Canister with Refugium / Sump Questions

mike.p · 02/08/2016, 03:17 AM

Hi Everyone!

Long time lurker, finally making my first post. I've read a lot, and searched until my eyes bled, but I can't seem to find the answer I need. So I'm hoping for some help and advice. I'm not entirely "new," but I've been out of it for a few years now. I used to have a 75g reef tank, which I ran off of a Fluval 406 canister filter, hang on skimmer, and UV sterilizer, and it did fine, so I was hoping to either replicate the plan, or do something a little different.

Here's what's going on:

When my remodel is finished, I'll be buying a 150g tank (48x24x30.) One of my friends gave me a brand new Fluval FX-6 canister filter. I also have a $150 gift card to PetSmart, so I could buy a second FX-6 for essentially half off. Initially, that was my plan, just run two of those guys.

But then I got to thinking... What if I also get a decent size refugium, like an Eshopps R-200, and combine it with an FX-6? This could be done in the following ways:

- Use the FX-6 to draw from the return chamber of the R-200, and pump the water up to the tank.

- Use the FX-6 to draw from the return chamber of the R-200, send it back to the refugium, and then use a standard pump to send it back up to the tank.

-Use the FX-6 to draw from the return chamber of the R-200, then connect the output directly to a standard pump, and have the pump send it back up to the tank (I'm already almost 100% certain that this wouldn't work, as I'm sure there's no good way to match the flow-rates of the pump and the FX-6.)

So that's kind of where I'm at. Either run two FX-6's, FX-6 + Refugium, or just a Refugium. In the case of the latter, as I see a lot of people just use a refugium or sump, where does all of the filtration come from? I'm sure this is a stupid question, but where do you put all the carbon, phos-ban, pads, polishers, bio-media, etc.? I know you can get separate reactors, but then how do you plumb all that with one pump?

Anyway, I know that was a whole lot... lol. I'm just really excited, and want to try to make the best setup possible. All ideas, advice, thoughts, and criticisms are welcome. Thanks in advance, and I'm happy to be here. =)

scuzy · 02/08/2016, 03:24 AM

Most people don't use a filter and just a refugium and sump setup. The filtration is done through your live rocks. The various reactors are plumb through pvc and a large single return pump.

SFish · 02/08/2016, 05:04 AM

Forget the canister and as far as the sump wait for the $1/gal sale and you can save a lot of money there as well. Most people don't run a UV.

Sapelo · 02/08/2016, 06:21 AM

Oh a new build very exciting!

See above, you'll find that most people here do not run and do not like canisters.
Two main reasons:
1. They do little to increase you water volume and you want greater water volume for better tank stability.
2. They are known for being detritus traps. Since you can't see inside them you cant know what's going on without opening them which you'd need to do really regularly.

It can be done and it can be done well, but most of us who have done it have also moved on to a sump, it's just a whole lot easier.
You can heed advice now or repeat the "don't do what I did" later.

Good luck and welcome!!!

maxinf · 02/08/2016, 08:02 AM

Have you thought about getting a sump and using the canisters as a GFO reactor instead?

mike.p · 02/08/2016, 02:27 PM

Thanks for the advice everyone! And I'm glad to be here. This is definitely food for thought... I see the general verdict is a sump, not refugium. What's the main difference, just the lack of an additional chamber>

Maxinf, I have thought about doing that. To do so, do you just to pack the canister full of media, like carbon, phos-ban, GFO, and whatever else? Then leave all pads out of it?

jrr98002 · 02/08/2016, 02:35 PM

Canister filters aren't generally used as they are detritus traps as mentioned above, and are really only best if you don't have the room for a sump. A refugium can be ran inside a sump if it's large enough (like you said, it's just an additional chamber in the sump) but their main advantage is growing pods and macroalgae. The macroalgae can help with your nutrient export, but it isn't necessary. As that one guy said, you're going to want your main filtration to be the live rock in the tank. If you have enough of that (at least 1 lb/gal, ideally 1.25 or even 1.5) then you could probably get away without the refugium altogether. In my tank I just tore down after my last move, I had 110 lbs of rock in a 70 gallon, and never had a problem whatsoever with high nutrients.

scuzy · 02/08/2016, 02:36 PM

Most have their refugium in the sump. It just adds a extra layer to help with nutrient my exports.

RocketEngineer · 02/08/2016, 03:55 PM

Let's back up a step and go back to basics: A canister filter does not have a strong enough pump to move water from a sump under the tank back into the display. They just aren't built that way so you will need a return pump in order to run any kind of sump.

Second, a refugium is any volume within a system where predators are kept out to allow a population of "something" to grow without being constantly eaten. The "something" is usually macro algae used for nutrient export. It can also be a space for pods to live and breed where there are no fish to eat them. The refugium can be anything from a separate tank to an area of a sump as it just needs to be a part of the overall system to do it's job.

OP: To answer your question on how folks run reactors and a refugium off a single pump, here is a picture of my sump and plumbing before I installed them into the stand.

The return pipe is split into a return to the tank going through a valve, and a manifold that supplies my reactor (the barb fitting right above the baffle) and my refugium (the elbow in the corner). What is missing from the picture are the two valves, one on each outlet, that I use to regulate the flow to all three. Some folks have more then one reactor so they have more complicated manifolds. For me, I just run the one reactor when I need to run anything. Otherwise the reactor runs without anything in it.

HTH,

mike.p · 02/08/2016, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketEngineer

Let's back up a step and go back to basics: A canister filter does not have a strong enough pump to move water from a sump under the tank back into the display. They just aren't built that way so you will need a return pump in order to run any kind of sump.

Second, a refugium is any volume within a system where predators are kept out to allow a population of "something" to grow without being constantly eaten. The "something" is usually macro algae used for nutrient export. It can also be a space for pods to live and breed where there are no fish to eat them. The refugium can be anything from a separate tank to an area of a sump as it just needs to be a part of the overall system to do it's job.

OP: To answer your question on how folks run reactors and a refugium off a single pump, here is a picture of my sump and plumbing before I installed them into the stand.

The return pipe is split into a return to the tank going through a valve, and a manifold that supplies my reactor (the barb fitting right above the baffle) and my refugium (the elbow in the corner). What is missing from the picture are the two valves, one on each outlet, that I use to regulate the flow to all three. Some folks have more then one reactor so they have more complicated manifolds. For me, I just run the one reactor when I need to run anything. Otherwise the reactor runs without anything in it.

HTH,

Wow! That's great advice, and thanks for the pic. That definitely makes it more clear. I think I'll end up getting a pre-made sump or fuge though... My DIY skills are sorely lacking in that regard. lol.

It's interesting that so many people have brought up live rock, of which I do intend to get at least 150-200 lbs of for this tank. Maybe I'm falsely attributing the success of my last tank to the canister filter I was running it off of... Because I had a ton of rock in there, for a 75g. At least 100 pounds if I recall correctly. Maybe that was the secret all along.

02/08/2016, 03:17 AM	#1
mike.p Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 34	Canister with Refugium / Sump Questions Hi Everyone! Long time lurker, finally making my first post. I've read a lot, and searched until my eyes bled, but I can't seem to find the answer I need. So I'm hoping for some help and advice. I'm not entirely "new," but I've been out of it for a few years now. I used to have a 75g reef tank, which I ran off of a Fluval 406 canister filter, hang on skimmer, and UV sterilizer, and it did fine, so I was hoping to either replicate the plan, or do something a little different. Here's what's going on: When my remodel is finished, I'll be buying a 150g tank (48x24x30.) One of my friends gave me a brand new Fluval FX-6 canister filter. I also have a $150 gift card to PetSmart, so I could buy a second FX-6 for essentially half off. Initially, that was my plan, just run two of those guys. But then I got to thinking... What if I also get a decent size refugium, like an Eshopps R-200, and combine it with an FX-6? This could be done in the following ways: - Use the FX-6 to draw from the return chamber of the R-200, and pump the water up to the tank. - Use the FX-6 to draw from the return chamber of the R-200, send it back to the refugium, and then use a standard pump to send it back up to the tank. -Use the FX-6 to draw from the return chamber of the R-200, then connect the output directly to a standard pump, and have the pump send it back up to the tank (I'm already almost 100% certain that this wouldn't work, as I'm sure there's no good way to match the flow-rates of the pump and the FX-6.) So that's kind of where I'm at. Either run two FX-6's, FX-6 + Refugium, or just a Refugium. In the case of the latter, as I see a lot of people just use a refugium or sump, where does all of the filtration come from? I'm sure this is a stupid question, but where do you put all the carbon, phos-ban, pads, polishers, bio-media, etc.? I know you can get separate reactors, but then how do you plumb all that with one pump? Anyway, I know that was a whole lot... lol. I'm just really excited, and want to try to make the best setup possible. All ideas, advice, thoughts, and criticisms are welcome. Thanks in advance, and I'm happy to be here. =)

02/08/2016, 03:55 PM	#9
RocketEngineer Space is big. Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Maryland Eastern Shore Posts: 3,226	Let's back up a step and go back to basics: A canister filter does not have a strong enough pump to move water from a sump under the tank back into the display. They just aren't built that way so you will need a return pump in order to run any kind of sump. Second, a refugium is any volume within a system where predators are kept out to allow a population of "something" to grow without being constantly eaten. The "something" is usually macro algae used for nutrient export. It can also be a space for pods to live and breed where there are no fish to eat them. The refugium can be anything from a separate tank to an area of a sump as it just needs to be a part of the overall system to do it's job. OP: To answer your question on how folks run reactors and a refugium off a single pump, here is a picture of my sump and plumbing before I installed them into the stand. The return pipe is split into a return to the tank going through a valve, and a manifold that supplies my reactor (the barb fitting right above the baffle) and my refugium (the elbow in the corner). What is missing from the picture are the two valves, one on each outlet, that I use to regulate the flow to all three. Some folks have more then one reactor so they have more complicated manifolds. For me, I just run the one reactor when I need to run anything. Otherwise the reactor runs without anything in it. HTH, __________________ -RocketEngineer "Knowledge is what you get when you read the directions, experience is what you get when you don't." - Unknown Current Tank Info: None Currently

02/08/2016, 03:24 AM	#2
scuzy Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 6,499	Most people don't use a filter and just a refugium and sump setup. The filtration is done through your live rocks. The various reactors are plumb through pvc and a large single return pump.

02/08/2016, 05:04 AM	#3
SFish Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 2,062	Forget the canister and as far as the sump wait for the $1/gal sale and you can save a lot of money there as well. Most people don't run a UV.

02/08/2016, 06:21 AM	#4
Sapelo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: North Georgia Posts: 869	Oh a new build very exciting! See above, you'll find that most people here do not run and do not like canisters. Two main reasons: 1. They do little to increase you water volume and you want greater water volume for better tank stability. 2. They are known for being detritus traps. Since you can't see inside them you cant know what's going on without opening them which you'd need to do really regularly. It can be done and it can be done well, but most of us who have done it have also moved on to a sump, it's just a whole lot easier. You can heed advice now or repeat the "don't do what I did" later. Good luck and welcome!!!

02/08/2016, 08:02 AM	#5
maxinf Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 2	Have you thought about getting a sump and using the canisters as a GFO reactor instead?

02/08/2016, 02:27 PM	#6
mike.p Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 34	Thanks for the advice everyone! And I'm glad to be here. This is definitely food for thought... I see the general verdict is a sump, not refugium. What's the main difference, just the lack of an additional chamber> Maxinf, I have thought about doing that. To do so, do you just to pack the canister full of media, like carbon, phos-ban, GFO, and whatever else? Then leave all pads out of it?

02/08/2016, 02:35 PM	#7
jrr98002 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Little Rock Posts: 235	Canister filters aren't generally used as they are detritus traps as mentioned above, and are really only best if you don't have the room for a sump. A refugium can be ran inside a sump if it's large enough (like you said, it's just an additional chamber in the sump) but their main advantage is growing pods and macroalgae. The macroalgae can help with your nutrient export, but it isn't necessary. As that one guy said, you're going to want your main filtration to be the live rock in the tank. If you have enough of that (at least 1 lb/gal, ideally 1.25 or even 1.5) then you could probably get away without the refugium altogether. In my tank I just tore down after my last move, I had 110 lbs of rock in a 70 gallon, and never had a problem whatsoever with high nutrients.

02/08/2016, 02:36 PM	#8
scuzy Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 6,499	Most have their refugium in the sump. It just adds a extra layer to help with nutrient my exports.