Need some advice on sump use

JWally · 03/05/2016, 12:24 AM

I have a 180g with a small 24 gallon sump. I had the flow adjusted with the same amount going into the sump as being returned by the use of ball valves on the two inlets from the two overflows. After just a week, I noticed the pump was starting to pick up air because my flow was now wrong. I was now pumping out faster than I had going in the sump. I assume because the inlet filter of the sump (a piece of filter media that lays across the top of a tray that has holes to evenly allow water to flow through the bio balls), any way; I assume the filter is getting food, poo etc in it and slowing the flow into the sump down. First, is there suppose to be a filter at the inlet of the sump and second, if so, is it normal to have to adjust the flow after just a week. I will note, I also have filter material at the top of the gravity feed pipes. Any help will be greatly appreciated. I have never used a sump before. I have read many articles and watched plenty of U tube videos, but don't recall seeing this issue addressed. Thanks

Dkuhlmann · 03/05/2016, 05:47 AM

It sounds like your "sump" is setup as more of a filter than anything else, this isn't the normal function of a sump per se. Can you post some pictures of your setup and we can help you from there.

One huge note is that there is no way that size is going to be large enough to be a sump for a 180 gallon tank. You will need in the neighborhood of a 55-75 gal at a min IMO.

Do a search here for "sump" and start reading, in the meantime get us some pictures. From the sounds of it you're going to have a lot of changes to make and I'm just also wondering out loud, Who designed this "sump"?

gone fishin · 03/05/2016, 06:22 AM

What type of overflows system do you have? durso, herbie, bean.

Speaking in general terms a ball valve is a poor choice to control flow and using valves on the drains are a poor choice. Any type of restriction can cause a change in the flow like your seeing, with bad consequences such as tank overflows or the potential to burn up a pump. Generally the flow would be controlled by the outlet valve on the return pump or a recirculation loop put in after the return pump.

In your case I believe the restrictions are coming from all the filter media prior to the sump.

I agree with Dave it seems like your sump is set up more like a filter and pics would be helpful. FWIW I have a 55g sump on my setup.

In your current configuration I do not think you will be able to effectively tune your flows.

JWally · 03/05/2016, 11:11 AM

Thought I must of set it up wrong. I bought the tank and sump used and set it up the way they had it running. Not sure what type of overflow system I have. It is a pre-drilled tank and has two overflows, one in each corner. I will get some pics and post. I also have valves on the return and installed unions on the pump side so I can change the pump if ever needed without a big issue. I have a canister filter for filtering. I am in the process of getting a larger canister filter for a better filtration. Guess I will invest in a larger sump as well. Thanks. I will post pics later.

Dkuhlmann · 03/05/2016, 11:20 AM

Don't waste your money on a canister filter for your tank. The sump with LR and the LR in your tank is all the filters you need, with the addition of a protein skimmer.

Live rock is a biological filter and what most of us use. There is a sticky called Setting up with the big red arrow, read that.

gone fishin · 03/05/2016, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWally

Thought I must of set it up wrong. I bought the tank and sump used and set it up the way they had it running. Not sure what type of overflow system I have. It is a pre-drilled tank and has two overflows, one in each corner. I will get some pics and post. I also have valves on the return and installed unions on the pump side so I can change the pump if ever needed without a big issue. I have a canister filter for filtering. I am in the process of getting a larger canister filter for a better filtration. Guess I will invest in a larger sump as well. Thanks. I will post pics later.

I would suspect from your description you have a durso setup. Using valves on the drains to throttle flow is definitely asking for trouble.

CStrickland · 03/05/2016, 12:51 PM

It sounds to me like a wet/dry setup. That with the canister filter was a really common sump design a few years ago, and a lot of people still use them. The trouble with the filter pads and bioballs, and also the media in the canister, is that they trap the stuff in a place where there is a lot of flow. That puts the bacterial filtration out of balance, because the last step of waste processing doesn't like a lot of oxygen. The extra water current isn't amenable to that, so you wind up breaking down the waste only as far as the nitrate stage, but not all the way out of the tank.

So bioballs and filter pads are less common now, that type of crap-trapping filtration is more suited to freshwater tanks. The new school relies on bacteria in the rocks and sand and all over the surface of the tank to grow and process the waste all the way out of the tank. If you want to use crap-traps like this, or filter socks, it's best to clean them twice a week or so. That's too annoying with bioballs, see?

Your sump design can be whatever you want. It totally depends on what you want it to do. All it is, is some extra water that's separate from the DT. If you want it to just hide your heaters and other equipment, it only needs to be that big. I used a 5 gallon bucket for a while since I just wanted to run a filter sock and hide equipment. If you want to grow a massive amount of algae in it, you need a bigger one. IMO, first you identify the task and then you pick your tool. Sumps are a great tool.

Here's a good article about sumps, and there's more info elsewhere on the page about diff designs and stuff http://www.melevsreef.com/node/710

Sk8r · 03/05/2016, 02:11 PM

I don't use any filter material. The return pump pumps it up at a certain rate, and the return pipe lets it fall down via gravity, with nothing to slow it down. Your gate valve should not be on the down line, but on the up line. Restrain the pump until you get a rate that the downflow can handle. If you don't have ENOUGH pump to keep ahead of the downflow...the drainage will slow to a trickle so the system seems to stop and spurt. But any restraint should be ONLY on the up line. Restricting the down line whether by valve or clogged filter can lead to a flood.

JWally · 03/05/2016, 04:04 PM

Appreciate all the help. I have now restricted flow from pump just a bit and opened drain lines completely up. Thanks.

03/05/2016, 12:24 AM	#1
JWally Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Russell, Kentucky Posts: 26	Need some advice on sump use I have a 180g with a small 24 gallon sump. I had the flow adjusted with the same amount going into the sump as being returned by the use of ball valves on the two inlets from the two overflows. After just a week, I noticed the pump was starting to pick up air because my flow was now wrong. I was now pumping out faster than I had going in the sump. I assume because the inlet filter of the sump (a piece of filter media that lays across the top of a tray that has holes to evenly allow water to flow through the bio balls), any way; I assume the filter is getting food, poo etc in it and slowing the flow into the sump down. First, is there suppose to be a filter at the inlet of the sump and second, if so, is it normal to have to adjust the flow after just a week. I will note, I also have filter material at the top of the gravity feed pipes. Any help will be greatly appreciated. I have never used a sump before. I have read many articles and watched plenty of U tube videos, but don't recall seeing this issue addressed. Thanks

03/05/2016, 05:47 AM	#2
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	It sounds like your "sump" is setup as more of a filter than anything else, this isn't the normal function of a sump per se. Can you post some pictures of your setup and we can help you from there. One huge note is that there is no way that size is going to be large enough to be a sump for a 180 gallon tank. You will need in the neighborhood of a 55-75 gal at a min IMO. Do a search here for "sump" and start reading, in the meantime get us some pictures. From the sounds of it you're going to have a lot of changes to make and I'm just also wondering out loud, Who designed this "sump"? __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

03/05/2016, 06:22 AM	#3
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	What type of overflows system do you have? durso, herbie, bean. Speaking in general terms a ball valve is a poor choice to control flow and using valves on the drains are a poor choice. Any type of restriction can cause a change in the flow like your seeing, with bad consequences such as tank overflows or the potential to burn up a pump. Generally the flow would be controlled by the outlet valve on the return pump or a recirculation loop put in after the return pump. In your case I believe the restrictions are coming from all the filter media prior to the sump. I agree with Dave it seems like your sump is set up more like a filter and pics would be helpful. FWIW I have a 55g sump on my setup. In your current configuration I do not think you will be able to effectively tune your flows. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

03/05/2016, 11:20 AM	#5
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	Don't waste your money on a canister filter for your tank. The sump with LR and the LR in your tank is all the filters you need, with the addition of a protein skimmer. Live rock is a biological filter and what most of us use. There is a sticky called Setting up with the big red arrow, read that. __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

03/05/2016, 12:51 PM	#7
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	It sounds to me like a wet/dry setup. That with the canister filter was a really common sump design a few years ago, and a lot of people still use them. The trouble with the filter pads and bioballs, and also the media in the canister, is that they trap the stuff in a place where there is a lot of flow. That puts the bacterial filtration out of balance, because the last step of waste processing doesn't like a lot of oxygen. The extra water current isn't amenable to that, so you wind up breaking down the waste only as far as the nitrate stage, but not all the way out of the tank. So bioballs and filter pads are less common now, that type of crap-trapping filtration is more suited to freshwater tanks. The new school relies on bacteria in the rocks and sand and all over the surface of the tank to grow and process the waste all the way out of the tank. If you want to use crap-traps like this, or filter socks, it's best to clean them twice a week or so. That's too annoying with bioballs, see? Your sump design can be whatever you want. It totally depends on what you want it to do. All it is, is some extra water that's separate from the DT. If you want it to just hide your heaters and other equipment, it only needs to be that big. I used a 5 gallon bucket for a while since I just wanted to run a filter sock and hide equipment. If you want to grow a massive amount of algae in it, you need a bigger one. IMO, first you identify the task and then you pick your tool. Sumps are a great tool. Here's a good article about sumps, and there's more info elsewhere on the page about diff designs and stuff http://www.melevsreef.com/node/710 __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

03/05/2016, 11:11 AM	#4
JWally Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Russell, Kentucky Posts: 26	Thought I must of set it up wrong. I bought the tank and sump used and set it up the way they had it running. Not sure what type of overflow system I have. It is a pre-drilled tank and has two overflows, one in each corner. I will get some pics and post. I also have valves on the return and installed unions on the pump side so I can change the pump if ever needed without a big issue. I have a canister filter for filtering. I am in the process of getting a larger canister filter for a better filtration. Guess I will invest in a larger sump as well. Thanks. I will post pics later.

03/05/2016, 02:11 PM	#8
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	I don't use any filter material. The return pump pumps it up at a certain rate, and the return pipe lets it fall down via gravity, with nothing to slow it down. Your gate valve should not be on the down line, but on the up line. Restrain the pump until you get a rate that the downflow can handle. If you don't have ENOUGH pump to keep ahead of the downflow...the drainage will slow to a trickle so the system seems to stop and spurt. But any restraint should be ONLY on the up line. Restricting the down line whether by valve or clogged filter can lead to a flood. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/05/2016, 04:04 PM	#9
JWally Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Russell, Kentucky Posts: 26	Appreciate all the help. I have now restricted flow from pump just a bit and opened drain lines completely up. Thanks.