Need help! Little experience in professional setting.

[NNYandSquee]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this or not, but here goes. Sorry for the length.

So about 2 months ago I started working for my local LFS who deals in freshwater and saltwater. It's a very small store with only one employee, me. I don't have any previous experience with saltwater tanks. I'm trying to learn as quickly as I can, and am often doing research at home.

Here's my issue. In the short time that I've been here, things really do not seem right. His saltwater fish are constantly dying. He orders new fish each week, and just lets the others die. We lose 1-3 fish a day versus actually selling 1-3 fish a week, but he just keeps on ordering more without trying to fix the problem. The shop currently has 4 salt-systems of varying volume, and a small bio cube tank ( which seems to be the only one that's doing okay ). I've learned how to do basic water testing ( high range PH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, salinity ) which I do right before he orders new stock, and then the morning after the fish are put into the tanks. All tests have come up relatively normal, with minor differences in PH and salinity between systems, but nothing worrisome. He acclimates the fish for at least an hour if not more. He has one large tank where he keeps a few more aggressive fish together, but the rest of the systems are large acrylic pieces with separated partitions for individual fish.

I realize this post lacks specificity as to what I'm actually looking for help with. I just feel that with his lack of wanting to find the problem, and just adding more and more fish only to have them die is bordering on animal abuse. Am I completely off? Or is this just the nature of an aquarium store?

[e048]

What are the parameters, is he drippimg the new fish?

This is all pretty vague but I'll help best I can

[NNYandSquee]

I have the results written down in a notebook at the shop, so I can't really remember off the top of my head. The results of PH on all 4 systems was around 8.0, and the ammonia and nitrites we have all come up zero. Nitrates on all the systems seem to hover around 5-10, the once I got a result of 20. All salinity tests have been in the safe range, though probly on the higher end of the range. He does drip the new fish. He puts them in a 5 gallon buckets ( he'll put 1-5 fish in each bucket, depending on size ) and drips for at least an hour. When I first started working there he said to set a timer for 45 minutes, but from what I've observed he'll let them sit for at least an hour.

[Reefermatt3]

How often do water changes occur? The Nitrates are pretty high so doing a water change would help.

[NNYandSquee]

They haven't been done for 2 weeks this time around, but Usually once a week. As far as I know, he uses saltwater for the water changes, and RO for daily top-offs. He had another employee who mostly dealt with the SW end of things, while I concentrated on the freshwater stuff. But now she's gone, and the owner doesn't seem to be taking any initiative. This is why I'm trying to learn as much as I can to try to get a handle on things.

[Shawn O]

Nitrates are fine for a fish-only tank. Seems like he's dripping them too long. Have him try dripping them for only a half hour and see how that works.

[Clownfish Chris]

I am curious about disease in the tanks. What to the fish look like before and after they die. Are there any sores or spots on the fish? Do they have a fuzzy film? Are only certain species affected or is it all of them? If you can, post a picture.

[Breadman03]

Originally Posted by Shawn O

Nitrates are fine for a fish-only tank. Seems like he's dripping them too long. Have him try dripping them for only a half hour and see how that works.

That's certainly a possibility. When fish are shipped in a sealed bag, the pH changes and keeps the ammonia in a "safe" form. When exposed to air, it converts back into a harmful form. Taking too long to acclimate can allow the ammonia to damage the fish.

Originally Posted by NNYandSquee

All salinity tests have been in the safe range, though probly on the higher end of the range.

This may be another part of the issue. It takes a long time to safely raise the salinity level a fish is in, but they can quickly adjust to lower salinity. You should record the salinity of both the transport water and the store system levels and report them here. What do you measure salinity with? A properly calibrated refractometer is ideal for accuracy, but the important thing here is the difference between the two which won't be affected much by a non-calibrated instrument.

[NNYandSquee]

I go in tomorrow, and can a pic of the setup. The tester we have for salinity is just a basic plastic "Instant Ocean" hydrometer.

No body looks diseased when they come in, I usually notice the dead fish in the morning when I come in, so I"m not sure of the changes that are taking place once the lights are off. I do notice more small damsels ( usually blue/domino/velvet ). But more recently I've had a dog face puffer, emperor snapper, orange shoulder tang, and a panther grouper. All those were just in the first system.

[nmotz]

I think it's the 1hr drip acclimation that is doing it. Needs to be 20-30 mins for new arrivals. A refractometer is a much better tool for salinity, and it might be helpful to adjust the salinity in the store's tanks down a little (maybe 1.022-1.024). Many fish stores actually run salinity around 1.021 even.

[NNYandSquee]

Thanks everyone for the recommendations Out of curiosity, if it's the extended drip that may be harming them, how long would it normal take to die? Some of the new ones that come in will last a few days before seemingly just giving up, although the damsel we tend to get in will usually die off by the next morning. Also, occasionally we get in seahorses and he'll do a very slow drip sometimes for hours and they seem to do really well. Is that normal?

[nmotz]

Sometimes ammonia poisoning can damage internal organs such that the creature expires up to a few days after such an event. I won't comment on the seahorses because I just don't have any experience with that animal.

[ucdcrew]

Do you get the fish from the same supplier? I'd think about testing the water in the bags, and if it is not ridiculously out of whack try to mimic that salinity. That way all you'd have to do was temp acclimate, which you can do with the bag closed. I've read that the acclimation ammonia spike comes from when the fish waste reacts with air, so the longer you keep the bag closed, the better. I'd check the bags, and post the salinity here to see what other folks think about that idea.

[Sk8r]

A few days to die accords very well with kidney damage from ammonia poisoning.

Tell him do this: 30 minute max on drip. Amquel if it has to be longer. And if he has a large compatible shipment---the best of all worlds is to preset some tanks to the SHIPPER's salinity, and put all the fish of that sort into that tank with NO acclimation at all except a 15 minute float for temperature. Sell from that tank AT that salinity, but advise customers that the salinity is not 1.024. Sending them home with a little paper on acclimation and quarantine would be a good idea. That lets you sell them quarantine rigs.

Here's what happens; fish poo and breathe and produce ammonium---and co2 in the bag. Bag closed, no problem. Bag open---co2 floats out, ph change converts ammonium to ammonia, beginning immediately and reaching toxic levels in 30 minutes. Does that explain the instructions above? Acclimation is ALL about salinity and temperature, unless you're dealing with real exotic weirdness. Get the temperature close, get the fish into water of the same salinity, and you're golden---especially if you can do it without any waiting. He needs to have (and sell) a refractometer for rapid accurate testing.

[NNYandSquee]

I was unable to get a pic of the systems, unfortunately. However, when I came in yesterday we had another 7 or 8 fish dead from different systems, and not all of them we're from the last shipment that we got last Thursday. Also, a Volitan lionfish that we took in from a customer last week ( who had been perfectly healthy and eating, just wasn't getting along with the customer's tank mates ) now his eyes completely clouded over. Could this be from stress of being moved, or being kept in a small partitioned space, or is it indicative of a larger problem I can't figure out? PH in system 1 ( where the lion fish is, and the majority of the deaths seem to occur ) is a little high 8.3-4, but everything else is within acceptable range.

Any ideas?

[joshbrookkate]

I am too new at this hobby to help you out but I commend you for reaching out to try to learn and improve the conditions for the fish at your store! We need more lfs workers like you!

[gone fishin]

I honestly would suspect some sort of ongoing disease or parasite in the tank.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2389659

The link has a diagnosis section in it. I would look particularly at velvet or brooklynella and see if it fits. Good luck

[NNYandSquee]

Thanks again everyone for your advice and commendations I appreciate it so much. I go back in tomorrow so we'll see how the lionfish is doing, and if we lost any more. In the meantime, I'll look at the diagnosis thread and see if I can't narrow some things down.

[Sk8r]

PH is virtually useless in marine tanks---you should be tracking your alkalinity and salinity, and nitrate. Alkalinity should be 7.9-8.3, salinity whatever the shipper uses, but corals and inverts take 1.024 to 1.026. Your nitrate should be less than 50 for fish and less than 2 for corals. By what you describe, I'm betting the alkalinity is wonky and the nitrate is through the roof. And if the shop doesn't have a refractometer or two, I strongly urge you have one shipped to you fast. You should NEVER bump a fish from one salinity to another by accident, so you should know exactly what salinity your tanks are, and a hydrometer, even if expertly read, gets worse over time, unless cleaned in white vinegar periodically: it builds up deposits.

[NNYandSquee]

What is the difference between a hydrometer and a refractometer? Any suggestions as to what I can do if I can't get a refractometer? Business is incredibly slow, and at this point we're losing more fish than we sell, so I'm not sure he'd be able to even purchase one. We get shipments from several different places, so I don't think we'd be able to match the salinity.

[heathlindner25]

Originally Posted by NNYandSquee

I was unable to get a pic of the systems, unfortunately. However, when I came in yesterday we had another 7 or 8 fish dead from different systems, and not all of them we're from the last shipment that we got last Thursday. Also, a Volitan lionfish that we took in from a customer last week ( who had been perfectly healthy and eating, just wasn't getting along with the customer's tank mates ) now his eyes completely clouded over. Could this be from stress of being moved, or being kept in a small partitioned space, or is it indicative of a larger problem I can't figure out? PH in system 1 ( where the lion fish is, and the majority of the deaths seem to occur ) is a little high 8.3-4, but everything else is within acceptable range.

Any ideas?

When you say " cloudy eyes" I naturally assume flukes.
if it is, and you give them a proper freshwater dip, preferably in a colored Tupperware container, you will see them pouring out of their skin.

[Sk8r]

A refractometer is an instrument that collects water on a plate, along with light---stand under one---and gives you an instant and precise numerical salinity result, with an eyepiece you can focus. They're about 25.00 to 70.00. http://www.amazon.com/Salinity-Refra...=refractometer And I've noticed no difference in quality.

[Molly1414]

What about temperature in the tanks? Since a lot of the fish seem to die over night is there anything in the system plugged into outlets that may be getting turned off when the store is closed. Some outlets may be connected with wall switches and light switches. Could heaters or pumps be inadvertently getting turned off?

[Mark9]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

PH is virtually useless in marine tanks

I disagree, I monitor it with my controller and will alert me if there is a dosing issue, which automatically shuts down the dosers. Totally not useless.

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Alkalinity should be 7.9-8.3,

I disagree, I shoot for 8.4, which is a good mid rage. Even up to 9 is no issue.

Originally Posted by Sk8r

and the nitrate is through the roof.

Wrong, the OP said it was 5-10, totally acceptable. Not sure if you read all the OP posted.

[e048]

I think y'all should tear down all the tanks and start over if it's giving you so much trouble