Looking for some advice on my LFS

[Cobrasvt1999]

Heya all!

I have now had my tank setup for about a month and its looking like i'm ready to get some first fish on there, and maybe corals as well!

That said, i'm a huge fan of supporting local businesses, so I would love to buy from my LFS who has been extremely helpful and even offered to come to my home for free to help if I have trouble.

Unfortunately, he has told me that he KNOWS that many of his fish have ich (they just got done moving their entire stock to a new building). I did already plan on setting up a quarantine tank, even for the first fish. My question then is, should I buy fish from this store? if so, what kind of treatment should I plan for the fish while they are in quarantine?

P.S. I have seen the fish, they all look reasonably healthy and are all eating well.

P.P.S. Any recommendations on first critters?

[Marchillo]

For QT I would do TTM - tank transfer method which requires 2 additional tanks and a small amount of other cheap equipment. There is a sticky on TTM

I'm not sure Id want to start off buying fish I know have ich. TTM should eliminate the ich so I guess it depends on you. Total QT time should be around 6-8 weeks. Some do more or less.

Get a fish that you want long term and the least aggressive of your entire stock plan. Give us more info on the tank. What size is it? What type of fish do you like?

[billdogg]

Some info on your tank would help narrow down the choices.

Regardless of what your (or any) LFS claims, the only safe bet is to assume that the fish have disease of one sort or another and to act accordingly. There is a good thread here about the Tank Transfer Method (TTM), probably the safest and a fairly easy method of getting rid of unwanted problems.

[Cobrasvt1999]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

For QT I would do TTM - tank transfer method which requires 2 additional tanks and a small amount of other cheap equipment. There is a sticky on TTM

I'm not sure Id want to start off buying fish I know have ich. TTM should eliminate the ich so I guess it depends on you. Total QT time should be around 6-8 weeks. Some do more or less.

Get a fish that you want long term and the least aggressive of your entire stock plan. Give us more info on the tank. What size is it? What type of fish do you like?

Sorry. Should have mentioned that!

Its a 56 Gal column tank from Marine land with 55lbs live rock and 25lbs sand.

I have 55 gal total water volume with the sump included.

So far as what im looking for, My goal for this tank is to make it a real showpiece. so flashy and unique fish and corals are what I would like long term. Maybe down the road there are a few other specific creature tanks I have interest in, but for now, im going for the showpiece.

Also, I will look up the TTM method. Thanks

[Cobrasvt1999]

Originally Posted by billdogg

Some info on your tank would help narrow down the choices.

Regardless of what your (or any) LFS claims, the only safe bet is to assume that the fish have disease of one sort or another and to act accordingly. There is a good thread here about the Tank Transfer Method (TTM), probably the safest and a fairly easy method of getting rid of unwanted problems.

So I notice that the TTM dosent use and copper? and after the 12 days its just a quarantine to be sure you got it? Is that correct? Also, What kind of stresses does this put on fish? it seems rather stressful

Also, where is the filtration in this system? I doubt there is much in the way of Bacteria growing on these tanks after each cleaning? is it just enough to let the ammonia build up between each 72 hr tank change?

[gone fishin]

If done correctly TTM is less stressful than using copper. On a side note if the LFS told me up front their fish had ich, I would thank them for being honest and buy the fish.

Since the fish are only there for 72 hours max the bacteria is not really a concern, unless you plan on putting a huge amount of fish in the transfer.

[Cobrasvt1999]

Originally Posted by gone fishin

If done correctly TTM is less stressful than using copper. On a side note if the LFS told me up front their fish had ich, I would thank them for being honest and buy the fish.

Since the fish are only there for 72 hours max the bacteria is not really a concern, unless you plan on putting a huge amount of fish in the transfer.

Not a huge number, But I was considering 2-4 smaller fish to start with. I dont want to put too much of a load on the bacteria till they have a change to catch up with the new bio load.

Also, I see that the Ich cysts can last up to 72 days.... while this isnt as much a concern for fish. I would imagine that crabs, snails, corrals, and other things make great surfaces for this thing to form a cyst on. Should I quarantine these as well to allow the cyst time to burst and die? 5-8 days seem to be the norm time for the cyst, but with a potential of 72 days... thats rather daunting..

[gone fishin]

Some folks will QT anything wet. It really is all about a calculated risk and how much your willing to take on. IMO ich is one of the least benign of the problems that can come in on fish, for example brook, velvet and uronema.

all those things you mentioned can bring in ich. if you can get your CUC from a tank with no fish in it and on a separate system then IMO the risk is minimal. I get from CUC and replacements from Reefcleaners, for me the risk is minimal.

corals should at the least get a coral dip. I am more concerned with bringing coral eating pests than ich.

forgot to mention the most I have QT at once is two fish and I did not have an issue with ammonia. But,I always have some prime on hand to deal with ammonia if it shows up.

[MondoBongo]

it will be a challenge for sure, to start off with fish known to have ich, but it's a manageable one.

generally speaking as Tony said the bacteria isn't really a huge issue due to the quickness with which you are changing them tank to tank. you can help the process by using an ammonia locker like SeaChem Prime, or AmQuel to help detoxify the ammonia. you can also do water changes to help dilute it in between tank transfers.

TTM is an excellent method. it does require a decent bit of effort, and a lot of water, but it is effective and if done correctly not overly stressful on the animals.

i'm using TTM for the second time right now on a pair of orange spotted filefish, and previously for a copperbanded butterfly. the copperband did very well throughout the process just being transferred, with no additional water changes or ammonia blocker.

the orange spotted filefish are quite a bit more sensitive than the copperband. they're doing very well so far, getting ready for their second transfer tomorrow morning, but since they are so considerably more sensitive, i am using AmQuel and large daily water changes (around 50%) to help keep the water quality as high as possible. they require a lot of small feedings though, so the water tends to foul quickly.

if you were using the method on more hardy fish, like say clownfish, it is a bit easier since they tend to be more tolerant of parameter swings.

things ti watch out for during TTM (and i've learned these the hard way):

salinity. test a couple of times a day since you will need to be manually topping off with fresh water to counteract evaporation.

temperature. make sure your heaters are calibrated correctly ahead of time for the temperature you want, and double check them when you check the salinity.

sharing. it's easy to forget your hands are wet, or your dropper for testing salinity was in the TTM tank, or what have you. be mindful that transferring anything wet is a potential disease transmission vector. so just make sure that if you're doing maintenance on other tanks that you're washing hands, using different equipment, etc...

have as much extra water on hand as possible. the more you have the easier life is, bonus if it's heated, aerated, and ready to go. although i'm aware this may not be practical for many people, depending on how your set up is.

as for other organisms, the choice is yours, and again it depends on your particular setup, and your risk tolerance.

it is entirely possible that an ich cyst could end up on an incoming invertebrate, or piece of macro algae, what have you. so quarantining them is a good idea. TTM even works very well for them. that said, there is probably less of a chance of them being a vector if they are in a dedicated invert system, not in contact with fish. your mileage may vary.

personally i have a second tank set up that acts as a long term observation/grow out system. i usually try to get my inverts in batches and place them in that tank for a while to help mitigate the risk. again, i know this isn't always practical for everyone given space and other constraints.

many people don't qt inverts.

so, different strategies for different people, and i'm sure there are even more techniques. so pick the one that will work the best for you, balancing any constraints you may have in your set up versus the level of risk you're comfortable with.

at any rate, best of luck to you! always good to see people seriously weighing a solid quarantine protocol.

[Cobrasvt1999]

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

temperature. make sure your heaters are calibrated correctly ahead of time for the temperature you want, and double check them when you check the salinity.

Thanks for the heads up! However, I know that many heaters (usually the lower end ones you would use in a QT tank like this) can have a number of degrees difference between themselves while being set at the same temperature. Is this difference something to worry about? I would imagine it cant be more than 5 degrees at the most. but I hear it can happen

[Jscwerve]

It sounds like trouble to buy fish that you know are very likely diseased.

Is there a rush? Can you wait for the LFS to cure their problem before stocking from their inventory?

It just sounds to me like it's not worth the trouble to by fish that are more than suspect.

I know that all livestock are suspect and should be treated as such, but it seems to me this case is just asking for trouble.

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by Cobrasvt1999

Thanks for the heads up! However, I know that many heaters (usually the lower end ones you would use in a QT tank like this) can have a number of degrees difference between themselves while being set at the same temperature. Is this difference something to worry about? I would imagine it cant be more than 5 degrees at the most. but I hear it can happen

Well what I mean is adjust them so they match each other. That way, when you get ready to transfer, you know there is a much better chance of the water temps matching. Sometimes what is labeled as 77 on one heater might actually be off a couple degrees in either direction.

I use a little digital therm I got off amazon for about $10. Then I adjust the heater setting based off what my therm says, not what the heater is labeled for.

[CStrickland]

Another option that might suit you:
If you get to know the store a little bit you can tell them what fish you're looking for. When they have one coming in on an order you can have them give you a heads up and plan to hold it at the store, in its packaging. You can swing buy and pick it up without ever having it in their ichy tanks. Some people do this regularly to have less stress on the fish from being caught more times than necessary.

I'd still qt it though, they can catch lots of stuff at the wholesaler etc. I agree with the others, best to assume all fish come with diseases. It's to his credit that he's honest about it.

[Cobrasvt1999]

Originally Posted by Jscwerve

It sounds like trouble to buy fish that you know are very likely diseased.

Is there a rush? Can you wait for the LFS to cure their problem before stocking from their inventory?

It just sounds to me like it's not worth the trouble to by fish that are more than suspect.

I know that all livestock are suspect and should be treated as such, but it seems to me this case is just asking for trouble.

There isnt any rush... In fact im leaving home for 10 days and plan on stocking the tank when I return. That said, I expect that if they have ich now, they will likely have it within the foreseeable future. reason I believe this is that they run corrals and inverts in their tanks as well, and so they are unlikely to copper does them, and they are also unlikely to let a tank sit dry for the massive period to kill the ich cysts...

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

Well what I mean is adjust them so they match each other. That way, when you get ready to transfer, you know there is a much better chance of the water temps matching. Sometimes what is labeled as 77 on one heater might actually be off a couple degrees in either direction.

I use a little digital therm I got off amazon for about $10. Then I adjust the heater setting based off what my therm says, not what the heater is labeled for.

Gotcha! off to buy a thermometer and some heaters that are not quite so cheap as to not have adjustments on them!

Originally Posted by CStrickland

Another option that might suit you:
If you get to know the store a little bit you can tell them what fish you're looking for. When they have one coming in on an order you can have them give you a heads up and plan to hold it at the store, in its packaging. You can swing buy and pick it up without ever having it in their ichy tanks. Some people do this regularly to have less stress on the fish from being caught more times than necessary.

I'd still qt it though, they can catch lots of stuff at the wholesaler etc. I agree with the others, best to assume all fish come with diseases. It's to his credit that he's honest about it.

This may work. Though I also suspect I should treat em as if they are sick and still use the TTM just in case they do in fact have ich from the supplier...

[CStrickland]

Originally Posted by Cobrasvt1999

This may work. Though I also suspect I should treat em as if they are sick and still use the TTM just in case they do in fact have ich from the supplier...

exactamundo!
Sounds like you're off to a great start with this tank, excited to see your progress

PS I like the meat thermometers, they are easy to calibrate and the ones labelled "NSF" are made to be pretty accurate for food. They're wicked cheap. For your main tank a ranco temp controller is one of the best pieces of equip you can get. It's like a thermostat that you plug the heater into so that the juice cuts out if the tank gets too warm. Heaters tend to fail in the "on" position, so they cook your tank when they go unless you have a controller.

[Cobrasvt1999]

Originally Posted by CStrickland

exactamundo!
Sounds like you're off to a great start with this tank, excited to see your progress

PS I like the meat thermometers, they are easy to calibrate and the ones labelled "NSF" are made to be pretty accurate for food. They're wicked cheap. For your main tank a ranco temp controller is one of the best pieces of equip you can get. It's like a thermostat that you plug the heater into so that the juice cuts out if the tank gets too warm. Heaters tend to fail in the "on" position, so they cook your tank when they go unless you have a controller.

Looks like im gona run off to get those then...

*sigh* all I ever seem to do is spend my money...

[CStrickland]

like this $2 kind, no biggie. The rancos are spendy but you can hold off on that for a minute if you're getting short and you have decent heaters
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/5-pr...FYQYHwodXCEH1Q

[Cobrasvt1999]

Originally Posted by CStrickland

like this $2 kind, no biggie. The rancos are spendy but you can hold off on that for a minute if you're getting short and you have decent heaters
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/5-pr...FYQYHwodXCEH1Q

yup! I understand. I'm just reminiscing in all the money I had before this hobby grabbed me... I dont even have fish yet and it hurts! That said, I dont exactly regret it either sooo....