Perplexed with tank issue - Please read. Thanks!

GCosio · 01/24/2015, 08:04 PM

Folks I hope this message finds you all well. This is my first post on reef central, although I have been following it for years. I really enjoy the hobby and enjoy reading your posts.

A couple of months ago I received my first reef tank. My wife and I have actually been in the hobby for over a year with her tank.

I started cycling my tank as soon as I received it, adding colony to the tank. Several weeks after setting up I managed to complete my first cycle and had all my levels hit zero (NO4, NO3, PO4).

I slowly began adding livestock. Initially I started with a handful of chromis and clean up crew. As I expanded fish and corals I watched my levels closely to make sure I wasn't overloading the tank. I actually log all my tests to keep a track of all testing results for both of our tanks.

I reached a point where my nitrates began to become a problem so I installed separate matrix and purigen reactors to compliment my rowaphos reactor. The nitrate levels came down in about a week. I also use an ATO with an RO reservoir.

I began adding more fish and corals, for the most part everything went well. All the Corals are doing great, some are even growing.

However, I went berzerk one weekend and added a bunch of fish to the tank (over 10) at one shot. Unfortunately this created an adverse effect on the tank.

All my levels remained good, see below, however, all my fish started to die off.

I continued to check my levels and although everything appeared to be good, the fish kept passing. At this stage as you can imagine I am somewhat frustrated as I am unable to determine why the fish are not able to survive. I regular add plankton and copiepods to my tank every week. I also have an oxygen stone in the sump to ensure there is enough oxygen. Additionally I even feed the fish caulerpa atleast twice a week. My tank has no algae and despite the issues with the fish the corals are flourishing.

I just did my first 20% water change in the hopes that the issue was being caused by something other than NO4/NO3/PO4. Unfortunately nothing changed and fish keep passing.

Any thoughts or ideas? I really appreciate the help....

Tank - 265g
Sump - 40G
Skimmer - Reef Octopus 3000
Berlin style sump with Hang on refuge
Phosphate, Matrix and Purigen reactors in sump

Levels - using Apex for pH and Salifert for everything else
pH 8.07
Ammonia - 0 PPM
Nitrate - 2PPM
Phosphate - .03
Magnesium - 1410
Alk - 10.5
Calcium - 460
Salinity - 1.025

Airborne12B · 01/24/2015, 08:32 PM

What are your' quarantine procedures? Maybe something went wrong on that end.

GCosio · 01/24/2015, 08:39 PM

Thank you for the reply!

I havent been able to build a quarantine tank yet. All of the livestock came from LFS I have been using with my wifes tank for sometime and never had an issue.

All fish were drip accilimated for atleast an hour before being placed into the tank.

Ironically we also bought fish from the same LFS for my wifes tank. We drip acclimated those fish in the same manner but didnt have any issues. Those fish as I recall were in the same tank system as the livestock I placed in my tank.

I dont think there was a problem with the livestock. I do think the issue is with my tank, I am just trying to find out what I am overlooking.

ShannyG · 01/24/2015, 08:44 PM

An hour seems like a loooong time to acclimate. I always think it's best to err on the side of getting them out of the bag quickly. I never acclimate for more than 15 min.

killinit123 · 01/24/2015, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GCosio

Thank you for the reply!

I havent been able to build a quarantine tank yet. All of the livestock came from LFS I have been using with my wifes tank for sometime and never had an issue.

All fish were drip accilimated for atleast an hour before being placed into the tank.

Ironically we also bought fish from the same LFS for my wifes tank. We drip acclimated those fish in the same manner but didnt have any issues. Those fish as I recall were in the same tank system as the livestock I placed in my tank.

I dont think there was a problem with the livestock. I do think the issue is with my tank, I am just trying to find out what I am overlooking.

could it be possible that a previously bought fish had a parasite or disease that laid dormant and you are just now seeing the result of it? this could have been form adding 10 fish at once getting them stressed and then the disease/parasite came out in full effect? When did the LFS get these fish in stock? the only reason i ask is because it could be possible for one fish that was recently added to the LFS tank had something that the fish you put in your wife's tank did not.. these are just theories i am no expert but just trying to give you some ideas as to what could have happened. sorry for your losses i personally treat fish just like any other pets and take it hard when i lose them.

also which fish are the ones dying? is it just the recent adds or fish that have also been in the tank for a while?

rfgonzo · 01/24/2015, 08:56 PM

10 fish at 1 time is a large bio load, this could be one problem. Did you check your ammonia level while fish were dying? What is your temperature at? Also even though you have used the same LFS and never had a problem does not mean you could've encountered one this time around.

Kenmx10 · 01/24/2015, 08:56 PM

It would be helpful to know what you have in your tank and what you added that died.

Airborne12B · 01/24/2015, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShannyG

An hour seems like a loooong time to acclimate. I always think it's best to err on the side of getting them out of the bag quickly. I never acclimate for more than 15 min.

He was talking about drip acclimating not bag floating.

The reason people keep mentioning your' stock is because your parameters look good, and honestly that's the only thing we have that can indicate an issue over the web. So, the only other thing that we can address as a problem are the fish themselves.

1) Did all of the new fish die?
2) Was it only the new fish?
3) Did every fish of a given type die?
4) Do you have water parameter readings after initial die off?
5) Do you have pictures of the dead fish or recall any abnormalities?
6) How long between addition and death?

Sk8r · 01/24/2015, 10:02 PM

If they were in qt, why drip acclimate? Or am I getting the sequence of events wrong? Reason I ask is that acclimation is a somewhat dangerous procedure, and if carried beyond 30 min with shipped fish can cause deaths. From local store, less so, but I still wonder how much water and how long in the bags before acclimation started, etc. Oxygen lack is another possibility: really big tank and I wouldn't expect it, but what kind of flow do you have in there and how much frothing, skimming, etc?

GCosio · 01/24/2015, 10:21 PM

Thanks everyone for the posts. I have responded to each of you in line. Clearly this is frustrating issue.
----

Killinit123 and rfgonzo

---------
Adding that many fish at once was definitely a large bioload, I clearly bit off more than I could chew. I was overly confident of the bioload of my tank and the efficacy of the skimmer and reactors.

The temperature on the tank varies during the day and according to the apex will range from 79.8-80.5.

I dont think it may be something as general as this being my first problem with this LFS as there is no correlation on the fish that have passed.

I did and do check all my parameters regularly (atleast twice a week, if not more) and keep a log. I checked all my params before, during and after the fish passing and there is no discernable change; ammonia at 0 and nitrates typically at 2PPM.

------
Kenmx10
------
I added a number of fish, please see below.

Generally speaking all the fish got along fine except for two tangs. The original set of fish were in place for well over a month with no issue.

Existing fish
1 Magnificent foxface
6 chromis
3 tangs
2 clowns

New fish
3 chromis
6 anthias
3 tangs
1 puffer
2 cleaner wrasse

Fish lost
7 chromis
5 anthias
3 tangs
1 cleaner wrasse
1 clowns

----
Airborne 12b
----

1 and 2)No, all of the new fish did not die. Its been a mix of new and old fish.
3) No, I didnt lose all of one species. I am concerned if I dont lick this problem I will probably lose all fish completely.
4) I take regular readings on an ongoing basis and have data saves for reference. I veen went as far as using multiple test kits trying to identify some abnormality.
5) I dont have pictures of the dead fish. Clearly the fish are stressed as over time with the stress the tangs are now starting to show some signs of ick, which is normal if there are being stressed. The ick is mainly isolated to the tangs, the other fish dont have any signs of ick. As an example the puffer, chromis, clown and remaining anthias arent showing any ick. I do notice significant variances in appetite in some of the fish from one day to the next.
6) a week, I have been losing fish everyday over the last week.

GCosio · 01/24/2015, 10:29 PM

Sk8r, thanks for chiming in.

I currently dont have a QT. The fish were purchased from a local LFS and I started acclimation within an hour of purchasing them.

The tank is an 8ft 265g and I am currently running a Vortech MP40 and Jebao 40 powerheads in the tank. THe flow should be about 6000 gph across the entire tank (excluding main pump).

I dont see any frothing in the display tank or sump. The skimmer runs 24x7 and I usually run it in a wet skim to keep the tank extra clean.

I also run an airstone in the sump.

OrQidz · 01/25/2015, 12:43 AM

I think ich may be the problem. It's not a normal reaction to stress but an infection. Either it was already in your tank and the stress of adding the new fish riled things up, or more likely you brought home ich with the new fish. Some fish are more susceptible than others and that might be why you are seeing that some are showing it visibly and others are not.

I would read up on ich and parasites in the disease forum and decide how to handle this. Good luck and I hope you don't lose more fish.

GCosio · 01/25/2015, 07:10 AM

ORQidz, I kind of agree. I do believe that most fish already have ick and if get stressed will have an outbreak. However looking at my tank most of the fish that have died, didnt have any signs. Secondly I recently dropped in several blue line wrasses to help with the parasites and with in a couple of days the ick problem was becoming alot better.

At this point I think its fair to say that they fish were definitiely stressed and that the ick was a likely symptom of them being stressed by something else and not the root cause.

I am just trying to find out why this is happening. All my params look good, or atleast with in acceptable ranges. So if its not the params, is it something else? Could it be one of my reactors? IS the water too clean? Or is it simply some sort of physiological stress associated with dropping a large number of fish in the tank at one time?

Thanks again for responding......

gone fishin · 01/25/2015, 07:39 AM

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2389659

Here is a link that came out of the fish disease forum. There is a diagnosis section, read and see if any symptoms fit. You cannot rule out an illness in the display since there was not any QT protocol followed.

Another option is aggression in one or multiple fish taking out the others. From your list there seemed to be the potential for this to happen. If you think you can rule out an illness then I would be inclined to go with aggression. you have tested and usually the tests do not lie. just my 2 cents

julie180 · 01/25/2015, 08:41 AM

Ich is not always obvious, its also in their gills. A cleaner wrasse will remove the exterior signs, damaged scales, skin, but not the ich parasite that is under the skin.

GCosio · 01/25/2015, 08:55 AM

Gone fishin, thanks for the response. I definitely think this is mostly stressed induced. There were a couple of tangs that were having some territorial issues. Their behavior in combination with the fact of simply introducing a large group of fish at once probably stressed everyone out.

Julie 180, As a side note the ick didnt show up until well after the fish started dying off. So I dont think the ick was the root cause. I have already started feeding the fish antiparasitic food to combat the internal parasites and the wrasse will likely pick off everything else.

The fish do appear to have rapid gilling at times, but its hard to pinpoint a root cause because all the water params look good. Adding stability tends to help which is making me think that there maybe another underlying issue.

tmz · 01/25/2015, 01:03 PM

I'd bet on disease as the stressor since there is nothing in the chemistry noted that would cause the fish deaths while the corals are doing well and no qt or peventative treatment is used. I qt and provide prevntative treatment for all new specimens; the odds for trouble are ohtterwise high.

This thread may be of interst going forward:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...and+quarantine

01/24/2015, 08:04 PM	#1
GCosio Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13	Perplexed with tank issue - Please read. Thanks! Folks I hope this message finds you all well. This is my first post on reef central, although I have been following it for years. I really enjoy the hobby and enjoy reading your posts. A couple of months ago I received my first reef tank. My wife and I have actually been in the hobby for over a year with her tank. I started cycling my tank as soon as I received it, adding colony to the tank. Several weeks after setting up I managed to complete my first cycle and had all my levels hit zero (NO4, NO3, PO4). I slowly began adding livestock. Initially I started with a handful of chromis and clean up crew. As I expanded fish and corals I watched my levels closely to make sure I wasn't overloading the tank. I actually log all my tests to keep a track of all testing results for both of our tanks. I reached a point where my nitrates began to become a problem so I installed separate matrix and purigen reactors to compliment my rowaphos reactor. The nitrate levels came down in about a week. I also use an ATO with an RO reservoir. I began adding more fish and corals, for the most part everything went well. All the Corals are doing great, some are even growing. However, I went berzerk one weekend and added a bunch of fish to the tank (over 10) at one shot. Unfortunately this created an adverse effect on the tank. All my levels remained good, see below, however, all my fish started to die off. I continued to check my levels and although everything appeared to be good, the fish kept passing. At this stage as you can imagine I am somewhat frustrated as I am unable to determine why the fish are not able to survive. I regular add plankton and copiepods to my tank every week. I also have an oxygen stone in the sump to ensure there is enough oxygen. Additionally I even feed the fish caulerpa atleast twice a week. My tank has no algae and despite the issues with the fish the corals are flourishing. I just did my first 20% water change in the hopes that the issue was being caused by something other than NO4/NO3/PO4. Unfortunately nothing changed and fish keep passing. Any thoughts or ideas? I really appreciate the help.... Tank - 265g Sump - 40G Skimmer - Reef Octopus 3000 Berlin style sump with Hang on refuge Phosphate, Matrix and Purigen reactors in sump Levels - using Apex for pH and Salifert for everything else pH 8.07 Ammonia - 0 PPM Nitrate - 2PPM Phosphate - .03 Magnesium - 1410 Alk - 10.5 Calcium - 460 Salinity - 1.025 Last edited by GCosio; 01/24/2015 at 08:15 PM.

01/24/2015, 08:32 PM	#2
Airborne12B Certified Soul Eater Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 171	What are your' quarantine procedures? Maybe something went wrong on that end. __________________ "Self quotation is the ultimate form of narcissism" -Me Current Tank Info: 79 gal reef, and 150 gal that's not set up ATM.

01/24/2015, 08:56 PM	#6
rfgonzo Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,280	10 fish at 1 time is a large bio load, this could be one problem. Did you check your ammonia level while fish were dying? What is your temperature at? Also even though you have used the same LFS and never had a problem does not mean you could've encountered one this time around. __________________ 210 gal reef, 75 gal Refuge with 55 Gal sump mixed reef 100 gal Reef, 75 gal Refuge with 55 gal sump. SPS/LPS & 100 gal Japanese Dragon Moray eel tank with 40 gal sump 75 gal Brazilian Dragon Mor

01/24/2015, 10:02 PM	#9
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	If they were in qt, why drip acclimate? Or am I getting the sequence of events wrong? Reason I ask is that acclimation is a somewhat dangerous procedure, and if carried beyond 30 min with shipped fish can cause deaths. From local store, less so, but I still wonder how much water and how long in the bags before acclimation started, etc. Oxygen lack is another possibility: really big tank and I wouldn't expect it, but what kind of flow do you have in there and how much frothing, skimming, etc? __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

01/25/2015, 07:39 AM	#14
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2389659 Here is a link that came out of the fish disease forum. There is a diagnosis section, read and see if any symptoms fit. You cannot rule out an illness in the display since there was not any QT protocol followed. Another option is aggression in one or multiple fish taking out the others. From your list there seemed to be the potential for this to happen. If you think you can rule out an illness then I would be inclined to go with aggression. you have tested and usually the tests do not lie. just my 2 cents __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

01/24/2015, 08:39 PM	#3
GCosio Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13	Thank you for the reply! I havent been able to build a quarantine tank yet. All of the livestock came from LFS I have been using with my wifes tank for sometime and never had an issue. All fish were drip accilimated for atleast an hour before being placed into the tank. Ironically we also bought fish from the same LFS for my wifes tank. We drip acclimated those fish in the same manner but didnt have any issues. Those fish as I recall were in the same tank system as the livestock I placed in my tank. I dont think there was a problem with the livestock. I do think the issue is with my tank, I am just trying to find out what I am overlooking.

01/24/2015, 08:44 PM	#4
ShannyG Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 212	An hour seems like a loooong time to acclimate. I always think it's best to err on the side of getting them out of the bag quickly. I never acclimate for more than 15 min.

01/24/2015, 08:56 PM	#7
Kenmx10 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Charleston S.C. Posts: 771	It would be helpful to know what you have in your tank and what you added that died.

01/24/2015, 10:21 PM	#10
GCosio Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13	Thanks everyone for the posts. I have responded to each of you in line. Clearly this is frustrating issue. ---- Killinit123 and rfgonzo --------- Adding that many fish at once was definitely a large bioload, I clearly bit off more than I could chew. I was overly confident of the bioload of my tank and the efficacy of the skimmer and reactors. The temperature on the tank varies during the day and according to the apex will range from 79.8-80.5. I dont think it may be something as general as this being my first problem with this LFS as there is no correlation on the fish that have passed. I did and do check all my parameters regularly (atleast twice a week, if not more) and keep a log. I checked all my params before, during and after the fish passing and there is no discernable change; ammonia at 0 and nitrates typically at 2PPM. ------ Kenmx10 ------ I added a number of fish, please see below. Generally speaking all the fish got along fine except for two tangs. The original set of fish were in place for well over a month with no issue. Existing fish 1 Magnificent foxface 6 chromis 3 tangs 2 clowns New fish 3 chromis 6 anthias 3 tangs 1 puffer 2 cleaner wrasse Fish lost 7 chromis 5 anthias 3 tangs 1 cleaner wrasse 1 clowns ---- Airborne 12b ---- 1 and 2)No, all of the new fish did not die. Its been a mix of new and old fish. 3) No, I didnt lose all of one species. I am concerned if I dont lick this problem I will probably lose all fish completely. 4) I take regular readings on an ongoing basis and have data saves for reference. I veen went as far as using multiple test kits trying to identify some abnormality. 5) I dont have pictures of the dead fish. Clearly the fish are stressed as over time with the stress the tangs are now starting to show some signs of ick, which is normal if there are being stressed. The ick is mainly isolated to the tangs, the other fish dont have any signs of ick. As an example the puffer, chromis, clown and remaining anthias arent showing any ick. I do notice significant variances in appetite in some of the fish from one day to the next. 6) a week, I have been losing fish everyday over the last week.

01/24/2015, 10:29 PM	#11
GCosio Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13	Sk8r, thanks for chiming in. I currently dont have a QT. The fish were purchased from a local LFS and I started acclimation within an hour of purchasing them. The tank is an 8ft 265g and I am currently running a Vortech MP40 and Jebao 40 powerheads in the tank. THe flow should be about 6000 gph across the entire tank (excluding main pump). I dont see any frothing in the display tank or sump. The skimmer runs 24x7 and I usually run it in a wet skim to keep the tank extra clean. I also run an airstone in the sump.

01/25/2015, 12:43 AM	#12
OrQidz Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 825	I think ich may be the problem. It's not a normal reaction to stress but an infection. Either it was already in your tank and the stress of adding the new fish riled things up, or more likely you brought home ich with the new fish. Some fish are more susceptible than others and that might be why you are seeing that some are showing it visibly and others are not. I would read up on ich and parasites in the disease forum and decide how to handle this. Good luck and I hope you don't lose more fish.

01/25/2015, 07:10 AM	#13
GCosio Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13	ORQidz, I kind of agree. I do believe that most fish already have ick and if get stressed will have an outbreak. However looking at my tank most of the fish that have died, didnt have any signs. Secondly I recently dropped in several blue line wrasses to help with the parasites and with in a couple of days the ick problem was becoming alot better. At this point I think its fair to say that they fish were definitiely stressed and that the ick was a likely symptom of them being stressed by something else and not the root cause. I am just trying to find out why this is happening. All my params look good, or atleast with in acceptable ranges. So if its not the params, is it something else? Could it be one of my reactors? IS the water too clean? Or is it simply some sort of physiological stress associated with dropping a large number of fish in the tank at one time? Thanks again for responding......

01/25/2015, 08:41 AM	#15
julie180 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Raymore, MO Posts: 2,556	Ich is not always obvious, its also in their gills. A cleaner wrasse will remove the exterior signs, damaged scales, skin, but not the ich parasite that is under the skin.

01/25/2015, 08:55 AM	#16
GCosio Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13	Gone fishin, thanks for the response. I definitely think this is mostly stressed induced. There were a couple of tangs that were having some territorial issues. Their behavior in combination with the fact of simply introducing a large group of fish at once probably stressed everyone out. Julie 180, As a side note the ick didnt show up until well after the fish started dying off. So I dont think the ick was the root cause. I have already started feeding the fish antiparasitic food to combat the internal parasites and the wrasse will likely pick off everything else. The fish do appear to have rapid gilling at times, but its hard to pinpoint a root cause because all the water params look good. Adding stability tends to help which is making me think that there maybe another underlying issue.

01/25/2015, 01:03 PM	#17
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	I'd bet on disease as the stressor since there is nothing in the chemistry noted that would cause the fish deaths while the corals are doing well and no qt or peventative treatment is used. I qt and provide prevntative treatment for all new specimens; the odds for trouble are ohtterwise high. This thread may be of interst going forward: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...and+quarantine __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.