Ideas about clownfish death?

[potxoli]

Hi Everyone,

I have been reefing on and off since for 15 years so not a complete newb. I decided recently to set up a tank. I cycled it and after cycle was complete I added a clown fish 9 days ago. Since it was the only fish, I opted not to quarantine him, but rather added him to the display tank. Clown has been doing great and eating no problem. He had NO visible problems on his body.

Today, I found him struggling, swimming erratically, lying in the sand etc. I immediately filled a hospital tank with saltwater, but it was cold, so I had to wait for it to come up to temp. Meanwhile I tested my tank and it tests fine. Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Ph 8.0, Salinity 1.026, Temp 77.5.

Once the hospital tank was warm enough I transfered the clown, but he died after a 30 minutes.

So from a timeline perspective:

This morning at 9am the clown was great, swimming around, looking normal.

at 4pm I detected erratic behavior
by 8:15pm he was dead.

The only thing I did today is add a mame skimmer to the tank at 9:30am.
Yesterday I added a small frag of GSP that I got at the fish store. GSP still is not opening today, but that seems normal.

Any ideas? I'm worried my tank is now somehow bad or something. How would I find out if it is OK? Maybe add another clown and have have hospital tank up and running and take the fish out sooner if it is acting erratic?

Thanks!

[dowjones1221]

you didn't list your nitrate level did you test that? clownfish can usually tolerate fairly high nitrate levels but yours might have been off the charts? Also have you retested since then to see if you had a false reading on the other tests?

[reefbroao]

You'd have to have a serious problem if nitrates are high enough to kill him. I've had fish just not work out like one clown I had just sort of went downhill. Possibly stress since he's relatively new? You never really know what the fish dealt with before coming to you.

Did it look bloated? Any sign of internal parasites?

[dracus]

Did you notice any spots or discoloration on him under lights, especially actinic? I'm sure you're familiar with ich, but it could be velvet. I had 2 clowns die of velvet within 12 hours of me noticing symptoms.

[potxoli]

Hi everyone. I had tested Nitrate too the day before he died and it was zero. I've tested again several times since he died and Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate are all zero. Ph is still 8.0. My GSP frag finally opened up now that I found a place for it with less flow. So while it still could be issues with my water, I'm not sure what they could be or how to test them.

Unfortunately I did not think to really look at the dead fish after he died. All I could think of was that I wanted to dispose of the body before my kids saw it As I mentioned while he was sick in the tank I could not see any spots, discolorations etc. but I am not 100% certain. He did seem awfully skinny. I had been feeding him a tiny bit of flake food every day but skipped a few days. I was pretty concerned about not causing a spike that I fed very sparsely. On the day before he died, I fed those small .5mm pellets that I found at an LFS that I think might be more for freshwater than saltwater although they have a falco hawkfish on the cover. He kept spitting those out. Not sure if feeding had anything to do with this.

Thanks for all the help.

[Dkuhlmann]

I seriously doubt your nitrate is 0. What test kit are you using and what is your test procedure?

What all foods do you have? Flakes IME should not be a primary food. Pellets and mysis or one of the frozen blends are much better, and how often do you feed

[potxoli]

I use the API master saltwater test kit. I pull out 5ml with a siringe, put it in the test tube, add 10 drops of nitrate test part 1, shake, add 10 drops of nitrate test part 2 and observe color against the chart. If it is not 0, it is certainly less than 5ppm with this kit. See below.

Essentially the only food the clown ate while i had him was tetra marine saltwater flakes. Approximately one flake every other day is what happened. He was very small and I did not want to overfeed.

I hate pellets since although they are supposed to sink slowly, they seem to either float and end up in the HOB filter or sink fast to the bottom where the clown won't get to them.

The pellets I did try to feed him were New Life Spectrum Thera+

How does one feed one of the frozen cubes which are enormous to a single tiny fish?

[Dkuhlmann]

I suggest that you read the instructions you are also supposed to shake with the second set of drops for one full minute. If you don't it won't read anything. Go try it again and do the shake for one full minute on the second drops and wait 5 minutes then read it.

Either thaw the cubes in water and feed a little bit then save in the refrigerator, or cut some off the frozen cube.

[Flagg37]

I'm not sure if you're just abbreviating your process of how you do the nitrate test or if you're not doing it but according to the instructions you need to be shaking the test solution #2 for 30 seconds before adding it to the test tube and then after adding it you shake the test tube for a full minute. It's also important to check it at the 5 minute mark because the color does change and reading it before or after can give an inaccurate reading.

[potxoli]

Thank you! I will go do this properly tonight and report back.

[jml1149]

How did you cycle your tank and how are you measuring pH? I've had horrendous results with the API test kits for everything but Ammonia and Nitrite.

[e048]

How did you acclimate him

[potxoli]

OK, I had a chance to rerun the nitrate test according to the appropriate methodology and it seems to me that nitrates are at 5ppm or maybe a bit more, but 10ppm would be tops. I don't believe this would be enough to kill a clown.

I cycled the tank using raw ammonia from Dr. Tims aquatics. I followed the instructions of the product: Spiked tank to 3ppm, waited for ammonia spike and nitrite spike to subside, spiked again, waited for spike to subside and did it again a third time, but on the third time, the Ammonia and Nitrite measured zero after 24 hours. This all took close to 4 weeks. After this was over was when I added the clown. I am now 6 weeks up and running with the tank.

The fish came from an LFS 45 minutes away from my house, so since transit time was so short, I felt I could get away with the cup method of acclimation since I did not think there would be much ammonia in the bag. So after 15 minutes equalizing temperature, I spent the next 50 minutes putting 1/2 cup of tank saltwater into the bag until the salinity was roughly equal to the one in my tank. once that happened I grabbed the little guy with my hand and put him in the tank.

Today the GSP finally opened in it's new spot as you can (barely) see below and my shrooms also are looking pretty good, so I'm feeling a bit more confident my tank is doing well.

[e048]

My advice don't grab fish with bare hands, second did you test the salinity of the store water vs what your tank is at most lfs keep salinity low too much of a change too fast can kill

I usually drip anything for at least 45-60mins the cup method is kind of a shortcut way that doesn't always work (moves the salinity up too fast)

[Pet Detective]

Nitrates do NOT kill fish, sorry to burst everyone's uninformed bubble here. Nitrites are harmful, nitrates are useful, you are barking up the wrong tree, I would ask how long you cycled your tank?

[potxoli]

Originally Posted by e048

My advice don't grab fish with bare hands, second did you test the salinity of the store water vs what your tank is at most lfs keep salinity low too much of a change too fast can kill

I usually drip anything for at least 45-60mins the cup method is kind of a shortcut way that doesn't always work (moves the salinity up too fast)

Yes I did test it and it was low at the store. He went from 1.021 to 1.026 during those 50 minutes with the cup method.

Would bad acclimation account for a death a whole week later?

[newbie2014]

Originally Posted by Pet Detective

Nitrates do NOT kill fish, sorry to burst everyone's uninformed bubble here. Nitrites are harmful, nitrates are useful, you are barking up the wrong tree, I would ask how long you cycled your tank?

Does the cycle duration matter that much?

He did say that he added the fish after the parameters were at zero. And, according to him, they were still zero when the fish was kicking the bucket.

[Pet Detective]

Originally Posted by newbie2014

Does the cycle duration matter that much?

He did say that he added the fish after the parameters were at zero. And, according to him, they were still zero when the fish was kicking the bucket.

The "Nitrogen Cycle" IS the most important process when it comes to keeping saltwater tanks .......PERIOD, the duration is important to know, a minimum of 4-6 weeks is required to properly build a denitrifying bacteria colony, any perceived shortcuts to this can & will lead to undue stress & or death to the fish, this is why I asked the question...the proper introduction of ammonia & the subsequent time frame discussed are critical, & test kits are not always accurate, but nature is predictable & infallible.

[newbie2014]

Originally Posted by Pet Detective

The "Nitrogen Cycle" IS the most important process when it comes to keeping saltwater tanks .......PERIOD, the duration is important to know, a minimum of 4-6 weeks is required to properly build a denitrifying bacteria colony, any perceived shortcuts to this can & will lead to undue stress & or death to the fish, this is why I asked the question...the proper introduction of ammonia & the subsequent time frame discussed are critical, & test kits are not always accurate, but nature is predictable & infallible.

So, basically, just let the cycle run for 4-6 weeks, then fish can be added even if the test results say otherwise because they could be inaccurate? And nature is predictable and infallible?

I always thought one should test the water to track the progress. But if we can't rely on the test results.............

[Pet Detective]

Originally Posted by newbie2014

So, basically, just let the cycle run for 4-6 weeks, then fish can be added even if the test results say otherwise because they could be inaccurate? And nature is predictable and infallible?

I always thought one should test the water to track the progress. But if we can't rely on the test results.............

yeah....do that, do exactly that & good luck to you, since you know everything already & are not willing to "hear" what I am saying.

[e048]

It may have just been a bad clown I had that happen before just wait a couple weeks and try again but qt this time

[shifty51008]

Originally Posted by Pet Detective

Nitrates do NOT kill fish, sorry to burst everyone's uninformed bubble here. Nitrites are harmful, nitrates are useful, you are barking up the wrong tree, I would ask how long you cycled your tank?

Sorry to burst your bubble also but nitrites are also harmless in sw unless at very high levels that we never get close to in our tanks.

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by Pet Detective

yeah....do that, do exactly that & good luck to you, since you know everything already & are not willing to "hear" what I am saying.

Coming across a little strong there man. Plenty of people have different experiences, no one's tank is the same. Stating everything as you do as the absolute truth is really not the greatest of approaches.

Also some fish do just die. Could be damage due to collection methods, could be just too much stress overwhelming the system. If you think about it, they are living somewhere in the ocean or breeders tank, then suddenly grabbed, stuck in a bag, in the dark, moved somewhere else. Its a lot for a small animal. Many deaths can never really be diagnosed.

[A1t2o]

He stated that he cycled for 4 weeks and parameters were at 0 for ammonia and nitrite. What are you arguing about?

I would say that the clown just died on its own and that it is OP's fault. Could be stress, disease, parasite, or just about anything. Keep feeding with the pellets, those are good. With small fish, it can be fun and worth while to hatch baby brine shrimp to feed your fish. My fish go nuts when I add them and it is fun to watch.

If you want to try again with a clown, go ahead since there is nothing that you did that was obviously wrong. Try to feed every day though, just a little bit is enough and they will find it on the bottom. You may want to get a chromis if you are worried about the cost of the clown, since it could die again, not likely but possible. Also, I would get some hermits if I were you. They will eat the leftover food so you don't have to worry as much.

[potxoli]

Originally Posted by A1t2o

If you want to try again with a clown, go ahead since there is nothing that you did that was obviously wrong. Try to feed every day though, just a little bit is enough and they will find it on the bottom. You may want to get a chromis if you are worried about the cost of the clown, since it could die again, not likely but possible. Also, I would get some hermits if I were you. They will eat the leftover food so you don't have to worry as much.

Thank you! I will try again. Cost is not an issue for me, but rather the trauma of knowing that what I did or did not do caused them to die. Watching that clown swim around as he were drunk, then swimming upside down, then lying on the sand dying is not good.

Thanks to the informative posts on this thread, when I try again I will make the following changes:

1. Change LFS in case the one I used has bad clowns or tanks or something.
2. Better acclimation. I will prepare a QT tank at the same salinity as wherever I get the fish from and then slowly raise the salinity of the QT tank to my tank.
3. QT the fish.
4. Feed the feed daily and a more varied diet than flakes.

I might go Chromis or Yellow-tail damsel before I try the clown again.