Cycling and testing

\Clownfish/ · 01/19/2015, 10:06 AM

Just wondering how do you know the cycle has ended. I have read around for quite some time and some sites state that even if your ammonia, nitrites, nitrates are 0 that your tank could still be cycling so I'm a bit lost here. I was also wondering when should I start testing water parameters? I haven't set up my tank yet but just wanted to read a lot before I do start.

Goldndoodle · 01/19/2015, 10:16 AM

I am in the process of cycling now. This is the guide I am following, and it seems to be working well. Dr Tim's Fishless Cycling

You know the cycle has ended, when you can bring your ammonia level up to 2 mg/L, and within 24 hrs it goes back to 0 mg/L.

I am NOT using the Dr Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria - just the ammonia chloride solution. I live in an area where temps are below freezing, so the nitrifying bacteria can not be shipped to me - and no one sells it in a nice warm store around here.

thegrun · 01/19/2015, 10:17 AM

Read through the "How to set up a tank" stickies at the top of this forum, they contain a wealth of information. As to your question, the cycle is complete when both the ammonia and nitrites drop to zero, indicating that your tank has a sufficient bacteria population to convert fish waste (ammonia) to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates. In most tanks the nitrates will not drop without performing a large water change at the end of the cycle. I think it is a good idea to start testing daily or every other day for ammonia and nitrites when you set up a tank. This will help you see your cycle progress, giving you a better understanding of the process and also get you familiar with water tests in general. After the cycle I would continue to test weekly for ammonia and nitrites and also add in nitrate testing. After a couple of months you should no longer need to test for ammonia or nitrites unless you suspect a problem.

\Clownfish/ · 02/02/2015, 04:54 PM

Have a question, I recently set my tank up on the 31st of last month and test my parameter on day one and two. The only thing that was low was he Ph which is 7.8. I currently have cured live rock and live sand. Is that enough for that tank to cycle or do I need to do the shrimp method or ghost feed to start the cycle? Also I was planning on going with the shrimp method, but how can I go about doing this? How long does it stay in the tank? What should I be testing?

Goldndoodle · 02/02/2015, 05:07 PM

Those are all the questions that lead me to following Dr Tim's Fishless Cycle (link in my post above).

Beyond your questions ... how many shrimp should you use? (1 per 50 gallons? 1 per 200 gallons?)
How much should you ghost feed?
What happens if you put too much food / shrimp in? Or not enough?

Ammonia dosing takes all the guess work out of it. You count the number of drops of ammonia you put in, and check a lot to know you've got exactly 2 - 3 mg/L of ammonia to start. And once the cycle reduces ammonia and nitrite readings to 0, you redose to 2 - 3 mg/L to make sure you have enough bacteria to process ammonia down to 0 within 24 hours - then you KNOW your cycle is done, and you're ready for fish to start peeing and pooping in your tank.

But yes, you have to put something in there to start the cycle. Either something to rot (shrimp or food) to start producing ammonia. Or straight ammonia by dosing it in the tank.

Mishri · 02/02/2015, 05:15 PM

Cycling is one of those things I think people do very peculiarly these days.

Anytime you don't have ammonia in your tank for an extended period the bacteria will begin dying off. In a normal tank your fish and corals are all constantly spitting out ammonia. and you have enough bacteria to break it down at an equal rate.

So, once you add your first fish and aren't adding any new ammonia to your system, you end up with enough bacteria for that one fish. You add a 2nd fish later, and now it needs to build up the bacteria for the 2nd fish's ammonia (corals don't do enough to really matter normally). So you'll possibly see ammonia, you'll surely see nitrite and nitrate.

If you try to stock to rapidly then you'll have ammonia appearing on your tests not good.

With live rock you should have bacteria in the system, (Things are living/dying on that rock, generating some ammonia) 1 fish to start will run it through the cycle just fine without stressing the fish too much. You'll likely not even see ammonia unless you start with a messy/large fish, so I usually start with a smaller fish just to be sure I've got a good base.

The only time I'd consider doing the ammonia method is if I had no live rock or very little to start with. Even then I've done cycles with the tank raised fish and they don't get stressed at all.

I would not recommend the shrimp method. It's just not as controlled as the ammonia method, it's just too much ammonia and then not enough once you pull it out.

Do whichever you feel like doing, but always add fish slowly. Make sure over a couple of weeks things are good water parameter wise then add another. patience is the key. You spike things and that's when you see a tank "cycle" algae blooms and die off and things like that. My last tank I setup I got a tiny bit of cyano the first couple of weeks then it was gone, after adding my fish. And it was because I added to quickly (I moved across town, setup a whole new tank for them rather than trying to move things all together).. so it was with live rock, but all new water and substrate(the substrate likely being the culprit, plus likely losing some of the beneficial bacteria). had a leopard wrasse, a flame hawkfish, a black cap basslet... they all lived through the move and didn't seem stressed at all. I also went from a 24gallon to a 75 gallon.

Azedenkae · 02/02/2015, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by \Clownfish/

Just wondering how do you know the cycle has ended. I have read around for quite some time and some sites state that even if your ammonia, nitrites, nitrates are 0 that your tank could still be cycling so I'm a bit lost here. I was also wondering when should I start testing water parameters? I haven't set up my tank yet but just wanted to read a lot before I do start.

Hey mate, you are right - just because ammonia and stuff is zero does not necessarily mean that you are cycled. After all, even at low amounts, there could be enough bacteria to eventually break down stuff, but if we add a lot of nutrient again there may not be enough. Your cycle ends when your filtration system can handle the eventual bioload. To test that, all you have to do is something like ghostfeed your aquarium and if your parameters zero out relatively quickly (basically within half a day or so), and there is no large spike in parameters, then you are set.

\Clownfish/ · 02/02/2015, 07:04 PM

So I just went everywhere looking for ammonia and came out empty. I now plan on buying two jumbo shrimps and adding them to the tank inside a sock thingy and wait till the shrimp start to decompose so I can pull them out of the tank.

danielmitchell · 02/02/2015, 08:46 PM

you can just put some fish food in there to create ammonia, you just need an ammonia reading of .2 so you can see if it diminishes over a day

Fogvalley · 02/02/2015, 09:01 PM

I started with hidden Mouse in my pump.

that was pretty nasty, then I dropped a shrimp in there, I never took it out.

then I added some uncured rock. I started with a mix of cured and dry. It has been my best experience so far as far as cycling goes this ones been the most entertaining. No way I'm dumping 145 gallons total and a 5 gal bucket of salt cause a small mammal exploded in my tank. I have been "cycling since November 17. And it has been up and down. But now I need some salt for a wc and a couple dominos. My nitrates are pretty high right now but nothing I wouldn't expect. Just don't be in hurry. I always end up cycling in the winter and just wait till spring dfs won't ship anything good right now anyways. Just don't be in a hurry I know I just said it but seriously. A tank with rock and snails is cooler then the one your friend doesn't have. Plus 1" frags don't become softballs very fast either.

Mishri · 02/02/2015, 09:45 PM

If you use uncured live rock that will cycle the tank on it's own. It's also an effective means, don't bother with shrimp and ammonia.. you'll see big spikes across the board from uncured rock.

My last tank I used uncured live rock in I'm still "cycling" it... I got the rock 2 years ago. still getting algae blooms. hahaha. (24 gallon aquapod) no live stock. just macro algae. things grow and die over and over again on that stuff. most people once it runs clean and they have 0-s they'll start adding things.. but it isn't done yet...

I think when you do something like that things get really stable after 5 years. Now how's that for patience?

BigBlueTang · 02/02/2015, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mishri

Cycling is one of those things I think people do very peculiarly these days.

Anytime you don't have ammonia in your tank for an extended period the bacteria will begin dying off. In a normal tank your fish and corals are all constantly spitting out ammonia. and you have enough bacteria to break it down at an equal rate.

So, once you add your first fish and aren't adding any new ammonia to your system, you end up with enough bacteria for that one fish. You add a 2nd fish later, and now it needs to build up the bacteria for the 2nd fish's ammonia (corals don't do enough to really matter normally). So you'll possibly see ammonia, you'll surely see nitrite and nitrate.

If you try to stock to rapidly then you'll have ammonia appearing on your tests not good.

With live rock you should have bacteria in the system, (Things are living/dying on that rock, generating some ammonia) 1 fish to start will run it through the cycle just fine without stressing the fish too much. You'll likely not even see ammonia unless you start with a messy/large fish, so I usually start with a smaller fish just to be sure I've got a good base.

The only time I'd consider doing the ammonia method is if I had no live rock or very little to start with. Even then I've done cycles with the tank raised fish and they don't get stressed at all.

I would not recommend the shrimp method. It's just not as controlled as the ammonia method, it's just too much ammonia and then not enough once you pull it out.

Do whichever you feel like doing, but always add fish slowly. Make sure over a couple of weeks things are good water parameter wise then add another. patience is the key. You spike things and that's when you see a tank "cycle" algae blooms and die off and things like that. My last tank I setup I got a tiny bit of cyano the first couple of weeks then it was gone, after adding my fish. And it was because I added to quickly (I moved across town, setup a whole new tank for them rather than trying to move things all together).. so it was with live rock, but all new water and substrate(the substrate likely being the culprit, plus likely losing some of the beneficial bacteria). had a leopard wrasse, a flame hawkfish, a black cap basslet... they all lived through the move and didn't seem stressed at all. I also went from a 24gallon to a 75 gallon.

The reason people do a fishless cycle these days, is because even though it may seem like it is not stressful to the fish, it is. IMHO, it is very inhumane. You are torchering your fish with something that burns its gills when it breathes! Many people do support my opinion, and to the OP, sorry for hijacking your thread
Have fun Reefers!

\Clownfish/ · 02/02/2015, 09:55 PM

I am using cured live rock and I have 27 lbs, live sand, and 20 gallons of water. I just started thinking about the shrimp method, shrimp may be different from a bottle of ammonia. Ammonia is ammonia, but the shrimp will be adding more than just the ammonia because it is actuall6 food which will help the bacteria grow and reproduce. Isn't that what we are trying to achieve during the cycle? :/

Fogvalley · 02/02/2015, 10:14 PM

Yes you just need to introduce amonia threw liquid shrimp ghost feeding. Is brings nitrites and nitrates. I'd only use a shrimp piece or a popcorn shrimp in a 20 just me though

Azedenkae · 02/02/2015, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by \Clownfish/

I am using cured live rock and I have 27 lbs, live sand, and 20 gallons of water. I just started thinking about the shrimp method, shrimp may be different from a bottle of ammonia. Ammonia is ammonia, but the shrimp will be adding more than just the ammonia because it is actuall6 food which will help the bacteria grow and reproduce. Isn't that what we are trying to achieve during the cycle? :/

Yeah it is. I am not sure why some people think bacteria subsists (better) on just basic molecules.

I mean sure eventually a lot of bacteria would convert the more basic molecules (CO2, NH3, H2O, etc.) to more complex ones (amino acids and stuff), but bacteria do better when provided the more complex ones from the getgo. Which of course, is what we'd be providing regardless once we start feeding, and I think it's better to replicate that early on, rather than using pure ammonia.

After all, I cycled my tank with seafood, and it was done in 10 days, so there we go.

Goldndoodle · 02/03/2015, 09:13 AM

Sources of pure ammonia if you're still interested ...

Every ACE in the country sells this - LINK - you can buy a bottle of it at your local ACE Hardware for $2.50, you don't need to buy a case online - this is what I'm using.

Amazon also has the Dr. Tim's Ammonia Chloride - LINK (I started by using this but it took a LOT of this to raise the ammonia levels to 2 mg/L. I switched to the ACE Ammonia and it took a lot less to raise the ammonia level to 2 mg/L - obviously the ACE ammonia is much stronger.)

Based on my research ... you're correct that adding the shrimp or food, will add other components to the water. But the denitrifying bacteria you're trying to get going only needs one thing - nitrogen. Ammonia supplies that in abundance. The other components that a rotting shrimp or food provides is what's going to feed algae blooms, and cause your water to cloud.

Good luck with which ever direction you decide to take. But you do need to add some form of ammonia to get the cycle moving. I read a great article about the myths of cycling but I can't find the article again - I wanted to post the link for you. I remember one of the lines being something like - "if you fill a glass box with water and salt and let it sit for 6 weeks, it will do nothing, and it will not be ready to support any life. You have to add a source of ammonia to start the process."

Mishri · 02/03/2015, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBlueTang

The reason people do a fishless cycle these days, is because even though it may seem like it is not stressful to the fish, it is. IMHO, it is very inhumane. You are torchering your fish with something that burns its gills when it breathes! Many people do support my opinion, and to the OP, sorry for hijacking your thread
Have fun Reefers!

That simply isn't true. I think many people on the forums are confused about ammonia and it's export.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/

macro algae takes up a substantial amount of ammonia. I love having lots of macro algae. This is part of the reason why I usually never even see ammonia show up on a test. 1lbs of calurpa (wet) can take up .75ppm per day. Surfaces in your aquarium build up bacteria, not the water itself. - Don't clean your glass when you add a new fish. It might be relatively minor, but I'll take all that I can get.

If you have low PH and you test ammonia at 0, you could still be harming your fish from ammoniam, letting your PH drop can be "inhumane".

If your ammonia gets above .1ppm you should be trying to fix it. If you add fish too quickly, even after you've done a "cycle" you could see ammonia hit over .1ppm.

A combination of cured live rock(with actual life on it), macro algae, and large water volume ensures a fish cycle can be harmless to the fish. There is no reason if i'm not getting over .1ppm (make sure tests are accurate) to think I'm being inhumane to my fish.

01/19/2015, 10:06 AM	#1
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	Cycling and testing Just wondering how do you know the cycle has ended. I have read around for quite some time and some sites state that even if your ammonia, nitrites, nitrates are 0 that your tank could still be cycling so I'm a bit lost here. I was also wondering when should I start testing water parameters? I haven't set up my tank yet but just wanted to read a lot before I do start. __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

01/19/2015, 10:16 AM	#2
Goldndoodle Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Monroe MI Posts: 576	I am in the process of cycling now. This is the guide I am following, and it seems to be working well. Dr Tim's Fishless Cycling You know the cycle has ended, when you can bring your ammonia level up to 2 mg/L, and within 24 hrs it goes back to 0 mg/L. I am NOT using the Dr Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria - just the ammonia chloride solution. I live in an area where temps are below freezing, so the nitrifying bacteria can not be shipped to me - and no one sells it in a nice warm store around here. __________________ I don't want an "instant reef" ... I want a successful reef! 120G DT: dual Jebao WP25s, (3) 48" BML LED fixtures, APEX controller 50G sump: Jebao DC9000, Finnex 300 heaters, SCA Skimmer, fuge

02/02/2015, 04:54 PM	#4
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	Have a question, I recently set my tank up on the 31st of last month and test my parameter on day one and two. The only thing that was low was he Ph which is 7.8. I currently have cured live rock and live sand. Is that enough for that tank to cycle or do I need to do the shrimp method or ghost feed to start the cycle? Also I was planning on going with the shrimp method, but how can I go about doing this? How long does it stay in the tank? What should I be testing? __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

02/02/2015, 05:07 PM	#5
Goldndoodle Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Monroe MI Posts: 576	Those are all the questions that lead me to following Dr Tim's Fishless Cycle (link in my post above). Beyond your questions ... how many shrimp should you use? (1 per 50 gallons? 1 per 200 gallons?) How much should you ghost feed? What happens if you put too much food / shrimp in? Or not enough? Ammonia dosing takes all the guess work out of it. You count the number of drops of ammonia you put in, and check a lot to know you've got exactly 2 - 3 mg/L of ammonia to start. And once the cycle reduces ammonia and nitrite readings to 0, you redose to 2 - 3 mg/L to make sure you have enough bacteria to process ammonia down to 0 within 24 hours - then you KNOW your cycle is done, and you're ready for fish to start peeing and pooping in your tank. But yes, you have to put something in there to start the cycle. Either something to rot (shrimp or food) to start producing ammonia. Or straight ammonia by dosing it in the tank. __________________ I don't want an "instant reef" ... I want a successful reef! 120G DT: dual Jebao WP25s, (3) 48" BML LED fixtures, APEX controller 50G sump: Jebao DC9000, Finnex 300 heaters, SCA Skimmer, fuge Last edited by Goldndoodle; 02/02/2015 at 05:14 PM.

02/02/2015, 07:04 PM	#8
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	So I just went everywhere looking for ammonia and came out empty. I now plan on buying two jumbo shrimps and adding them to the tank inside a sock thingy and wait till the shrimp start to decompose so I can pull them out of the tank. __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

01/19/2015, 10:17 AM	#3
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	Read through the "How to set up a tank" stickies at the top of this forum, they contain a wealth of information. As to your question, the cycle is complete when both the ammonia and nitrites drop to zero, indicating that your tank has a sufficient bacteria population to convert fish waste (ammonia) to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates. In most tanks the nitrates will not drop without performing a large water change at the end of the cycle. I think it is a good idea to start testing daily or every other day for ammonia and nitrites when you set up a tank. This will help you see your cycle progress, giving you a better understanding of the process and also get you familiar with water tests in general. After the cycle I would continue to test weekly for ammonia and nitrites and also add in nitrate testing. After a couple of months you should no longer need to test for ammonia or nitrites unless you suspect a problem.

02/02/2015, 05:15 PM	#6
Mishri Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Great Falls, MT Posts: 1,404	Cycling is one of those things I think people do very peculiarly these days. Anytime you don't have ammonia in your tank for an extended period the bacteria will begin dying off. In a normal tank your fish and corals are all constantly spitting out ammonia. and you have enough bacteria to break it down at an equal rate. So, once you add your first fish and aren't adding any new ammonia to your system, you end up with enough bacteria for that one fish. You add a 2nd fish later, and now it needs to build up the bacteria for the 2nd fish's ammonia (corals don't do enough to really matter normally). So you'll possibly see ammonia, you'll surely see nitrite and nitrate. If you try to stock to rapidly then you'll have ammonia appearing on your tests not good. With live rock you should have bacteria in the system, (Things are living/dying on that rock, generating some ammonia) 1 fish to start will run it through the cycle just fine without stressing the fish too much. You'll likely not even see ammonia unless you start with a messy/large fish, so I usually start with a smaller fish just to be sure I've got a good base. The only time I'd consider doing the ammonia method is if I had no live rock or very little to start with. Even then I've done cycles with the tank raised fish and they don't get stressed at all. I would not recommend the shrimp method. It's just not as controlled as the ammonia method, it's just too much ammonia and then not enough once you pull it out. Do whichever you feel like doing, but always add fish slowly. Make sure over a couple of weeks things are good water parameter wise then add another. patience is the key. You spike things and that's when you see a tank "cycle" algae blooms and die off and things like that. My last tank I setup I got a tiny bit of cyano the first couple of weeks then it was gone, after adding my fish. And it was because I added to quickly (I moved across town, setup a whole new tank for them rather than trying to move things all together).. so it was with live rock, but all new water and substrate(the substrate likely being the culprit, plus likely losing some of the beneficial bacteria). had a leopard wrasse, a flame hawkfish, a black cap basslet... they all lived through the move and didn't seem stressed at all. I also went from a 24gallon to a 75 gallon.

02/02/2015, 08:46 PM	#9
danielmitchell Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: QLD, Gold Coast, Australia Posts: 38	you can just put some fish food in there to create ammonia, you just need an ammonia reading of .2 so you can see if it diminishes over a day __________________ "Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing"

02/02/2015, 09:01 PM	#10
Fogvalley Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: NW Kanas Posts: 107	I started with hidden Mouse in my pump. that was pretty nasty, then I dropped a shrimp in there, I never took it out. then I added some uncured rock. I started with a mix of cured and dry. It has been my best experience so far as far as cycling goes this ones been the most entertaining. No way I'm dumping 145 gallons total and a 5 gal bucket of salt cause a small mammal exploded in my tank. I have been "cycling since November 17. And it has been up and down. But now I need some salt for a wc and a couple dominos. My nitrates are pretty high right now but nothing I wouldn't expect. Just don't be in hurry. I always end up cycling in the winter and just wait till spring dfs won't ship anything good right now anyways. Just don't be in a hurry I know I just said it but seriously. A tank with rock and snails is cooler then the one your friend doesn't have. Plus 1" frags don't become softballs very fast either.

02/02/2015, 09:45 PM	#11
Mishri Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Great Falls, MT Posts: 1,404	If you use uncured live rock that will cycle the tank on it's own. It's also an effective means, don't bother with shrimp and ammonia.. you'll see big spikes across the board from uncured rock. My last tank I used uncured live rock in I'm still "cycling" it... I got the rock 2 years ago. still getting algae blooms. hahaha. (24 gallon aquapod) no live stock. just macro algae. things grow and die over and over again on that stuff. most people once it runs clean and they have 0-s they'll start adding things.. but it isn't done yet... I think when you do something like that things get really stable after 5 years. Now how's that for patience?

02/02/2015, 09:55 PM	#13
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	I am using cured live rock and I have 27 lbs, live sand, and 20 gallons of water. I just started thinking about the shrimp method, shrimp may be different from a bottle of ammonia. Ammonia is ammonia, but the shrimp will be adding more than just the ammonia because it is actuall6 food which will help the bacteria grow and reproduce. Isn't that what we are trying to achieve during the cycle? :/ __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

02/02/2015, 10:14 PM	#14
Fogvalley Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: NW Kanas Posts: 107	Yes you just need to introduce amonia threw liquid shrimp ghost feeding. Is brings nitrites and nitrates. I'd only use a shrimp piece or a popcorn shrimp in a 20 just me though

02/03/2015, 09:13 AM	#16
Goldndoodle Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Monroe MI Posts: 576	Sources of pure ammonia if you're still interested ... Every ACE in the country sells this - LINK - you can buy a bottle of it at your local ACE Hardware for $2.50, you don't need to buy a case online - this is what I'm using. Amazon also has the Dr. Tim's Ammonia Chloride - LINK (I started by using this but it took a LOT of this to raise the ammonia levels to 2 mg/L. I switched to the ACE Ammonia and it took a lot less to raise the ammonia level to 2 mg/L - obviously the ACE ammonia is much stronger.) Based on my research ... you're correct that adding the shrimp or food, will add other components to the water. But the denitrifying bacteria you're trying to get going only needs one thing - nitrogen. Ammonia supplies that in abundance. The other components that a rotting shrimp or food provides is what's going to feed algae blooms, and cause your water to cloud. Good luck with which ever direction you decide to take. But you do need to add some form of ammonia to get the cycle moving. I read a great article about the myths of cycling but I can't find the article again - I wanted to post the link for you. I remember one of the lines being something like - "if you fill a glass box with water and salt and let it sit for 6 weeks, it will do nothing, and it will not be ready to support any life. You have to add a source of ammonia to start the process." __________________ I don't want an "instant reef" ... I want a successful reef! 120G DT: dual Jebao WP25s, (3) 48" BML LED fixtures, APEX controller 50G sump: Jebao DC9000, Finnex 300 heaters, SCA Skimmer, fuge Last edited by Goldndoodle; 02/03/2015 at 09:38 AM.