Such thing as "too clean" water for softies?

Jmunk · 01/09/2015, 12:35 AM

I'm a predominately sofites tank, maybe a few LPS. Something about the flow and naturalness of it appeals to me.

However, is there such a thing as too clean water for softies? With wet skimming, GFO and carbon reactors running, does it strip the softies of the nutrients they need?

I'm not sure if I'm overdoing it as far as nutrient export, when my tank has no SPS, and mainly softies. What do you guys think?

Scuba_Steve · 01/09/2015, 01:25 AM

This is a debatable subject. IMO, yes. Especially corals such as xenia need a certain amount of gunk in the water column to thrive. They often seem to melt away when introduced to pristine conditions. I personally run an almost all zoa system and underskim on purpose to keep them happy and well fed.

Wretched · 01/09/2015, 01:48 AM

From personal experience, and not scientific evidence here's my thought process...

I had a HUGE colony of blue cloves, and pink xenia mixed together in what was a lazy reefer (water changes every 3 months). They grew very fast and looked great. I upgraded tanks and decided to be a better reefer and do water changes 25% every 8-10 days. I lost all of my blue cloves, and a lot of xenia... some stayed. Now i'm running a phos. reactor, as well as the water changes and the xenia are coming back. Stripping a water with too much GFO is bad to ANY tank. Having just enough to take care of your phosphates and keeping them in check is fine. My Xenia look great now, even with the reactor and water changes and still spreading great. I love LPS/Softies too.

Check out the attachment.

Azedenkae · 01/09/2015, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmunk

I'm a predominately sofites tank, maybe a few LPS. Something about the flow and naturalness of it appeals to me.

However, is there such a thing as too clean water for softies? With wet skimming, GFO and carbon reactors running, does it strip the softies of the nutrients they need?

I'm not sure if I'm overdoing it as far as nutrient export, when my tank has no SPS, and mainly softies. What do you guys think?

Of course. This is something of a common knowledge sort of thing. Softies love a bit of 'dirty water'.

oseymour · 01/09/2015, 06:32 AM

I now have 0 nitrates because of my vodka dosing regimen over the last 3 months and my mushrooms and xenia have shriveled up

toothybugs · 01/09/2015, 06:39 AM

I prided myself on having a rather clean tank this time around - coincidentally, I've had minimal growth in all my zoas and corals as well. My old system, before I ran RODI and watched my feed amounts closely, grew softies like CRAZY. A frag with 8 polyps would be softball-sized in 4 to 6 months, easy, and basketball within a year. Now, not nearly so much. Half of my zoa frags have not put out new polyps in months. My GSP is the only thing that's grown much, going from a 2-inch-long-by-2polyp-wide strip of polyps to maybe 6-7 square inches in the last 10 months. In other words, minimal. I really like having a clean tank and I do feed my fish twice a day (and there are some leftovers that get picked up by the sock) but I only have to polish my glass once every 2 weeks or so.

Between the start of the new year and Valentine's Day, I'm going to pick up a few more snails and start shutting my skimmer down for periods of time to help keep some nutrients around. We'll see what happens.

davidfrances · 01/09/2015, 06:44 AM

My 250G softie tank. I run my skimmer very dry, and run 2 cups each of GFO and GAC in a reactor, and change it every 3 weeks. The tank is dominated by xenia, anthelia, zoos, palys, 'shrooms, and sea fans. I have a few small SPS and LPS, and a couple of clams.

This tank has been running for over 2 years now. I added the GFO/GAC reactor back in November, and softie growth has slowed, but the few SPS's I have seem to be doing much better. I may gradually shift to SPS's if the softies decline.

The water in my 120G frag system is very dirty. In fact, after water changes on my DT's, I recycle that water into my frag system. I grow mostly softies for trade to my LFS's.

alton · 01/09/2015, 06:51 AM

If I ran the skimmer on this tank the Xenia would quit pulsing

hart24601 · 01/09/2015, 08:59 AM

IMO you can't really lump everything together under softies to make a statement like that. In my personal experience soft coral like zoas do great with ULNS and there seem to be lots of zeo tanks with amazing zoas. But whenever I have tried to keep xenia it melts away when my nutrients drop, but toadstools I have kept in ULNS alright, so I think it really just depends on the species.

ReefsandGeeks · 01/09/2015, 09:40 AM

I would venture to guess that pristein water would be better for softies if the tank were fed frequently enough. Personaly, my tank has undetectable nitrates, and I'm dropping my phosphates, but i put in a mL of oyster feast every day during the day, and 2mL after lights out. My softies LPS and SPS are all doing good, colorful and growing. I do vodka dose to counteract frequent feedings. Plus I feed my fish once a day, shich would also provide some food f or the coral. I can't speak in general, but for me, frequent feedings seems to negate any negative effects o low nutrient water on my soft coral.

Timfish · 01/09/2015, 10:01 AM

There is no correlation between the terms "softie", "LPS" and "SPS" and the husbandry requirements of a species of coral. Looking just at the genus Acropora you will find species that live in mutually exclusive environments. All hermetic corals need phosphates and nitrogen (as NH4, N03 or even N02) to grow their symbiotic dinoflagellates. As aquarists we have no way of measuring organic phosphate so arbitrarily reducing orthophosphate, which we can test for, to zero may have adverse effects on our corals. For reference Kleypas, et al, surveyed almost a thousand reefs and P04 was an average of .13 mg/l http://www.ronshimek.com/references/...evelopment.pdf.

KafudaFish · 01/09/2015, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azedenkae

Of course. This is something of a common knowledge sort of thing. Softies love a bit of 'dirty water'.

So you throw dirt in your tank?

3dees · 01/09/2015, 01:35 PM

I can't get any nitrates in my 120 gal. softie/lps tank. I had a Kenya, clove polyps, and a colony of zoas just melt away. all my leathers, mushrooms and lps are doing fine. I agree that some corals prefer a tank that just a bit dirty.

cloak · 01/09/2015, 01:48 PM

FWIW, I've seen plenty of tanks where Xenia and various sps corals were placed right next to each other and both of them were thriving under the same conditions.
Two corals from opposite sides of the track living it up to the fullest, who would have thought?

Jmunk · 01/09/2015, 02:07 PM

Hmm, interesting.

So how would raise your nutrient levels for your softies without stopping your protein skimmer/GFO, or is that impossible? Is it just a matter of feeding your fish/coral more? Or running less GFO, skimming more dry?

SGT_York · 01/09/2015, 02:08 PM

The response is certainly, it applies to all types of coral even SPS, just depends on the level that you consider dirty.

Also there is the whole organic vs inorganic tests. In summary the nutrients test results are not what is important but they do indicate a correlation.

toothybugs · 01/09/2015, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmunk

Hmm, interesting.

So how would raise your nutrient levels for your softies without stopping your protein skimmer/GFO, or is that impossible? Is it just a matter of feeding your fish/coral more? Or running less GFO, skimming more dry?

On further thought about my 'shut the skimmer off' comment, I'll probably just turn down my airflow through it a bit for a couple weeks and see what happens.

Jmunk · 01/09/2015, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toothybugs

On further thought about my 'shut the skimmer off' comment, I'll probably just turn down my airflow through it a bit for a couple weeks and see what happens.

Just did that! I'm also gonna start feeding a bit more, and we'll see how things go!

whosurcaddie · 01/09/2015, 03:14 PM

My nitrate reading was sitting at zero for a while after combating a bryopsis outbreak. I just raised them back to 5ppm with calcium nitrate. I just dissolved a 1/2 teaspoon of calcium nitrate into a gallon of water. I added half the gallon then an hour later added the other half which raised my tanks nitrates to 5ppm. Something to consider if your having a problem raising nitrates. Phosphate though I think you could just feed more.

01/09/2015, 12:35 AM	#1
Jmunk Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 686	Such thing as "too clean" water for softies? I'm a predominately sofites tank, maybe a few LPS. Something about the flow and naturalness of it appeals to me. However, is there such a thing as too clean water for softies? With wet skimming, GFO and carbon reactors running, does it strip the softies of the nutrients they need? I'm not sure if I'm overdoing it as far as nutrient export, when my tank has no SPS, and mainly softies. What do you guys think? __________________ 90G \| Eshopps S-120 Skimmer \| RS200 Sump \| 5 fish \| Mixed Reef \| Up and running ~ 18 months \| MP40/MP10 \| 8 bulb T5 Fixture

01/09/2015, 01:25 AM	#2
Scuba_Steve Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pooler, Ga Posts: 1,342	This is a debatable subject. IMO, yes. Especially corals such as xenia need a certain amount of gunk in the water column to thrive. They often seem to melt away when introduced to pristine conditions. I personally run an almost all zoa system and underskim on purpose to keep them happy and well fed. __________________ 40g DIY AIO. DT Size is 27"x18"x17" SCA-301 skimmer, DIY ATS 4"x4" 1 cube setup, Ocean Revive 120w LED, Quiet One 3000, Jager 150w TBS Rock

01/09/2015, 06:32 AM	#5
oseymour Euphyllia Addict Join Date: May 2012 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 1,424	I now have 0 nitrates because of my vodka dosing regimen over the last 3 months and my mushrooms and xenia have shriveled up __________________ Just started Red Sea Reefer 350 (75 Gallon) Build Thread - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2555495 Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 350

01/09/2015, 10:01 AM	#11
Timfish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,985	There is no correlation between the terms "softie", "LPS" and "SPS" and the husbandry requirements of a species of coral. Looking just at the genus Acropora you will find species that live in mutually exclusive environments. All hermetic corals need phosphates and nitrogen (as NH4, N03 or even N02) to grow their symbiotic dinoflagellates. As aquarists we have no way of measuring organic phosphate so arbitrarily reducing orthophosphate, which we can test for, to zero may have adverse effects on our corals. For reference Kleypas, et al, surveyed almost a thousand reefs and P04 was an average of .13 mg/l http://www.ronshimek.com/references/...evelopment.pdf. __________________ "Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs" Charles Delbeek Last edited by Timfish; 01/09/2015 at 10:11 AM.

01/09/2015, 02:07 PM	#15
Jmunk Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 686	Hmm, interesting. So how would raise your nutrient levels for your softies without stopping your protein skimmer/GFO, or is that impossible? Is it just a matter of feeding your fish/coral more? Or running less GFO, skimming more dry? __________________ 90G \| Eshopps S-120 Skimmer \| RS200 Sump \| 5 fish \| Mixed Reef \| Up and running ~ 18 months \| MP40/MP10 \| 8 bulb T5 Fixture

01/09/2015, 06:39 AM	#6
toothybugs In Memoriam Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: The smallest county in Illinois Posts: 1,986	I prided myself on having a rather clean tank this time around - coincidentally, I've had minimal growth in all my zoas and corals as well. My old system, before I ran RODI and watched my feed amounts closely, grew softies like CRAZY. A frag with 8 polyps would be softball-sized in 4 to 6 months, easy, and basketball within a year. Now, not nearly so much. Half of my zoa frags have not put out new polyps in months. My GSP is the only thing that's grown much, going from a 2-inch-long-by-2polyp-wide strip of polyps to maybe 6-7 square inches in the last 10 months. In other words, minimal. I really like having a clean tank and I do feed my fish twice a day (and there are some leftovers that get picked up by the sock) but I only have to polish my glass once every 2 weeks or so. Between the start of the new year and Valentine's Day, I'm going to pick up a few more snails and start shutting my skimmer down for periods of time to help keep some nutrients around. We'll see what happens.

01/09/2015, 06:44 AM	#7
davidfrances Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Parkville, MO Posts: 666	My 250G softie tank. I run my skimmer very dry, and run 2 cups each of GFO and GAC in a reactor, and change it every 3 weeks. The tank is dominated by xenia, anthelia, zoos, palys, 'shrooms, and sea fans. I have a few small SPS and LPS, and a couple of clams. This tank has been running for over 2 years now. I added the GFO/GAC reactor back in November, and softie growth has slowed, but the few SPS's I have seem to be doing much better. I may gradually shift to SPS's if the softies decline. The water in my 120G frag system is very dirty. In fact, after water changes on my DT's, I recycle that water into my frag system. I grow mostly softies for trade to my LFS's.

01/09/2015, 08:59 AM	#9
hart24601 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 633	IMO you can't really lump everything together under softies to make a statement like that. In my personal experience soft coral like zoas do great with ULNS and there seem to be lots of zeo tanks with amazing zoas. But whenever I have tried to keep xenia it melts away when my nutrients drop, but toadstools I have kept in ULNS alright, so I think it really just depends on the species.

01/09/2015, 09:40 AM	#10
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	I would venture to guess that pristein water would be better for softies if the tank were fed frequently enough. Personaly, my tank has undetectable nitrates, and I'm dropping my phosphates, but i put in a mL of oyster feast every day during the day, and 2mL after lights out. My softies LPS and SPS are all doing good, colorful and growing. I do vodka dose to counteract frequent feedings. Plus I feed my fish once a day, shich would also provide some food f or the coral. I can't speak in general, but for me, frequent feedings seems to negate any negative effects o low nutrient water on my soft coral.

01/09/2015, 01:35 PM	#13
3dees Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago burbs Posts: 793	I can't get any nitrates in my 120 gal. softie/lps tank. I had a Kenya, clove polyps, and a colony of zoas just melt away. all my leathers, mushrooms and lps are doing fine. I agree that some corals prefer a tank that just a bit dirty.

01/09/2015, 01:48 PM	#14
cloak Moved On Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Stockton, CA Posts: 14,854	FWIW, I've seen plenty of tanks where Xenia and various sps corals were placed right next to each other and both of them were thriving under the same conditions. Two corals from opposite sides of the track living it up to the fullest, who would have thought?

01/09/2015, 02:08 PM	#16
SGT_York Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,746	The response is certainly, it applies to all types of coral even SPS, just depends on the level that you consider dirty. Also there is the whole organic vs inorganic tests. In summary the nutrients test results are not what is important but they do indicate a correlation.

01/09/2015, 03:14 PM	#19
whosurcaddie Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,354	My nitrate reading was sitting at zero for a while after combating a bryopsis outbreak. I just raised them back to 5ppm with calcium nitrate. I just dissolved a 1/2 teaspoon of calcium nitrate into a gallon of water. I added half the gallon then an hour later added the other half which raised my tanks nitrates to 5ppm. Something to consider if your having a problem raising nitrates. Phosphate though I think you could just feed more.