in the dt together. Just give it time and they'll prolly figure it out.

As for sand sifting from my shrimp goby. My YWG pecks at the sand occasionally throughout the day. But only within a few fish lengths from the den enterance where it hangs out to keep watch. It doesnt sift enough to cause any problem. I would say the pistol shrimp kicks and stirs up way more sand then the YWG when cleaning the enterance. But it's not enough sand to upset my favia, acans, zoas near their den. The goby just grabs a mouthful & drops it at the den enterance after chewing/sifting it. Then typically the shrimp digs it back out. LOL

Why does this make me smile so much? So your Goby only does a bit of sifting... that means you must have something to stir up and clean the rest of the sand bed? Also, does the Goby catch bits of food floating in the water or do you drop sinking pellets around the den for it to sift and find?

Originally Posted by troubadour11

I hope that helps. Go for it, they're really a great pair & lots of fun to watch. I'll probably always keep a pair in my systems from now on. Let me know if you got any other questions I may have missed.

It's been a great help yes! Thank you!

Off to surf the web some more now!

Looking at Oolitic sand. Avoiding sleeper gobies and looking at shrimp gobies. Looking at tiger or bullseye shrimp.

[troubadour11]

Originally Posted by Radiation91

Interesting! I like the idea of an uneven sand bed but I've read that it should be less than 2 inches for shallow bed and more than 4 for a deep sand bed. Anywhere inbetween can cause problems with toxic gas build up. How do you avoid this?

- I started with just over 2 inches of dry sand. Over the first few months, that sand compacted down & drifted. I was aiming for right at 2 inches. So I added a bit more sand. Some of the addition drifted & piled in deep spots and some stayed shallow. I will probably go to a full 4 inch need in the long run. The standard 90 is plenty tall for it.

My understanding on the 2 inch or less or 4 inch or more rule is more for sand bed filtering ability. A full 4 inch + deep bed is deep enough to have a low oxygen zone where certain bacteria can complete the nitrogen cycle. 2-3ish inches isn't enough to create this zone. But 2 inches or less can support sand bed life (micro/macro fauna) and host bacteria that help with the beginning of the nitrogen cycle.

Hence being in the middle ground can create a detritus tap & nutrient sink.

A dsb can develop toxic gas pockets from what I've read. I've not had this issue in the 1.5 years for this system. I try avoid this by having animals that stir & turn over my sand bed for me.

Originally Posted by Radiation91

Why does this make me smile so much? So your Goby only does a bit of sifting... that means you must have something to stir up and clean the rest of the sand bed? Also, does the Goby catch bits of food floating in the water or do you drop sinking pellets around the den for it to sift and find?

- The goby does sift some. But usually never more the 5-10 inches from the den. And not constantly all day long. Which really, I don't want it sifting the bed. Because then its sifting out my beneficial sand bed critters.

And you're right, I do have other stuff to turn the bed. I have a few Tongan conchs that do a great job of stirring the same. Plus nassarius snails, cerith snails, spaghetti worms, bristle worms, and mini brittle stars. These cover what the pistol shrimp doesn't burrow in.

And I do have a 75 gallon fuge in the closet next to my sump seeded with the same micro fauna. This has the same footprint as my 90 dt but has a full dsb with additional rockwork elevated of the sand bed with pvc/egg crate platforms. This gives me extra filtration to combat any nutrient issues with the shifting depth of the sand in the dt.

It's been a great help yes! Thank you! [/QUOTE]

Glad I could help with some thoughts and ideas. I love having them paired up. One of the coolest things in my tank right now. At least I think so.

[Anthony Reefer]

I plan on getting a Pink spot goby for my planned 40b. I have not decided on sand size, thinking about sugar size but worried the goby will spread it all over corals on the sandbed. I do know I want a 2" sandbed. I also plan on a 4" DSB in my fuge, but also do not know what size for DBS.

Any recommendations?

[Radiation91]

Originally Posted by troubadour11

- I started with just over 2 inches of dry sand. Over the first few months, that sand compacted down & drifted. I was aiming for right at 2 inches. So I added a bit more sand. Some of the addition drifted & piled in deep spots and some stayed shallow. I will probably go to a full 4 inch need in the long run. The standard 90 is plenty tall for it.

My understanding on the 2 inch or less or 4 inch or more rule is more for sand bed filtering ability. A full 4 inch + deep bed is deep enough to have a low oxygen zone where certain bacteria can complete the nitrogen cycle. 2-3ish inches isn't enough to create this zone. But 2 inches or less can support sand bed life (micro/macro fauna) and host bacteria that help with the beginning of the nitrogen cycle.

Hence being in the middle ground can create a detritus tap & nutrient sink.

A dsb can develop toxic gas pockets from what I've read. I've not had this issue in the 1.5 years for this system. I try avoid this by having animals that stir & turn over my sand bed for me.

- The goby does sift some. But usually never more the 5-10 inches from the den. And not constantly all day long. Which really, I don't want it sifting the bed. Because then its sifting out my beneficial sand bed critters.

And you're right, I do have other stuff to turn the bed. I have a few Tongan conchs that do a great job of stirring the same. Plus nassarius snails, cerith snails, spaghetti worms, bristle worms, and mini brittle stars. These cover what the pistol shrimp doesn't burrow in.

And I do have a 75 gallon fuge in the closet next to my sump seeded with the same micro fauna. This has the same footprint as my 90 dt but has a full dsb with additional rockwork elevated of the sand bed with pvc/egg crate platforms. This gives me extra filtration to combat any nutrient issues with the shifting depth of the sand in the dt.

Thanks for clearing that up. I hear the phrase "toxic gases" and my brain just melts. I plan to get some nassarius snails and conches to help stir things up and I'm probably going to have a 2 inch SSB for now. Thanks for clearing that up though... every day's a lesson! I didn't know about spaghetti worms so that's going to be my next topic to research hehe!

Originally Posted by Anthony Reefer

I plan on getting a Pink spot goby for my planned 40b. I have not decided on sand size, thinking about sugar size but worried the goby will spread it all over corals on the sandbed. I do know I want a 2" sandbed. I also plan on a 4" DSB in my fuge, but also do not know what size for DBS.

Any recommendations?

Pink Spot Goby... That's a type of watchman Goby if I'm not mistaken? I've been looking into that fish and there's mixed reviews. Some have said that they get really carried away and make a sand storm (but that could be seen as a good thing because all the stuff in the sand then gets filtered out). Others say that they sit around in their cave and just watch you when you walk past. Kind of hard to tell what they're going to be like really!

A lot of people online say that they rarely swim up and drop sand so you should be ok... but I have seen a few mention that they kick sand up.

Based on what I've seen, it shouldn't be a problem if you dont put any corals on the Sand bed right next to their cave... but that might not accuractely reflect on the beaviour of your goby