Yet another cycling question...

ichthyogeek · 04/25/2015, 08:28 PM

^, yes I've read the fishless cycling threads, yes I've got the test kits out, yes I've read through the appropriate sources (I think)...

So rather than using household ammonia (parents probably would never agree to me cycling rock in my room w/ ammonia, plus I get a headache; no other place in my house is appropriate to cycle the rock anyways), I've decided to use fish food. However, this leads to a few questions...
1) If I'm going to use fish food, then what was the purpose of cleaning my rock with acid, since phosphate's just going to be bound in it anyways? Less phosphate?
2) Rather than just use a few pieces of shrimp, or flakes, wouldn't it be better to add a sampling of each food I'm planning on using (mysis, shrimp, squid, pellets, mussels, clams, dead phytoplankton, etc.) to give the bacteria a chance to develop whatever strains are necessary to eat everything?
3) I've read that bacteria blooms are possible since there's a high nutrient load. Could I instead add some phytoplankton from the bottle (Phtyo-feast live) to hopefully use the organics in the water rather than fuel the waterborn bacteria bloom?
4) Going along with the phytoplankton plan from Q3, would I be able to add copepods or amphipods to the rock after the phyto blooms, so I have a population of pods living in the rock work already established when I set up the tank? This would be post cycle, but pre tank setup.
5) So if the bacteria that reduce nitrate to nitrogen gas live in the deep, oxygen poor crevices of the rock, where do I find that bacteria?
6) Should I prevent light from entering the cycling tub while the cycle occurs? The tub is already filled with rock and water, and I just realized that there will be sunlight entering the exact spot where the tub is for a few hours a day, which will be either really good (higher temp=higher bacteria growth rate), or really bad (more light=more pest algae).

Dkuhlmann · 04/26/2015, 03:04 AM

So you read the stickies about cycling and you are still looking for a shortcut to algae blooms and trying to shortcut adding the nitrifying bacteria?

Sorry but there really is no way of shortcutting the process. If you have a garage or outbuilding where you live I suggest you put the tub of your rock in there and let it cure and cycle. I'm sure your parents won't like the smell of the rock going through the process either

Oh and don't forget the heater to keep it at temp.

jminick2 · 04/26/2015, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ichthyogeek

^, yes I've read the fishless cycling threads, yes I've got the test kits out, yes I've read through the appropriate sources (I think)...

So rather than using household ammonia (parents probably would never agree to me cycling rock in my room w/ ammonia, plus I get a headache; no other place in my house is appropriate to cycle the rock anyways), I've decided to use fish food. However, this leads to a few questions...
1) If I'm going to use fish food, then what was the purpose of cleaning my rock with acid, since phosphate's just going to be bound in it anyways? Less phosphate?
2) Rather than just use a few pieces of shrimp, or flakes, wouldn't it be better to add a sampling of each food I'm planning on using (mysis, shrimp, squid, pellets, mussels, clams, dead phytoplankton, etc.) to give the bacteria a chance to develop whatever strains are necessary to eat everything?
3) I've read that bacteria blooms are possible since there's a high nutrient load. Could I instead add some phytoplankton from the bottle (Phtyo-feast live) to hopefully use the organics in the water rather than fuel the waterborn bacteria bloom?
4) Going along with the phytoplankton plan from Q3, would I be able to add copepods or amphipods to the rock after the phyto blooms, so I have a population of pods living in the rock work already established when I set up the tank? This would be post cycle, but pre tank setup.
5) So if the bacteria that reduce nitrate to nitrogen gas live in the deep, oxygen poor crevices of the rock, where do I find that bacteria?
6) Should I prevent light from entering the cycling tub while the cycle occurs? The tub is already filled with rock and water, and I just realized that there will be sunlight entering the exact spot where the tub is for a few hours a day, which will be either really good (higher temp=higher bacteria growth rate), or really bad (more light=more pest algae).

Not all rock is bound up with phosphates??? So I cant really tell you what the point of your acid bath was. Ive never done one. However just because you feed doesn't mean its going to add phosphates to your rocks. You only need to add a shrimp once to start the cycle then you just wait.

The type of food makes no difference it all turns into the same kind of ammonia.

We don't have the bacteria that exports nitrates on its own in our tanks. That is the point of water changes.

Light is not a big deal during a cycle there is research that UV can kill bacteria in the water column in the very early stages of a cycle but I don't see having much effect for you.

ichthyogeek · 04/26/2015, 09:37 AM

Well while the ammonia is the same, I'm thinking more along the lines of other nutrients like phosphates that bacteria will break down.

Whaaa? Then what's with Paletta's diagrams about live rock making nitrates into nitrogen gas in his book, 'The New Marine aquarium' ??

gone fishin · 04/26/2015, 09:48 AM

Just all speculation on my part.

The small amount of phosphates that will be introduced from the food will more than likely not find its way into the rock but rather be used up by bacteria and or some algae.

Using multiple food sources would more than likely add variety to the mix. Would this be useful I don't know.

The bit of sunlight may not be a problem. If it turns out to be one you could always cover it.

I don't know where the bacteria comes from. I have only added bacteria in a bottle once and did not see any significant difference in a cycle. Typically I put in an ammonia source and the cycle happens.

Good luck just my 2 cents worth.

CStrickland · 04/26/2015, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ichthyogeek

1) If I'm going to use fish food, then what was the purpose of cleaning my rock with acid, since phosphate's just going to be bound in it anyways? Less phosphate? there's a lot more to this than most people want to clutter their brains with, generally speaking it is a "fresh start" for the rock, but not really. The rock cooking threads have a lot of info about the benefits and down-sides but since you already did it, it's kinda moot. yep, less phos. try to keep your water clean going forward so the rocks don't fill up again.
2) Rather than just use a few pieces of shrimp, or flakes, wouldn't it be better to add a sampling of each food I'm planning on using (mysis, shrimp, squid, pellets, mussels, clams, dead phytoplankton, etc.) to give the bacteria a chance to develop whatever strains are necessary to eat everything? I used to think that too, but it doesn't really matter. the bacteria is all over and not nearly as fragile as you'd think
3) I've read that bacteria blooms are possible since there's a high nutrient load. Could I instead add some phytoplankton from the bottle (Phtyo-feast live) to hopefully use the organics in the water rather than fuel the waterborn bacteria bloom? better not to overdo it in the first place, less unnecessary nutrients added to tank
4) Going along with the phytoplankton plan from Q3, would I be able to add copepods or amphipods to the rock after the phyto blooms, so I have a population of pods living in the rock work already established when I set up the tank? This would be post cycle, but pre tank setup.they'll come on their own. This isn't stuff for you to do, it's for the tank to do. Your job is research

5) So if the bacteria that reduce nitrate to nitrogen gas live in the deep, oxygen poor crevices of the rock, where do I find that bacteria? they find you. they also live right out in the open, underneath the nitrifiers. You couldn't stop them from populating the tank if you wanted to
6) Should I prevent light from entering the cycling tub while the cycle occurs? The tub is already filled with rock and water, and I just realized that there will be sunlight entering the exact spot where the tub is for a few hours a day, which will be either really good (higher temp=higher bacteria growth rate), or really bad (more light=more pest algae).I cycled lights on, makes sense to me to run it the same way you will once it's stocked, since the point is to establish a bioload to manage the tank going forward. I fed the tank and did weekly water changes and everything normal except that I didn't put sand in until the detritus accumulation under the rocks started to slow (I didn't bathe in acid), once I had sand I vac'ed it too. Other people don't do that, their tanks cycle too.

I think the nitty gritty of a cycle is kinda interesting, but not really the best use of your reading time in the beginning. If you memorized every article in the world and fully hacked the process you might shave off a week or so, if you got drunk, threw a cheeseburger in the tank, and left for a month the end result is prolly same. Since for most it is the first exposure to the bacterial processes, the cycle is a good place to start learning but I wouldn't over think it. In a few weeks you won't remember which foods you were ghostfeeding and it won't have made any difference.

ichthyogeek · 04/27/2015, 10:31 PM

Alrighty then, I just threw in a chunk of frozen shrimp. Aaaand it looks like I forgot to respond to people's posts...again.

Dkuhlmann, I readily anticipate any and all algae blooms. Lemme try and clarify. Since there's phosphates and all sorts of stuff that algae loves in the cycling tub, wouldn't it be better for me to store that in phytoplankton which copepods and amphipods will then store, making better use of the nutrients, rather than let a pest algae use it? I don't care for cutting the cycle or anything. I can just nuke the tub to 84 degrees F, and that will grow the bacteria extra nice, but that's not really my question...

04/25/2015, 08:28 PM	#1
ichthyogeek Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Arkansas Posts: 742	Yet another cycling question... ^, yes I've read the fishless cycling threads, yes I've got the test kits out, yes I've read through the appropriate sources (I think)... So rather than using household ammonia (parents probably would never agree to me cycling rock in my room w/ ammonia, plus I get a headache; no other place in my house is appropriate to cycle the rock anyways), I've decided to use fish food. However, this leads to a few questions... 1) If I'm going to use fish food, then what was the purpose of cleaning my rock with acid, since phosphate's just going to be bound in it anyways? Less phosphate? 2) Rather than just use a few pieces of shrimp, or flakes, wouldn't it be better to add a sampling of each food I'm planning on using (mysis, shrimp, squid, pellets, mussels, clams, dead phytoplankton, etc.) to give the bacteria a chance to develop whatever strains are necessary to eat everything? 3) I've read that bacteria blooms are possible since there's a high nutrient load. Could I instead add some phytoplankton from the bottle (Phtyo-feast live) to hopefully use the organics in the water rather than fuel the waterborn bacteria bloom? 4) Going along with the phytoplankton plan from Q3, would I be able to add copepods or amphipods to the rock after the phyto blooms, so I have a population of pods living in the rock work already established when I set up the tank? This would be post cycle, but pre tank setup. 5) So if the bacteria that reduce nitrate to nitrogen gas live in the deep, oxygen poor crevices of the rock, where do I find that bacteria? 6) Should I prevent light from entering the cycling tub while the cycle occurs? The tub is already filled with rock and water, and I just realized that there will be sunlight entering the exact spot where the tub is for a few hours a day, which will be either really good (higher temp=higher bacteria growth rate), or really bad (more light=more pest algae).

04/26/2015, 03:04 AM	#2
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	So you read the stickies about cycling and you are still looking for a shortcut to algae blooms and trying to shortcut adding the nitrifying bacteria? Sorry but there really is no way of shortcutting the process. If you have a garage or outbuilding where you live I suggest you put the tub of your rock in there and let it cure and cycle. I'm sure your parents won't like the smell of the rock going through the process either Oh and don't forget the heater to keep it at temp. __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

04/26/2015, 09:48 AM	#5
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	Just all speculation on my part. The small amount of phosphates that will be introduced from the food will more than likely not find its way into the rock but rather be used up by bacteria and or some algae. Using multiple food sources would more than likely add variety to the mix. Would this be useful I don't know. The bit of sunlight may not be a problem. If it turns out to be one you could always cover it. I don't know where the bacteria comes from. I have only added bacteria in a bottle once and did not see any significant difference in a cycle. Typically I put in an ammonia source and the cycle happens. Good luck just my 2 cents worth. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

04/26/2015, 09:37 AM	#4
ichthyogeek Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Arkansas Posts: 742	Well while the ammonia is the same, I'm thinking more along the lines of other nutrients like phosphates that bacteria will break down. Whaaa? Then what's with Paletta's diagrams about live rock making nitrates into nitrogen gas in his book, 'The New Marine aquarium' ??

04/27/2015, 10:31 PM	#7
ichthyogeek Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Arkansas Posts: 742	Alrighty then, I just threw in a chunk of frozen shrimp. Aaaand it looks like I forgot to respond to people's posts...again. Dkuhlmann, I readily anticipate any and all algae blooms. Lemme try and clarify. Since there's phosphates and all sorts of stuff that algae loves in the cycling tub, wouldn't it be better for me to store that in phytoplankton which copepods and amphipods will then store, making better use of the nutrients, rather than let a pest algae use it? I don't care for cutting the cycle or anything. I can just nuke the tub to 84 degrees F, and that will grow the bacteria extra nice, but that's not really my question...