YT died in QT

Adamant · 10/04/2015, 03:36 AM

Hi All,

Got myself a YT and a firefish a week ago and put them in my QT (so glad I did this now!).

They were treated with Prazi when they first went in and 3 days ago I started with Cupramine, bringing the dose up by 0.1 a day and we were at 0.3 yesterday.

Last night, the YT wasn't eating as aggressively as it had been but it had eaten that morning so I wasn't overly concerned.

This morning, the YT was dead on the bottom of the tank. I had a good look over it and there were no spots or anything I could see - just a red-ish patch on the underside where it had been laying.

I've no idea why the YT died, and the firefish is fine currently... any ideas?

Also, I'm tempted to get another YT as we're still at the beginning of QT period so I'm not "resetting the clock" too much but don't want to risk them dying if there's something "in the water" or now affecting the firefish.

What's everyone think?

heathlindner25 · 10/04/2015, 06:53 AM

Is this a un-cycled QT tank?

Dkuhlmann · 10/04/2015, 07:43 AM

Many people use un-cycled QT tanks very successfully I might add, what's your question, or your point? If he had an ammonia problem both fish would have died and IMO the firefish would have gone first.

Now what we need is for Adamant to give us his water parameters. then go from there.

heathlindner25 · 10/04/2015, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dkuhlmann

Many people use un-cycled QT tanks very successfully I might add, what's your question, or your point? If he had an ammonia problem both fish would have died and IMO the firefish would have gone first.

Now what we need is for Adamant to give us his water parameters. then go from there.

I was asking the question because, I wanted to know.
This is a place to learn things....not get harassed for asking a question

Dkuhlmann · 10/04/2015, 08:06 AM

I wasn't harassing you, simply making a point that is truth. I as well as many others I know don't keep QT up and running at all times. With an ammonia badge and Amquel or Prime along with wc's you can set one up rather quickly. The thing to ask was what are the parameters as a starting point to figure out if it was even the QT that was at fault. Could be the fish was just sick when he bought it and in that case the purpose of QT worked perfectly.

Duke4life · 10/04/2015, 08:10 AM

Sometimes they pass for no reason, I had a gramma that did in QT. It also doesn't surprise me that the firefish is doing okay as they are more durable than yellow tangs.

Fishmommy · 10/04/2015, 08:13 AM

I am alarmed to see mention of Prime by someone replying to a post mentioning Cupramine. Never mix the two. Not saying the OP did this, just making sure this is understood.

snorvich · 10/04/2015, 08:16 AM

As Fishmommy states above, Copper and Prime are mutually exclusive. The OP was using copper so Prime or equivalent is contra-indicated.

Dkuhlmann · 10/04/2015, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishmommy

I am alarmed to see mention of Prime by someone replying to a post mentioning Cupramine. Never mix the two. Not saying the OP did this, just making sure this is understood.

I missed where it said there was copper even in the tank? Besides I don't treat with copper IMO copper has no place in any saltwater tank. I was stating what I do

Fishmommy · 10/04/2015, 08:17 AM

Pay attention. The Op is treating with Cup.

heathlindner25 · 10/04/2015, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dkuhlmann

I wasn't harassing you, simply making a point that is truth. I as well as many others I know don't keep QT up and running at all times. With an ammonia badge and Amquel or Prime along with wc's you can set one up rather quickly. The thing to ask was what are the parameters as a starting point to figure out if it was even the QT that was at fault. Could be the fish was just sick when he bought it and in that case the purpose of QT worked perfectly.

I can ask any questions I want,and I like to form my own conclusions over the last decade in this hobby...but thank you for pointing me in the right direction for future questions

Fishmommy · 10/04/2015, 08:31 AM

To the OP....double check your copper level and add aeration if you aren't already. Copper is tough on fish and could have tipped an already weakened tang over the edge. Personally I would not add another fish to qt until your firefish is out.

How big is the qt tank?

snorvich · 10/04/2015, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dkuhlmann

I missed where it said there was copper even in the tank? Besides I don't treat with copper IMO copper has no place in any saltwater tank. I was stating what I do

Actually, I agree about not using copper. There are better solutions for ich (TTM) and velvet (CP).

Fishmommy · 10/04/2015, 08:46 AM

indeed, but it is underway so....

gone fishin · 10/04/2015, 08:52 AM

OP it is difficult to say for sure. The tang could have been a weak specimen to begin with, adverse reaction to cupramine or an existing illness.

Dkuhlmann · 10/04/2015, 08:58 AM

When I start fish in a QT I observe for a week or so and get the fish eating well and get to know me that I'm going to feed it. I observe for anything that might indicate that it has some kind of parasites or other illness. IMO many of the treatments we give to these fish can kill them easily if they're not healthy and since copper in a previous tank can cover up many things I have plenty of time to wait and get a healthy fish before treating anything.

gone fishin · 10/04/2015, 09:08 AM

This is especially true with copper treatments. It is a balancing act, copper is a poison just enough to get rid of parasites but not kill the fish.

heathlindner25 · 10/04/2015, 10:08 AM

I am NOT a big fan of using a uncycled tank ,when it is so easy to avoid the ammonia...
and those ammonia badges work about as good as API test kits..
If you place a mesh bag filled with matrix in your sump, when you are ready to set up your hospital tank you put it in there and you have an instantly cycled system.

heathlindner25 · 10/04/2015, 10:14 AM

and I wouldn't have used copper either... They were probably in copper at the fish store for god knows how long

ca1ore · 10/04/2015, 12:41 PM

If you decide to get another YT right away, I'd do a significant WC on the QT to get the meds out and then just observe the fish for a couple of weeks to ensure they are settled in and eating. At that point you can treat as you see fit.

Adamant · 10/04/2015, 01:09 PM

Thanks for all the responses,

I keep a big bit of sponge in the DT in order to take out to use as bio-filter in QT when I set it up.

Current levels are:

Ammonia - 0 (according to Ammonia Alert badge - no point testing with Cupramine in as would give invalid reading)
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 40
Salinity - 1.026
Copper - 0.3

The Nitrate has been rising steadily so I believe the bio filter must be working fine - it's higher than I'd have in a reef tank but I can't imagine Nitrate at 40ppm being an issue.

QT size is ~18 US Gallons.

I'll not get another YT for now and will see the firefish through treatment and then re setup the QT for another YT and see what happens.

Is Cupramine really that much more harmful to fish than the stress of TTM and then CP for MV?

Dkuhlmann · 10/04/2015, 01:46 PM

Copper isn't something you use just as a precaution, unless you see ich on the fish and it's been verified that it is in fact ich then copper works and has been for many years, but yes its very hard on the fish, TTM is much less so and if you use a bowl to get the fish out of the tank instead of a net then there is really no stress on them.

I don't treat fish for anything unless I'm sure they have what it is that I'm treating for.

Fishmommy · 10/04/2015, 01:54 PM

Your qt sounds great, and you are wise to use one. I believe there is a sticky for TTM somewhere around here should you decide to go that route in the future. Hope your firefish does well - mine is my favorite of the tank.

10/04/2015, 03:36 AM	#1
Adamant Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 70	YT died in QT Hi All, Got myself a YT and a firefish a week ago and put them in my QT (so glad I did this now!). They were treated with Prazi when they first went in and 3 days ago I started with Cupramine, bringing the dose up by 0.1 a day and we were at 0.3 yesterday. Last night, the YT wasn't eating as aggressively as it had been but it had eaten that morning so I wasn't overly concerned. This morning, the YT was dead on the bottom of the tank. I had a good look over it and there were no spots or anything I could see - just a red-ish patch on the underside where it had been laying. I've no idea why the YT died, and the firefish is fine currently... any ideas? Also, I'm tempted to get another YT as we're still at the beginning of QT period so I'm not "resetting the clock" too much but don't want to risk them dying if there's something "in the water" or now affecting the firefish. What's everyone think?

10/04/2015, 07:43 AM	#3
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	Many people use un-cycled QT tanks very successfully I might add, what's your question, or your point? If he had an ammonia problem both fish would have died and IMO the firefish would have gone first. Now what we need is for Adamant to give us his water parameters. then go from there. __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

10/04/2015, 08:06 AM	#5
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	I wasn't harassing you, simply making a point that is truth. I as well as many others I know don't keep QT up and running at all times. With an ammonia badge and Amquel or Prime along with wc's you can set one up rather quickly. The thing to ask was what are the parameters as a starting point to figure out if it was even the QT that was at fault. Could be the fish was just sick when he bought it and in that case the purpose of QT worked perfectly. __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

10/04/2015, 08:10 AM	#6
Duke4life Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 559	Sometimes they pass for no reason, I had a gramma that did in QT. It also doesn't surprise me that the firefish is doing okay as they are more durable than yellow tangs. __________________ Phillip Current Tank Info: 125 gal DT, 20 gal sump, currently home to a chainlink eel, 2 skunk cleaner shrimp, a purple firefish, red firefish, carpenters flasher wrasse, pink margin fairy wrasse, blue sided fairy wrasse, C Pylei wrasse, snails and hermits.

10/04/2015, 08:13 AM	#7
Fishmommy Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: NH, USA Posts: 1,214	I am alarmed to see mention of Prime by someone replying to a post mentioning Cupramine. Never mix the two. Not saying the OP did this, just making sure this is understood. __________________ 135 DSA reef w/50 MRC sump. 10 + 5 QT, 180 planted, 75 planted

10/04/2015, 06:53 AM	#2
heathlindner25 Moved On Join Date: May 2012 Location: flowery branch georgia Posts: 3,644	Is this a un-cycled QT tank?

10/04/2015, 08:16 AM	#8
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	As Fishmommy states above, Copper and Prime are mutually exclusive. The OP was using copper so Prime or equivalent is contra-indicated. __________________ Warmest regards, ~Steve~

10/04/2015, 08:17 AM	#10
Fishmommy Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: NH, USA Posts: 1,214	Pay attention. The Op is treating with Cup. __________________ 135 DSA reef w/50 MRC sump. 10 + 5 QT, 180 planted, 75 planted

10/04/2015, 08:31 AM	#12
Fishmommy Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: NH, USA Posts: 1,214	To the OP....double check your copper level and add aeration if you aren't already. Copper is tough on fish and could have tipped an already weakened tang over the edge. Personally I would not add another fish to qt until your firefish is out. How big is the qt tank? __________________ 135 DSA reef w/50 MRC sump. 10 + 5 QT, 180 planted, 75 planted

10/04/2015, 08:46 AM	#14
Fishmommy Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: NH, USA Posts: 1,214	indeed, but it is underway so.... __________________ 135 DSA reef w/50 MRC sump. 10 + 5 QT, 180 planted, 75 planted

10/04/2015, 08:52 AM	#15
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	OP it is difficult to say for sure. The tang could have been a weak specimen to begin with, adverse reaction to cupramine or an existing illness. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

10/04/2015, 08:58 AM	#16
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	When I start fish in a QT I observe for a week or so and get the fish eating well and get to know me that I'm going to feed it. I observe for anything that might indicate that it has some kind of parasites or other illness. IMO many of the treatments we give to these fish can kill them easily if they're not healthy and since copper in a previous tank can cover up many things I have plenty of time to wait and get a healthy fish before treating anything. __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

10/04/2015, 09:08 AM	#17
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	This is especially true with copper treatments. It is a balancing act, copper is a poison just enough to get rid of parasites but not kill the fish. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

10/04/2015, 10:08 AM	#18
heathlindner25 Moved On Join Date: May 2012 Location: flowery branch georgia Posts: 3,644	I am NOT a big fan of using a uncycled tank ,when it is so easy to avoid the ammonia... and those ammonia badges work about as good as API test kits.. If you place a mesh bag filled with matrix in your sump, when you are ready to set up your hospital tank you put it in there and you have an instantly cycled system.

10/04/2015, 10:14 AM	#19
heathlindner25 Moved On Join Date: May 2012 Location: flowery branch georgia Posts: 3,644	and I wouldn't have used copper either... They were probably in copper at the fish store for god knows how long

10/04/2015, 12:41 PM	#20
ca1ore Grizzled & Cynical Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 17,319	If you decide to get another YT right away, I'd do a significant WC on the QT to get the meds out and then just observe the fish for a couple of weeks to ensure they are settled in and eating. At that point you can treat as you see fit. __________________ Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs

10/04/2015, 01:09 PM	#21
Adamant Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 70	Thanks for all the responses, I keep a big bit of sponge in the DT in order to take out to use as bio-filter in QT when I set it up. Current levels are: Ammonia - 0 (according to Ammonia Alert badge - no point testing with Cupramine in as would give invalid reading) Nitrite - 0 Nitrate - 40 Salinity - 1.026 Copper - 0.3 The Nitrate has been rising steadily so I believe the bio filter must be working fine - it's higher than I'd have in a reef tank but I can't imagine Nitrate at 40ppm being an issue. QT size is ~18 US Gallons. I'll not get another YT for now and will see the firefish through treatment and then re setup the QT for another YT and see what happens. Is Cupramine really that much more harmful to fish than the stress of TTM and then CP for MV?

10/04/2015, 01:46 PM	#22
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	Copper isn't something you use just as a precaution, unless you see ich on the fish and it's been verified that it is in fact ich then copper works and has been for many years, but yes its very hard on the fish, TTM is much less so and if you use a bowl to get the fish out of the tank instead of a net then there is really no stress on them. I don't treat fish for anything unless I'm sure they have what it is that I'm treating for. __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

10/04/2015, 01:54 PM	#23
Fishmommy Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: NH, USA Posts: 1,214	Your qt sounds great, and you are wise to use one. I believe there is a sticky for TTM somewhere around here should you decide to go that route in the future. Hope your firefish does well - mine is my favorite of the tank. __________________ 135 DSA reef w/50 MRC sump. 10 + 5 QT, 180 planted, 75 planted