Quarantined Bangai Cardinalfish Lethargic Not Aggressively Feeding

TobysReef · 01/21/2016, 01:47 PM

Hi Reefers

Last week Friday I bought 3 Bangai Cardinals just over an inch a piece and introduced them into my 20 gallon quarantine tank. (it had cycled for over a month with some live rock and a little sand all water parameters leveled and no subsequent/substantial change) I temperature then drip acclimated the 3 in the quarantine over 3 hours and once released they immediately all ate vigorously. I feed frozen brine once in the morning and once at night and until Wednesday they were all eating great. However, all day Wednesday they have turned off of the brine and over the course of the last 24 hours they have gotten lethargic. I see no physical signs of parasites or ick or injury of any kind. One of the 3 was more of a loner and my LFS said if at any point I have an issue with any of the 3 I could bring one back.

Water 1.024/79.2 degrees/nitrites >0.01 if at all/Ammonia 0/ph 8.0 alkalinity/4mg/L - 5 gallon water change Wednesday night (just trying anything) MaxiJet 400 powerhead running with air and a 20 gallon Marineland hang on filter. I use a simple T8 fluorescent over the tank.

Other than one of the three keeping more to themselves everything seemed OK. (I am/was concerned about the two pairing up on the third, which is why we made the deal on bringing one back to the LFS)

Today Thursday morning the three just are not eating like they were. It actually started yesterday. They will grab at food here or there that falls nearby, but they don't have the "piranha like" appetite towards the frozen brine, flying around the tank after it that they did 48 hours ago. They all seem to be getting more lethargic and more reclusive. One of the cardinals dorsal fins appears to be a little limp and not erect like the other two and I was seeing a bit of a list for 36 hours of that one and have been watching very closely, but he was eating and moving about (away from the other two) so I just continued to monitor. They have since all three huddled together so I lost track of "Private"

Even though I have seen no physical signs of any disease I am very concerned. As a precaution when I adopted the 3 I purchased some copper but was reluctant to use it until this morning. I was hoping it would not be necessary during the quarantine process. I added half of the recommended dosage .5 fluid oz. (1 fluid oz to 20 gallons) to the tank. The copper was added with another 4 gallon water change in the new water as it was added to the tank. The temperature Friday was lower at around 76.5, but my display hangs at 78 to 79 so I was slowly trying to bring the quarantine water temperature up. During the water change I dropped it back down and will check when I get go for lunch at 3pm.

I am fairly certain they are not wild. I watched them for two weeks at the fish store. They ate well, moved frequently and everything appeared to be going well. They were not in copper at my LFS.

This was my first attempt at adding fish via quarantine and it was after weeks of studying and over a month of waiting... My display is GREAT!!! two clowns, great clean up crew... 8 turbos, 3 emeralds, a serpent star, a coral banded, a blood red, a peppermint and bubble tip anemone, but the quarantined Bangai Cardinalfish don't appear happy...

There are just so many posts, seemingly too late... HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM and the 24 hour follow up post... ...

Does anyone have any thoughts?

ThRoewer · 01/21/2016, 02:53 PM

Fish acting lethargic and reclusive and not eating could be signs of an Amyloodinium (velvet) infection, especially if you also observe an increase in breathing frequency.

Copper is not a good treatment choice for velvet - Chloroquine Phosphate is more effective. You get it at Amazon: New Life Spectrum Ick-Shield Powder

TobysReef · 01/21/2016, 04:26 PM

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the effort. I am still very new I panicked first and I am already regretting copper. I do not intend to add anything else at this point. I have shut the canopy light off to give them some peace. There has been no rapid breathing at all, but I will certainly be monitoring that. They were initially very outgoing and really attacked the brine... even our noses through the glass and more recently, 36 or so hours, they just stopped. I am concerned about such a dramatic change in behavior. Regardless, no significant change as of this afternoon with the fish or the water. I am headed home to test the water again and watch the breathing.

Thanks I really appreciate it any and all feedback welcome

ThRoewer · 01/21/2016, 04:50 PM

Not breathing heavy is a good sign because heavy breathing is usually one of the first symptoms of a velvet or brook infection. Clamping fins is another.

In your case I would test the water of the QT for ammonia or nitrite and especially also the water temperature. I had quite a few cases where fish acted weird because the temperature got too low (or too high). An incorrectly dimensioned, wrongly adjusted or defective heater can do a lot of damage.

laga77 · 01/22/2016, 08:18 AM

Marine fish get their energy from fat in their diet, whereas humans get it from carbohydrates. Brine shrimp contain very little fat. Try feeding cut up clams or oysters or some chopped up pieces of salmon. Better still would be live white or black worms. Good luck.

TobysReef · 01/22/2016, 08:19 AM

THRoewer, What is clamping? As stated below "Private's" dorsal fin has been limp not erect like the other two and was what originally caught my attention. I was feeling as if the two had began to pair up and he was odd man out. I knew this was a very real possibility and have been prepared to remove him for his and everyone's safety, but felt I wanted to try 3 Cardinals over 2 or 4.

UPDATE:

I turned the light off yesterday at 3pm and have only turned it on briefly since. I did not to feed last night. This morning with the lights off I was seeing more normalized behavior from all three. They are huddling to the lower back corner behind a rock formation. They are all low in the tank below the filter intake but appear to be more alert. Initially the one we call "private," the loner of the group, was at the surface under the filter return listing slightly and his dorsal fin was limp. He is with the others now, but the fin is still not erect like the other two. They are not gasping or breathing heavy, still quite the opposite. There is no sign of any physical abnormality. They do not seem stressed. I did not feed this morning again. This is now 24 hours since their last frozen brine. I am considering trying something else, but I am not sure what? The only other carnivore food I have is the Hikari Frozen Cube Clam for my Condy Anemone in the display. Unless anyone has suggestions I think all I can really do is just continue to monitor them.

Any thoughts or suggestions always welcome and thanks for the feedback this far!

ThRoewer · 01/22/2016, 02:24 PM

Fin clamping looks like this:

TobysReef · 01/22/2016, 03:34 PM

No I don't see that. The dorsal id just a little limp. It is not straight up and down on the right off the back...IDK just droopy. I am hoping we are better. Everything I have read leads me to think I just had too much light for too long. They are all behaving better and are all more alert.

I appreciate all the help. I only hope through experience I can offer it to someone else in the future.

TobysReef · 01/25/2016, 12:42 PM

The cardinalfish seem to be doing much better. I believe that over feeding and too much light played into the problem. I am still watching them closely and hopefully I will be able to incorporate them into our display tank soon.

01/21/2016, 01:47 PM	#1
TobysReef Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Boston, NY Posts: 10	Quarantined Bangai Cardinalfish Lethargic Not Aggressively Feeding Hi Reefers Last week Friday I bought 3 Bangai Cardinals just over an inch a piece and introduced them into my 20 gallon quarantine tank. (it had cycled for over a month with some live rock and a little sand all water parameters leveled and no subsequent/substantial change) I temperature then drip acclimated the 3 in the quarantine over 3 hours and once released they immediately all ate vigorously. I feed frozen brine once in the morning and once at night and until Wednesday they were all eating great. However, all day Wednesday they have turned off of the brine and over the course of the last 24 hours they have gotten lethargic. I see no physical signs of parasites or ick or injury of any kind. One of the 3 was more of a loner and my LFS said if at any point I have an issue with any of the 3 I could bring one back. Water 1.024/79.2 degrees/nitrites >0.01 if at all/Ammonia 0/ph 8.0 alkalinity/4mg/L - 5 gallon water change Wednesday night (just trying anything) MaxiJet 400 powerhead running with air and a 20 gallon Marineland hang on filter. I use a simple T8 fluorescent over the tank. Other than one of the three keeping more to themselves everything seemed OK. (I am/was concerned about the two pairing up on the third, which is why we made the deal on bringing one back to the LFS) Today Thursday morning the three just are not eating like they were. It actually started yesterday. They will grab at food here or there that falls nearby, but they don't have the "piranha like" appetite towards the frozen brine, flying around the tank after it that they did 48 hours ago. They all seem to be getting more lethargic and more reclusive. One of the cardinals dorsal fins appears to be a little limp and not erect like the other two and I was seeing a bit of a list for 36 hours of that one and have been watching very closely, but he was eating and moving about (away from the other two) so I just continued to monitor. They have since all three huddled together so I lost track of "Private" Even though I have seen no physical signs of any disease I am very concerned. As a precaution when I adopted the 3 I purchased some copper but was reluctant to use it until this morning. I was hoping it would not be necessary during the quarantine process. I added half of the recommended dosage .5 fluid oz. (1 fluid oz to 20 gallons) to the tank. The copper was added with another 4 gallon water change in the new water as it was added to the tank. The temperature Friday was lower at around 76.5, but my display hangs at 78 to 79 so I was slowly trying to bring the quarantine water temperature up. During the water change I dropped it back down and will check when I get go for lunch at 3pm. I am fairly certain they are not wild. I watched them for two weeks at the fish store. They ate well, moved frequently and everything appeared to be going well. They were not in copper at my LFS. This was my first attempt at adding fish via quarantine and it was after weeks of studying and over a month of waiting... My display is GREAT!!! two clowns, great clean up crew... 8 turbos, 3 emeralds, a serpent star, a coral banded, a blood red, a peppermint and bubble tip anemone, but the quarantined Bangai Cardinalfish don't appear happy... There are just so many posts, seemingly too late... HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM and the 24 hour follow up post... ... Does anyone have any thoughts?

01/21/2016, 02:53 PM	#2
ThRoewer Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 9,555	Fish acting lethargic and reclusive and not eating could be signs of an Amyloodinium (velvet) infection, especially if you also observe an increase in breathing frequency. Copper is not a good treatment choice for velvet - Chloroquine Phosphate is more effective. You get it at Amazon: New Life Spectrum Ick-Shield Powder __________________ Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio 3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...

01/21/2016, 04:50 PM	#4
ThRoewer Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 9,555	Not breathing heavy is a good sign because heavy breathing is usually one of the first symptoms of a velvet or brook infection. Clamping fins is another. In your case I would test the water of the QT for ammonia or nitrite and especially also the water temperature. I had quite a few cases where fish acted weird because the temperature got too low (or too high). An incorrectly dimensioned, wrongly adjusted or defective heater can do a lot of damage. __________________ Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio 3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...

01/22/2016, 08:18 AM	#5
laga77 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Alsip, IL Posts: 1,133	Marine fish get their energy from fat in their diet, whereas humans get it from carbohydrates. Brine shrimp contain very little fat. Try feeding cut up clams or oysters or some chopped up pieces of salmon. Better still would be live white or black worms. Good luck. __________________ Four legs good. Two legs better. Current Tank Info: 50G SPS/NPS Reef, 120G Mixed Reef, 120G FOWRL, 29G Seahorse tank, 20G Observation tank,

01/21/2016, 04:26 PM	#3
TobysReef Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Boston, NY Posts: 10	Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the effort. I am still very new I panicked first and I am already regretting copper. I do not intend to add anything else at this point. I have shut the canopy light off to give them some peace. There has been no rapid breathing at all, but I will certainly be monitoring that. They were initially very outgoing and really attacked the brine... even our noses through the glass and more recently, 36 or so hours, they just stopped. I am concerned about such a dramatic change in behavior. Regardless, no significant change as of this afternoon with the fish or the water. I am headed home to test the water again and watch the breathing. Thanks I really appreciate it any and all feedback welcome

01/22/2016, 08:19 AM	#6
TobysReef Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Boston, NY Posts: 10	THRoewer, What is clamping? As stated below "Private's" dorsal fin has been limp not erect like the other two and was what originally caught my attention. I was feeling as if the two had began to pair up and he was odd man out. I knew this was a very real possibility and have been prepared to remove him for his and everyone's safety, but felt I wanted to try 3 Cardinals over 2 or 4. UPDATE: I turned the light off yesterday at 3pm and have only turned it on briefly since. I did not to feed last night. This morning with the lights off I was seeing more normalized behavior from all three. They are huddling to the lower back corner behind a rock formation. They are all low in the tank below the filter intake but appear to be more alert. Initially the one we call "private," the loner of the group, was at the surface under the filter return listing slightly and his dorsal fin was limp. He is with the others now, but the fin is still not erect like the other two. They are not gasping or breathing heavy, still quite the opposite. There is no sign of any physical abnormality. They do not seem stressed. I did not feed this morning again. This is now 24 hours since their last frozen brine. I am considering trying something else, but I am not sure what? The only other carnivore food I have is the Hikari Frozen Cube Clam for my Condy Anemone in the display. Unless anyone has suggestions I think all I can really do is just continue to monitor them. Any thoughts or suggestions always welcome and thanks for the feedback this far!

01/22/2016, 03:34 PM	#8
TobysReef Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Boston, NY Posts: 10	No I don't see that. The dorsal id just a little limp. It is not straight up and down on the right off the back...IDK just droopy. I am hoping we are better. Everything I have read leads me to think I just had too much light for too long. They are all behaving better and are all more alert. I appreciate all the help. I only hope through experience I can offer it to someone else in the future.

01/25/2016, 12:42 PM	#9
TobysReef Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Boston, NY Posts: 10	The cardinalfish seem to be doing much better. I believe that over feeding and too much light played into the problem. I am still watching them closely and hopefully I will be able to incorporate them into our display tank soon.