Little help? Few issues with coral's and high dKH

[RSlayer]

Hello to all, I'm new to the RC and only about 4years with a 55gal and 2 tank crashes due to temp... I want to say that the RC community posting's really helped me out as I got started and is still invaluable to this day! I'm sorry for such a long thread....

I have a question about lowering dKH, I've read may posts advising that the dKH will go down with time and water changes. I screwed up and accidentally shot the dKH up to 0ver 25dKH, CA supplement also supplemented AK... it's been over a year with several water changes and I cannot get the dKH below 13! Checked my R.O. water and here's no AK there, as expected. My salt mix is red sea pro, which has a high dKH at 12dKH, however you would think it would drop below 13 even without regular water changes... My water almost seems to be increasing the AK...?

I also have a few corals that are not happy at all with other similar corals doing great? I supplement Red Sea reef energy, phytochrome, rotifers and copepods/amphipods daily and spot feed some with mysis twice per week.
As for corals I have; SPS - birds nest, cats paw, monti. LPS - duncan and frogspawn - softies - kenya tree's (too many, LOL), cabage leaf, colony of zoo's, button polyps, toadstoll, red mushroom, silver xenia and green star poylys

my xenia is shrinking slowly, my Cats paw is bleaching and looks almost dead and my mushroom was about the size of a quarter last year, now its about 1/8'' in diameter and my toadstool is leaned over and opens and closes (but I have a hawkfish who likes to sit on it)... All other corals are growing and look great!

I use all Red Sea tests and I've checked them against my old API kit and found no discrepancy. I also dose CA, MG, Fe, I and Kent's essential elements weekly with a few colors pro supplements.

I've read about "too clean" of a tank, I've backed down my phosban reactor and cut back on red seas NO3/PO4 management and cut back on water changes.

Tank info: 55gal w/10gal sump, in sump skimmer, UV, posban reactor, 2 10k specturum 2 20k Actinic, eheim pro filter.

Fish info: Yellow tang, 4 blue/green chromis, pair mocha clowns, 1 red firefish, 2 purple firefish, royal gramma, orange spotted goby, tail spot blenny, hawkfish, green mandarin dragonette

parameters are as follow; 1.024.5/33PPT, ph 8.2, NO3/4 0, NO2 0-.05PPM, NO3 2PPM, PO4 <1PPM, dKH 14, CA 400, MG 1280, I .04, Fe - 0, K 350

Does anyone see anything wrong here? Is there something I'm missing, something I screwed up, etc.?

Or is it just as simple as saying "it is what it is"?

Thank you everyone for your help and knowledge!

-RSlayer

[droog]

My experience is limited, when I read this my thoughts were

1] You have quite a lot of fish in a 55g (but parameters seem OK)

2] Your Alk reading seems suspect - can you check against another test kit (Salifert or Hanna Checker). If the reading is correct can you test a fresh batch of ASW next time to do a water change, maybe you have a bad salt batch

3] Lighting? How far from the water surface, when were the bulbs last changed? Is 4x T5 bulb considered normal for a tank this size (what are the dimensions)?

Just my $0.02, interested to see what more experienced folk have to offer

-droog

[RA]

I would suspect it to be coming from your dosing of Kent's essential elements weekly with a few colors pro supplements. Look at what is in your colors pro supplements. Why do you dose all this crap. I would guess that your local fish store had something to do with this.

[Big_Boss_77]

RA probably hit the nail in the head. Check everything you're adding to your tank, odds are if you're dosing alk AND coral color stuff you're probably double dipping.

[Stackemdeep]

Something about adding "more" always appears to be a good idea. I found the opposite to be true. All that dosing may only be benefiting the store selling the stuff. The only thing that goes in my tank is Salt (low KH), RODI, Kalk,Mg,LRF food lightly fed. There is no secret snake oil. I do monitor and supplement Sr and K but by themselves, not as part of a combo additive. But yes, if you are keeping sps I would make some changes to your parameters. Sg I would run 1.026 but no less than 1.025. NO2 should be zero. I assume you said your NO3 was 40 (not clear on your post)? NO3 hould barely indicate on a hobby grade test. K should be at 400 and since you are using RSCP and reporting 350 this may indicate water changes are insufficient. I am estimating you have 28" of fish in a 55g tank? Some folks stay in the 4 gal per inch range so your load would be considered heavy. With that many fish, the food you are putting in there, your PO4 may be too high for those sps to thrive. There are a lot of changes I would make if my intention were to grow sps. Feel free to send me a message if you are interested in some ideas. Good Luck.

[RSlayer]

Thanks for the input/ideas! I have a lot to go one now!

So, I know I'm on the heavy end of fish stock! Being isolated in the Mountains, they're are few saltwater tanks around. When people give up I end up with some of they're stuff, its that or the disposal! I plan on upgrading as I have a small corner leak. Just about everything on my 55gal is rated for over 100gal (i.e. filter, skimmer, reactor, etc.), is that bad? I plan on using my 55gal for a sump/fuge.

The lighting is about 4'' from the surface through a glass cover with cooling fan for the cover. The light fixture is a 48'' 1 year old Corallife.

Here's one very big detail I left out! My nearest LFS is 3hrs away (Reno) then 4.5hrs (Bakersfield/Sacramento)then 7hrs (LA or San Fran) and I don't get out to often. I'm kinda in the middle of no where. I get advise from where ever I can get it. My friend owns the pet shop here in town, he used to be a reefer and he's helpful but I think I have passed his knowledge base.

So, everything I do/done is do according to books, posts, forum's, etc. Anywhere I can get the knowledge. I've been asking about the high dKH for a year now with no success. I've learned that a lot of people/books/information is WRONG! I've learned everything the hard way! I guess that's why I monitor and dose for so many par. Trying to make it perfect so I don't worrying about everything I guess...

Let me clear up my dosing a bit, besides the (2mL) Red Sea reef energy, 4mL of NO3PO4X and food everyday I supplement very small amounts per week based on testing. 5mL of the EE (I didn't see anything in the ingredients that would effect AK, but what do I know. it was recommended somewhere for less water changes). Water change never effects dKH. 5mL of Iodide per week, 30mL Stress Zyme per week. I'm going to run an AK test on all of them. Never any buffer! I dose daily for CA and Mg (keeps it's constant) I use liquid Red Sea Mg and CA only, which is only about a drop or two a day.

I was using Tropic Marin bio active, ran out and changed to red sea. Same problem with both. What is the best salt? What do you guys use and/or any recommendations? I tried to make a separate batch by lowering AK with Muritic Acid and bring ph up without a buffer. Didn't work, botched the whole 25 gal...

I tested against a friends test kit with no discrepancies. I have all of the Red Sea Pro test kits and API and standard Red Sea test kit

Once a month I adjust the parameters for the colors and foundation with red seas coral colors and reef foundation. Which usually is a small adjustment to K and Fe. I hardly ever have to adjust MG,Ph,CA,I, I will say they make a huge difference! My colony of zoos when I got them were all brown, now they're blue/green/orange, moti. was pale pink now is reddish orange with about 1/4'' growth per month...

Let me clear up my parameters too, sorry for the confusion. Temp 78.5 - 80 (usually hovers at 78.5 - 79), Salinity - 1.0245/33PPT, Ph - 8.2, NH3/NH4 - 0, NO2 - 0-0.05 (occasionally tests at .05, too many fish?)NO3 - less than 2 PPM (backed off NO3PO4X), PO4 - less than 1PPM (turned down phosban reactor to increase PO4, too clean of water?), dKH - 14, CA - 400, Mg - 1280, K - 400 (adjusted yesterday), Fe - 0 (can't keep it in the water??), I - 0.04.

last but not least, as a last ditch effort I added sps and lps to the tank to try and get a draw on the dKH, no success 5 months later.

Thank you all for your time! It is greatly appreciated!

-RSlayer

[RSlayer]

RA, Thanks... I forgot 1 supplement that does have a small amount of AK. Purple Tech, although I only dose 10 - 20mL per month. That's the only thing that makes since...

I was under the impression as macro algae grows it consumes AK as with stony polyps. I've tried to increase aid in the growth of macro algae, in which I have been successful, I have lots of purple and bright green macro algae growing everywhere.

[Mcgeezer]

Dosing tons of stuff is a recipe for trouble. Only dose what you can test for. If Xenia is dying, then you definitely have a problem because that stuff can survive anything.

Ca, Dkh, Mg are your primary concerns. Adding amino acids for sps is helpful, but no real point in adding anything else. Regular weekly water changes replace essential elements in your water column.

Keep it simple. Buy a hanna checker for alkalinity because it is very easy to use and you will get an extremely precise reading.

[Stackemdeep]

Quick question. You indicated you live in the mountains. How are you handling your top off water for your evaporation?

[RSlayer]

I have a 10gal ATO (R.O. balanced pH), I loose about 5 gal a week.

I only dose what I can test, I have a test for everything I put into my tank, and check it regularly.

The only reason for the Kent EE is to replace water change's or delay water changes. I only did this due to a post about Too clean of a tank. With my overloaded tank, that kinda makes since. I can simply go back to weekly water changes and my parameters will be exactly the same.

Today I adjusted the NO3 and PO4, by the end of the week they should be back to normal.

Everything a dose I dose individually (as individual as you can get), no compounds.

Now, is there really such thing as too clean? I'm getting mixed opinions. Everything I've read on shrinking xenia is that the tank is too clean.

[Stackemdeep]

How is your R.O. balanced pH? Do you balance the pH and if yes, with what? Or how exactly does this happen if someone else is doing it for you? RODI water is what is recommended and it should not need ph buffer to balance.

[RSlayer]

My R.O. water tests way below 6.0 ph so I add about a teaspoon per 10gal of API's proper Ph, it's not supposed to effect the AK much, since there is none in my R.O. water. Is that wrong? should I not balance the R.O. water before adding to my ATO? I just assumed adding a low pH water to the tank would not be a good idea...

However, Assumptions are the Mother of all F@#$-ups!

Thanks guys for all your input! Its greatly appreciated!

Any good words on salt brands/mixes?

-RSlayer

[Stackemdeep]

This would be your problem with Alkalinity. Any pH buffer raises Alkalinity. The water in your tank already has the buffer in it. What is evaporating is pure water and that is what needs to go back in. Adding buffers to top off water will slowly increase the alkalinity in the tank and may have disastrous results. One solution would be to consider Kalk as your top off and letting that add both your Ca and KH in a balanced way. In any event it would be a wise plan to stop adding that buffer immediately. Over time, it is being added by the gallon while it is not being evaporated out of the tank and appears to be exceeding consumption if you are not dosing any alkalinity supplement. Your salt mix has the buffering capacity built in as well so I would not add this product to the RO before mixing salt. You want to be able to add balanced doses of two part supplement or use the Kalk in the top off to do the same to achieve stable water chemistry.

[nmotz]

In my opinion, the salt mix you choose isn't going to make or break your tank. People get bent out of shape about that sometimes, but there are too many people that have beautiful tanks with cheap ol' instant ocean salt for me to draw the conclusion that I need "designer salt" in my tank to succeed. Wouldn't worry about that at all.

There are some stickies in the "Reef Chemistry" forum that I think would help you out a lot. I know, I know, lots of people hate chemistry, but to learn how ph, alkalinity, calcium, etc.. relate to each other will help you immensely. It will also save you money as you realize that you don't need to add so much to the tank to keep things balanced.

[RA]

Originally Posted by Stackemdeep

This would be your problem with Alkalinity. Any pH buffer raises Alkalinity. The water in your tank already has the buffer in it. What is evaporating is pure water and that is what needs to go back in. Adding buffers to top off water will slowly increase the alkalinity in the tank and may have disastrous results. One solution would be to consider Kalk as your top off and letting that add both your Ca and KH in a balanced way. In any event it would be a wise plan to stop adding that buffer immediately. Over time, it is being added by the gallon while it is not being evaporated out of the tank and appears to be exceeding consumption if you are not dosing any alkalinity supplement. Your salt mix has the buffering capacity built in as well so I would not add this product to the RO before mixing salt. You want to be able to add balanced doses of two part supplement or use the Kalk in the top off to do the same to achieve stable water chemistry.

+1
You can't check the RO/DI water for Ph it should read zero. As mentioned kalk would be a good way to go, but you really shouldn't be dosing all of that stuff, it's going to cause more harm than good.
I wanted to add that a low Ph reading of your RO/DI water does not mean that it is acidic. There are several good articles to read under the Chemistry section.

[Stackemdeep]

Here is a quick explanation of why aeration and or buffering is simply not required for top off water. While I understand the initial reaction of needing to change the pH because it appears low, it is not required nor beneficial.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1740810

[RSlayer]

Thanks guys! Now it all makes since! I feel dumb now! LOL

I've changed out my ATO tank with RO only, 10% change, no additives, food only and changed out my phosban.

Now my parameters are as follows; SG - 1.0245/33PT, Ph -8.2, NH3NH4 - 0, NO2 - .05, NO3 - 4PPM, PO4 - 0.2, dKH - 12.2, CA - 420, Mg 1300, K - 400, I - 0.03, Fe - 0,

I will continue this program, hopefully I can see some improvement in the next few months/weeks. I'll let you know what transpires.

Thanks again!

-RSlayer

[OrQidz]

I agree buffering the RO is your Alk problem. Glad that got figured out.

I see a problem with a non zero nitrite. It seems like it's tested non zero a few times, and you aren't testing ammonia...IMHO if you have measurable nitrite there is a problem (probably bioload) and there could well be measurable ammonia too. It sounds like you've been taking in fish so that is good of you. You might need to up the water changes if things don't settle down with the Alk fix.

edit - sorry just realized you do have zero ammonia. Hopefully things will settle down, maybe a little cycle spiked recently.

[RSlayer]

I think the cycle spiked on me, I (only recently) have tested the nitrite at .05 rather than 0 never higher than 0.1. I've been wondering why, as I've never had a nitrite problem. For now all assume it's the bio-load and spike from the water change. I'll cut back on food a bit too.

I have a couple other questions (filter media replacement, proper feeding and beneficial bacteria), I'll post under a new thread as it's a separate category.

Thanks everyone for their input, I have lots to work on!

I should of just joined in 2011!!

-RSlayer

[danil]

+2 Don't need to buff RO.

[Stackemdeep]

Originally Posted by RSlayer

Thanks guys! Now it all makes since! I feel dumb now! LOL
-RSlayer

No need to feel that way. The mountain comment tipped it off. It is not unusual for that to happen in your area. You are certainly not the first to want to condition mountain water. Glad we were able to help. Cheers.

[RSlayer]

Thanks Paul, not only I'm I in a mountain area but technically in a volcano crater...

I think my GF, with wildlife rehabilitation, and I have a problem taking in animals, we have too many. LOL, same for fish. Guess we're just suckers for animals!

Thanks again! I also posted a new thread trying to gain some information on filtration cleaning/replacement and feeding. If anyone has any info please share.

-RSlayer