Bioballs vs LiveRock question

donrua · 09/22/2015, 10:39 PM

I have a 30g, no sump possible at this time. HOB Remora skimmer. Been up for 4 months.

For extra help keeping water clean, I'd like to put my cannister to good use. I've read may threads about the topic, but haven't seen something explained.

Many have said that a cannister, particularly with bioballs or similar, is a nitrate factory, hurting my water quality.

I've heard those same folks, or others, suggesting I put in live rock scrabble instead.

Why wouldn't live rock be just as much of a nitrate factory as bioballs? Aren't they both just giving harbor to bacteria?

Many justifications I've seen for sumps has been about ease of upkeep, space for skimmers, etc, but I'm still trying to understand how they help with water quality, and why a cannister cannot be used for a similar purpose, even if it's not as good at it. It's cycling water, you can put what you want in it, what's the deal?

Currently, I've removed all bioballs from cannister, and have two charcoal bags in one tray, and Seachem Purigen in another. Thoughts?

Another piece of feedback that has always confused. People say, "don't use the cannister, have live rock do natural filtration for you". Well I have live rock, 30 lbs of it in the tank, but can't the cannister be used to add more help? My water has seemed cleaner since I added it on.

ebow3d · 09/22/2015, 10:49 PM

The only real issue with a canister is that you have to clean it very regularly. If you do that, it will certainly help to maintain good water quality.

shifty51008 · 09/23/2015, 12:24 AM

I agree if you clean the canister filter regulary they can work well. Bio balls actually work just as good as live rock rubble as long as they are kept under water. If used like a wet dry filter where the bio balls arnt constantly under water they cant convert nitrate to nitrogen gas.

ca1ore · 09/23/2015, 08:13 AM

Well, the pet theory is that because bioballs only grow bacteria on their surface, they just facilitate denitrification meaning nitrate as an 'end product'; whereas, live rock being porous encourages multiple kinds of bacteria including those that enable the reduction of nitrates into nitrogen gas, etc. Thus, said pet theory goes, using bioballs will leave you with higher nitrate levels than will rock. Whether there is any truth to this, I cannot honestly say; though on the off chance it is, I do not use bioballs.

I would also suggest to the OP that the rock in your tank is almost certainly adequate for biological filtration. That the use of the canister is giving you observable 'cleaner' water is probably because it is playing a mechanical role.

leemosh · 09/23/2015, 08:44 AM

Honestly, since you have carbon and purigen in there, I think it's not really any different from running a reactor to help scrub your water, so I'd say keep running it.

Some people like to put live rock rubble in their canister to increase the total amount of live rock in the system, but you have to keep the detritus out or else it will decompose in there and get converted to nitrates. But, it's no more nitrates that you'd have with a sump if you just let the detritus collect there.

I'm not an expert with the denitrification process, but my understanding was that it only happens deeper inside rocks or a sand bed, like more than 2" from the surface, so if your rubble/rocks aren't at least 4" across, they don't really allow for the conversion of nitrates to nitrogen gas.

With a smaller tank, most people just rely on water changes to reduce the nitrates and it works well.

stingeragent · 09/23/2015, 09:29 AM

I started a thread on this called 40b grow out with canister in the main reef discussion forum. Id link it but im on my phone. It can be done, even with filter floss,pads. Im not using it for bio filtration, mainly it acts like a filter sock, but yes clean it weekly.

09/22/2015, 10:39 PM	#1
donrua Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 1	Bioballs vs LiveRock question I have a 30g, no sump possible at this time. HOB Remora skimmer. Been up for 4 months. For extra help keeping water clean, I'd like to put my cannister to good use. I've read may threads about the topic, but haven't seen something explained. Many have said that a cannister, particularly with bioballs or similar, is a nitrate factory, hurting my water quality. I've heard those same folks, or others, suggesting I put in live rock scrabble instead. Why wouldn't live rock be just as much of a nitrate factory as bioballs? Aren't they both just giving harbor to bacteria? Many justifications I've seen for sumps has been about ease of upkeep, space for skimmers, etc, but I'm still trying to understand how they help with water quality, and why a cannister cannot be used for a similar purpose, even if it's not as good at it. It's cycling water, you can put what you want in it, what's the deal? Currently, I've removed all bioballs from cannister, and have two charcoal bags in one tray, and Seachem Purigen in another. Thoughts? Another piece of feedback that has always confused. People say, "don't use the cannister, have live rock do natural filtration for you". Well I have live rock, 30 lbs of it in the tank, but can't the cannister be used to add more help? My water has seemed cleaner since I added it on.

09/23/2015, 12:24 AM	#3
shifty51008 12-5 Chiefs record Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 10,134	I agree if you clean the canister filter regulary they can work well. Bio balls actually work just as good as live rock rubble as long as they are kept under water. If used like a wet dry filter where the bio balls arnt constantly under water they cant convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. __________________ 75 gal. mixed DT, 100 gal. sump, 50 gal. fuge, Clownfish breeder

09/23/2015, 08:13 AM	#4
ca1ore Grizzled & Cynical Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 17,319	Well, the pet theory is that because bioballs only grow bacteria on their surface, they just facilitate denitrification meaning nitrate as an 'end product'; whereas, live rock being porous encourages multiple kinds of bacteria including those that enable the reduction of nitrates into nitrogen gas, etc. Thus, said pet theory goes, using bioballs will leave you with higher nitrate levels than will rock. Whether there is any truth to this, I cannot honestly say; though on the off chance it is, I do not use bioballs. I would also suggest to the OP that the rock in your tank is almost certainly adequate for biological filtration. That the use of the canister is giving you observable 'cleaner' water is probably because it is playing a mechanical role. __________________ Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs

09/22/2015, 10:49 PM	#2
ebow3d Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 66	The only real issue with a canister is that you have to clean it very regularly. If you do that, it will certainly help to maintain good water quality.

09/23/2015, 08:44 AM	#5
leemosh Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 48	Honestly, since you have carbon and purigen in there, I think it's not really any different from running a reactor to help scrub your water, so I'd say keep running it. Some people like to put live rock rubble in their canister to increase the total amount of live rock in the system, but you have to keep the detritus out or else it will decompose in there and get converted to nitrates. But, it's no more nitrates that you'd have with a sump if you just let the detritus collect there. I'm not an expert with the denitrification process, but my understanding was that it only happens deeper inside rocks or a sand bed, like more than 2" from the surface, so if your rubble/rocks aren't at least 4" across, they don't really allow for the conversion of nitrates to nitrogen gas. With a smaller tank, most people just rely on water changes to reduce the nitrates and it works well.

09/23/2015, 09:29 AM	#6
stingeragent Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,032	I started a thread on this called 40b grow out with canister in the main reef discussion forum. Id link it but im on my phone. It can be done, even with filter floss,pads. Im not using it for bio filtration, mainly it acts like a filter sock, but yes clean it weekly.