New 400G striggling a bit...

boobookitty · 02/05/2016, 12:38 PM

So, I set up the new 400G tank (96"x36'x28" a few months ago, and the cycling finished end of November. First the basics, since I know I'll get asked:

Rock: 500 pounds, combination of dry rock and live (90% dry)

Lighting: 8 x Radion 30 Pros, mounted with surface of lights 12" above water surface

Circ: Vectra L1 return from the sump, on a Sea Swirl; 2 x MP60's on either end of the tank; 2 x Wavs on the back of the tank. No dead spots.

Super Reef Octopus 6000EXT; broken in, pulls about a cup of sludge a day.

CA reactor: Dastaco A3, although it's rarely on with the light coral load so far

Bio: half a dozen tangs, a pair of diamondback gobies

Parameters:
Salinity: 1.025
Alk: stable around 8.3
CA: stable around 8.3
Mg: 1350
Nitrate:0.2
Phosphate: 0.00-0.02 (Hanna colorimeter)

The frags are a combination of montis, a couple acro stags, and a couple patches of zoas. Maybe 20 pieces total. About half of them are doing ok; not great, but not losing a lot of color. The other half are bleaching. No tissue loss, but over the course of a month they've gotten lighter and lighter.

My first thought was lighting: I run the Radions with a 3 hours ramp up of 20KK, 3 hours of 20KK at 50%, 2 hours of 14KK at 50%, 3 more hours of 20KK rampdown. I've put a PAR meter in to check levels: peak at the bottom of the tank is around 180, peak at the top of the rock is around 270.

Thoughts? Parameters all look good, but the tank is struggling a bit. I know it's a young tank, but I didn't expect to see pieces bleach like this...

toothybugs · 02/05/2016, 12:50 PM

Your nutrients might be TOO low. I try to run 2-5ppm nitrate, <.03 phosphate.

chimmike · 02/05/2016, 01:59 PM

My thoughts are the large amount of dry rock you're using is still generating beneficial bacteria, so maybe it's not converting the ammonia quite as fast, combined with powerful LED's.

Sounds like flow and everything is good.

What intensity are you running the radions at?

biecacka · 02/05/2016, 02:05 PM

How much do you feed?? Pretty small bioload in that tank to be getting about a cup of sludge out daily! I would look there first. Something is off with 8 fish in a 400 gallon tank to get a cup a day.

Corey

AZRippster · 02/05/2016, 02:21 PM

My guess would be nutrients are too low and your lighting may need to be a bit more. Google EcoTech Coral Lab Study and read the report. Your lights are probably way too low unless you have the wide angle lenses on them. You can raise them and then crank them up more to provide better coverage and increase PAR.

DivingTheWorld · 02/05/2016, 02:25 PM

My vote would be your Nitrates. I'm in the same boat as you running the exact same Phosphate/Nitrate. From what I've read, stony corals prefer 5-10ppm Nitrates and a low measure of Phosphates (about where you're at). There are two ways of raising Nitrates:

1. More fish, more fish food. A 400g tank can support A LOT of fish. If you look at most thriving coral tanks of that size, they're loaded. The down side of this is it also produces more Phosphates which you need to control (ex. GFO).

2. Dose Nitrates. This allows you to better control Nitrates without producing phosphates. Also, by increasing the Nitrates only, it generally will decrease your phosphates naturally. Many people doing this report being able to remove phosphate reducers like GFO reactors.

I'm considering #2. There are lots of threads on RC talking about it, but this one seems the most informative:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2529961

boobookitty · 02/05/2016, 03:20 PM

It's funny: when I left the hobby 5 years ago (had a 240G for 8 years before that), it was all about zeroing out phosphates and nitrates.

Ammonia and nitrite are zeroed. Probably should have also mentioned that I'm running a 40G refugium with chaeto.

The X30 G3 Radions are at 50%; I've been gunshy about running higher since the biggest problem with LEDs seems to be burning. There are 8 of them covering basically 24 square feet of tank footprint. If the lighting were too low, my past experience says that the corals would be browning out, not bleaching, no? I originally had them at 75% 20KK when the bleaching started; that's when I lowered to 50%.

I'm currently feeding a lot: twice a day, multiple squares of nori soaked in zoe and chunks of mysis. Trying to keep the fish happy. A "cup a day" is probably an overstatement: probably more like a quarter to a half cup (less than a quart a week).

AZRippster · 02/05/2016, 03:28 PM

I think your logic is sound. It may just be partly a new tank. My wife and I migrated from a 180G to a 450G Nov '14. It took a solid 6 months for things to settle in, even though a good portion of the rock we used came from our previous system. Then this past December we moved off of LEDs to MH/T5 lighting for the winter months. Things have changed drastically since then. I don't know if it's so much the change in lighting or the maturity of the tank. Past experience leads me to believe a good portion of it is the maturity, although I will say our corals are growing like weeds now.

boobookitty · 02/05/2016, 05:16 PM

Yeah, I'm prepared to be patient, I just want to make sure I'm not missing something. Again, I can raise the lighting levels from 50%, but I don't want to burn the corals, and I don't think bleaching is a result of low light levels. Any other ideas as to why some of the corals have bleached? It includes some pretty hardy corals like Pavona and montis...

AZRippster · 02/05/2016, 06:42 PM

Don't forget to research the EcoTech Coral Lab Study. They have the Radions pretty high off the tanks. I believe the standard TIR lens that comes with them are 80 degrees, which has alot of punch power. By raising the lights, it allows them to spread and blend more. It also allows for them to be turned up. Combine those things and it helps with shadowing as well.

02/05/2016, 12:38 PM	#1
boobookitty Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,340	New 400G striggling a bit... So, I set up the new 400G tank (96"x36'x28" a few months ago, and the cycling finished end of November. First the basics, since I know I'll get asked: Rock: 500 pounds, combination of dry rock and live (90% dry) Lighting: 8 x Radion 30 Pros, mounted with surface of lights 12" above water surface Circ: Vectra L1 return from the sump, on a Sea Swirl; 2 x MP60's on either end of the tank; 2 x Wavs on the back of the tank. No dead spots. Super Reef Octopus 6000EXT; broken in, pulls about a cup of sludge a day. CA reactor: Dastaco A3, although it's rarely on with the light coral load so far Bio: half a dozen tangs, a pair of diamondback gobies Parameters: Salinity: 1.025 Alk: stable around 8.3 CA: stable around 8.3 Mg: 1350 Nitrate:0.2 Phosphate: 0.00-0.02 (Hanna colorimeter) The frags are a combination of montis, a couple acro stags, and a couple patches of zoas. Maybe 20 pieces total. About half of them are doing ok; not great, but not losing a lot of color. The other half are bleaching. No tissue loss, but over the course of a month they've gotten lighter and lighter. My first thought was lighting: I run the Radions with a 3 hours ramp up of 20KK, 3 hours of 20KK at 50%, 2 hours of 14KK at 50%, 3 more hours of 20KK rampdown. I've put a PAR meter in to check levels: peak at the bottom of the tank is around 180, peak at the top of the rock is around 270. Thoughts? Parameters all look good, but the tank is struggling a bit. I know it's a young tank, but I didn't expect to see pieces bleach like this... __________________ It's a reeftank thing; you wouldn't understand. Check out my little red house above for pics Current Tank Info: 400G custom Titan tank, 8 x Radion xr30w pro, zeovit, Reef Octopus SRO6000 skimmer, Ecotech MP60, 3 x Neptune Wav

02/05/2016, 01:59 PM	#3
chimmike oxygen abuser Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Parrish, FL Posts: 5,089 Blog Entries: 2	My thoughts are the large amount of dry rock you're using is still generating beneficial bacteria, so maybe it's not converting the ammonia quite as fast, combined with powerful LED's. Sounds like flow and everything is good. What intensity are you running the radions at? __________________ -Mike Tankless wonder Geaux Noles!

02/05/2016, 02:25 PM	#6
DivingTheWorld Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: San Ramon, CA Posts: 1,963	My vote would be your Nitrates. I'm in the same boat as you running the exact same Phosphate/Nitrate. From what I've read, stony corals prefer 5-10ppm Nitrates and a low measure of Phosphates (about where you're at). There are two ways of raising Nitrates: 1. More fish, more fish food. A 400g tank can support A LOT of fish. If you look at most thriving coral tanks of that size, they're loaded. The down side of this is it also produces more Phosphates which you need to control (ex. GFO). 2. Dose Nitrates. This allows you to better control Nitrates without producing phosphates. Also, by increasing the Nitrates only, it generally will decrease your phosphates naturally. Many people doing this report being able to remove phosphate reducers like GFO reactors. I'm considering #2. There are lots of threads on RC talking about it, but this one seems the most informative: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2529961 __________________ Current Tank Info: LeeMar Rimless (40x24x22), ATI 8x39 Dimmable w/Reefbrite XHO, 2x Vortech MP40w QD w/ Battery Backup, Apex Gold, Trigger Systems Ruby30S, Reef Octopus POV-DC1 w/Auto Waste Collector

02/05/2016, 03:20 PM	#7
boobookitty Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,340	It's funny: when I left the hobby 5 years ago (had a 240G for 8 years before that), it was all about zeroing out phosphates and nitrates. Ammonia and nitrite are zeroed. Probably should have also mentioned that I'm running a 40G refugium with chaeto. The X30 G3 Radions are at 50%; I've been gunshy about running higher since the biggest problem with LEDs seems to be burning. There are 8 of them covering basically 24 square feet of tank footprint. If the lighting were too low, my past experience says that the corals would be browning out, not bleaching, no? I originally had them at 75% 20KK when the bleaching started; that's when I lowered to 50%. I'm currently feeding a lot: twice a day, multiple squares of nori soaked in zoe and chunks of mysis. Trying to keep the fish happy. A "cup a day" is probably an overstatement: probably more like a quarter to a half cup (less than a quart a week). __________________ It's a reeftank thing; you wouldn't understand. Check out my little red house above for pics Current Tank Info: 400G custom Titan tank, 8 x Radion xr30w pro, zeovit, Reef Octopus SRO6000 skimmer, Ecotech MP60, 3 x Neptune Wav

02/05/2016, 05:16 PM	#9
boobookitty Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,340	Yeah, I'm prepared to be patient, I just want to make sure I'm not missing something. Again, I can raise the lighting levels from 50%, but I don't want to burn the corals, and I don't think bleaching is a result of low light levels. Any other ideas as to why some of the corals have bleached? It includes some pretty hardy corals like Pavona and montis... __________________ It's a reeftank thing; you wouldn't understand. Check out my little red house above for pics Current Tank Info: 400G custom Titan tank, 8 x Radion xr30w pro, zeovit, Reef Octopus SRO6000 skimmer, Ecotech MP60, 3 x Neptune Wav

02/05/2016, 12:50 PM	#2
toothybugs In Memoriam Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: The smallest county in Illinois Posts: 1,986	Your nutrients might be TOO low. I try to run 2-5ppm nitrate, <.03 phosphate.

02/05/2016, 02:05 PM	#4
biecacka Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Columbus Ohio Posts: 6,361	How much do you feed?? Pretty small bioload in that tank to be getting about a cup of sludge out daily! I would look there first. Something is off with 8 fish in a 400 gallon tank to get a cup a day. Corey

02/05/2016, 02:21 PM	#5
AZRippster Diver & Reef Aquarium Nut Join Date: May 2012 Location: Sierra Vista, AZ Posts: 1,127	My guess would be nutrients are too low and your lighting may need to be a bit more. Google EcoTech Coral Lab Study and read the report. Your lights are probably way too low unless you have the wide angle lenses on them. You can raise them and then crank them up more to provide better coverage and increase PAR.

02/05/2016, 03:28 PM	#8
AZRippster Diver & Reef Aquarium Nut Join Date: May 2012 Location: Sierra Vista, AZ Posts: 1,127	I think your logic is sound. It may just be partly a new tank. My wife and I migrated from a 180G to a 450G Nov '14. It took a solid 6 months for things to settle in, even though a good portion of the rock we used came from our previous system. Then this past December we moved off of LEDs to MH/T5 lighting for the winter months. Things have changed drastically since then. I don't know if it's so much the change in lighting or the maturity of the tank. Past experience leads me to believe a good portion of it is the maturity, although I will say our corals are growing like weeds now.

02/05/2016, 06:42 PM	#10
AZRippster Diver & Reef Aquarium Nut Join Date: May 2012 Location: Sierra Vista, AZ Posts: 1,127	Don't forget to research the EcoTech Coral Lab Study. They have the Radions pretty high off the tanks. I believe the standard TIR lens that comes with them are 80 degrees, which has alot of punch power. By raising the lights, it allows them to spread and blend more. It also allows for them to be turned up. Combine those things and it helps with shadowing as well.