Tweaking a 'too clean' reef to raise nitrates to 1-2ppm (SPS Tank)

[greg683x]

So Ive got a system thats been running for about 7 months now. So far so good, everything seems very well balanced. No nuisance algae, Ive got the right amount of kalk in my ATO so it keeps my calcium steady around 430. My Alk is always stable at 7-8 dkh.

Ive got a monti cap, a green slimer, a hawkins, and a pink birdnest in the tank currently. Theyre doing well for the most part. Theyve shown small amounts of growth, though theyre growing very slowly. The slimer Ive only added recently, the hawkins and birdnest Ive had since the beginning of June, the monti cap Ive had since April. The color is nice, aside from the LED shading issue Im currently trying to remedy.

SO what Im trying to do, is slightly raise my nutrient levels to give my corals a bit of a color and growth boost. Right now my system is running very clean, nitrates and phosphates are undetectable. What I would like to do is get my nitrates raised to about 2ppm, while keeping the phosphates right around undetectable. So my plan of action is to keep running GFO in my dual reactor but to STOP running carbon, as Ive read that it can help reduce nitrates (correct me if im wrong). Also, ive ordered a bottle of acropower from BRS and will start to dose that when it arrives on Monday and then closely monitor the nitrate levels.

From what Ive read on previous posts that Ive searched, adding the amino acids seems to give the nutrients the boost it needs to help supplement the corals so I wanted to give it a try and see if I can get my nitrates to a good spot without accidentally bombing my system with a ton of nitrates. Ive tried feeding a ton of food and it never seems to make a difference. Ive got a purple tang, a lawnmower blenny, two black clowns, a melinarus wrasse, a leopard wrasse, and a watchman goby. So Ive got a good amount of fish providing waste for a 100 gallon total system. So we'll see if this will work. Any suggestions??

[Flippers4pups]

You could always feed fish and coral more as long as your P04 doesn't get out of hand. That's what I do. I also dose fuel from time to time.

[outssider]

If you're needing to clean your glass every 3-4 days, you are in the sweet spot. If you're not careful with the additional nutrients, you could end up with various algae/Cyano problems. algae is easy to get but hard to get rid of.....

[greg683x]

Ok, now well that bothers me.

Because I DO need to clean my glass every 3-4 days. Not because its getting covered with a thick green film of algae, but because there is a clear film developing on it which would inevitably become algae.

If I AM in this sweet spot, then why dont I ever get ANY measureable nitrates.....EVER. Not once since the tank finished cycling last January. I do get limited growth from the corals, so yeah, theyre not starving but I keep reading about how when youre nitrates are at 1-2ppm, the corals take off. Reading all this among other things, has led me to believe that I have a low-nutrient system, but I could be wrong

If the reason why my nitrates are unmeasurable is because theyre being consumed by the corals, then wouldnt any adequately coral heavy tank have no measurable nitrates? Should I remove the chaeto from my sump?

[Bdial]

Could you provide some info on your equipment, feedings, maintenance, and maybe some pictures.

[greg683x]

Originally Posted by Bdial

Could you provide some info on your equipment, feedings, maintenance, and maybe some pictures.

-- 90 Gallon tank with 40 gallon sump
-- SUPER REEF OCTOPUS XP1000SSS Protein Skimmer
-- BRS Dual Carbon/GFO reactor (just stopped running Carbon)
-- (2) Kessil A360W -E Lights mounted 8" above the water
-- Currently acclimating Corals to a 36" t5 fixture to with coral+ and blue + bulbs (being used to supplement the Kessils, not replace)
-- (2) Jaebo RW-8 Wavemakers mounted on the back glass pushing water to the front

-- Change sump filter sock every couple days
-- 5% water change every weekend (though I skipped it this weekend in an effort to see a nitrate bump)
-- Tanks been running since last December (2015)

-- Stock list -- 2 Black Clown Perculas, Watchmen Goby, Melinarus Wrasse, small Purple Tang, Lawnmower Blenny, Leopard Wrasse

-- Corals -- Hawkins frag, pink birdsnest frag, orange monti cap, green pocillopora damicornis frag, hammer coral frag, and zoa garden. Acclimating a green slimer frag


-- I feed once a day with Reef Frenzy, I break off a piece about the size of a penny
-- Every other day or so I also put in a 1/4 sheet of seaweed thats gone by the end of the evening

[greg683x]

Here are some pics, sorry about the quality, I dont have a great camera, just my iphone.

[outssider]

Originally Posted by greg683x

but I could be wrong

I always ran close to zero on nitrates and phosphates but had to clean glass every 3 days. once I got to (.75) nitrates and 0-.03 ppm phosphates I started to develop nuisance algae and cyano outbreaks. I have now upped my carbon dosing to the point that I need to clean glass every 7-10 days. running at this low level nutrient has taken a toll on some corals but not the sps. my point here is that I had more nutrients than the tests showed but they were being consumed by algae and corals so the test showed no nutrients.

most sps grow slow, they seem especially slow when you're looking at them daily. I am stuck now trying to starve out bryopsis while keeping everything else happy.

[Bdial]

Your 5% water change will not play a huge part in your nitrate/phosphate unless you are blasting your rocks and siphoning really well. 5% would mainly replace nutrients. Your lighting could be an issue but I'm not sure about the kessil lights.
Remove the filter sock. It's trapping food for your corals. Mine perked up a lot with no sock. Your corals look good from the pics. Give it some time.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by greg683x

So Ive got a system thats been running for about 7 months now. So far so good, everything seems very well balanced. No nuisance algae, Ive got the right amount of kalk in my ATO so it keeps my calcium steady around 430. My Alk is always stable at 7-8 dkh.

Ive got a monti cap, a green slimer, a hawkins, and a pink birdnest in the tank currently. Theyre doing well for the most part. Theyve shown small amounts of growth, though theyre growing very slowly. The slimer Ive only added recently, the hawkins and birdnest Ive had since the beginning of June, the monti cap Ive had since April. The color is nice, aside from the LED shading issue Im currently trying to remedy.

SO what Im trying to do, is slightly raise my nutrient levels to give my corals a bit of a color and growth boost. Right now my system is running very clean, nitrates and phosphates are undetectable. What I would like to do is get my nitrates raised to about 2ppm, while keeping the phosphates right around undetectable. So my plan of action is to keep running GFO in my dual reactor but to STOP running carbon, as Ive read that it can help reduce nitrates (correct me if im wrong). Also, ive ordered a bottle of acropower from BRS and will start to dose that when it arrives on Monday and then closely monitor the nitrate levels.

From what Ive read on previous posts that Ive searched, adding the amino acids seems to give the nutrients the boost it needs to help supplement the corals so I wanted to give it a try and see if I can get my nitrates to a good spot without accidentally bombing my system with a ton of nitrates. Ive tried feeding a ton of food and it never seems to make a difference. Ive got a purple tang, a lawnmower blenny, two black clowns, a melinarus wrasse, a leopard wrasse, and a watchman goby. So Ive got a good amount of fish providing waste for a 100 gallon total system. So we'll see if this will work. Any suggestions??

First, removing activated carbon is not a good way to raise nitrates. Activated carbon removes 80% of DOC compared to 30% removed by protein skimmers. If you want to raise nitrate only, then use a clean source like ammonia. Seachem Flourish nitrate is specific for aquariums.

[Mr. Wiggles]

Looks to me like the corals just need some more time to grow. Usually once things reach a certain size the growth just takes off.

If you decide to add something to raise nitrates, certainly don't use the ammonia the previous poster suggested. That would be a good way to kill the tank. Use sodium or post assign nitrate. Keep in mind that 1 ppm is a milligram per liter. So, your 100g tank would need about 375mg if it was just water. Since you have rock and sand and things you could try for about 250mg. I would use a good balance and make a stock solution to make dosing easy, but be careful it is easy to over do it.

[solitude127]

what test kits are you using to measure PO4 and NO3?

[oseymour]

I wouldn't mess with the tank. My SPS didn't start to grow until I left them alone and gave them time to settle in. I have montipora that didn't grow for 3 or 4 months and then exploded.

What is the intensity of the Kessil lights? photoperiod, how high off the tank, and how far apart are they?

[Sk8r]

"...didn't grow until I left them alone..."
x2, ime. Neglect and same-old same-old of an adequately nutritious food might help. I've found that any 'looseness' of a mount (wobble in the current)---change in flow, change in light, change in most anything...may not be beneficial in terms of coral growth. Keeping your nitrate low is good, having good lighting and flow is good, but a lot of intervention and change could become a problem. Corals, esp sps, seem to be such stodges!

[Bdial]

"...didn't grow til I left them alone.."
x3
Quit tinkering and wanting to add things. Just continue what your doing and they'll grow. IMO I would continue to run carbon. It is a very effective media.

[greg683x]

Originally Posted by solitude127

what test kits are you using to measure PO4 and NO3?

Salifert for PO4 (though I have a hanna coming in the mail)

Red Sea for NO3

[greg683x]

Originally Posted by oseymour

I wouldn't mess with the tank. My SPS didn't start to grow until I left them alone and gave them time to settle in. I have montipora that didn't grow for 3 or 4 months and then exploded.

What is the intensity of the Kessil lights? photoperiod, how high off the tank, and how far apart are they?

Kessil lights are about 8" above the water, spaced about 2' apart. They run 12hours, 10am to 10pm-

settings are:

10am - 5% color/25% intensity
12pm - 20% color/50% intensity
2pm - 30% color/65% intensity
5pm - 35% color/65% intensity
7pm - 30% color/40% intensity
10pm - 0%color/0% intensity

[oseymour]

Originally Posted by greg683x

Kessil lights are about 8" above the water, spaced about 2' apart. They run 12hours, 10am to 10pm-

settings are:

10am - 5% color/25% intensity
12pm - 20% color/50% intensity
2pm - 30% color/65% intensity
5pm - 35% color/65% intensity
7pm - 30% color/40% intensity
10pm - 0%color/0% intensity

For a 4 foot tank that's ok. I think you could push them higher. The color doesn't matter as the Kessil logic automatically handles that.

Here is BRS video about the Kessils - They were running at 100%, 8 inches off the glass - https://youtu.be/V7XLgLiA0PM?t=1036

I still think you just need to be patient.

[greg683x]

Thanks for all the help guys!

[Big E]

Originally Posted by Subsea

First, removing activated carbon is not a good way to raise nitrates. Activated carbon removes 80% of DOC compared to 30% removed by protein skimmers. If you want to raise nitrate only, then use a clean source like ammonia. Seachem Flourish nitrate is specific for aquariums.

I've seen you make these general quotes several times and it's simply not true.

Activated carbon & skimmers have different advantages and don't do the same thing.

I know the article(s) you're citing and you're using sweeping generalities.

It's been proven over and over again that people can have zero nutrients using just a skimmer...........especially if you are using a carbon source like vodka/vinegar or a commercial bacterial system.

In terms of usefulness for nutrient removal comparing activated carbon to skimmers is laughable.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Big E

I've seen you make these general quotes several times and it's simply not true.

Activated carbon & skimmers have different advantages and don't do the same thing.

I know the article(s) you're citing and you're using sweeping generalities.

It's been proven over and over again that people can have zero nutrients using just a skimmer...........especially if you are using a carbon source like vodka/vinegar or a commercial bacterial system.

In terms of usefulness for nutrient removal comparing activated carbon to skimmers is laughable.

Nutrients come in many forms. Nitrates and phosphates are easily removed by protein skimmers. Dissolved organic carbon is much more complex than nitrates and phosphates.

Keep on laughing if you wish. That does not change the science.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature
This is not the only scientific article to site what I generalized.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3/
This article qualifies what TOC is in our reef aquarium.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/aafeature1/
This scientific peer reviewed article documents the DOC removed by activated carbon and protein skimmers.

Enjoy the read.

[Big E]

Like I said you're generalizing using that single term & those are the articles I mentioned.

Reefers are interested in nutrient control not studies quantifying DOC, TOC,DOM, or POM.

Try keeping an Acropora dominated sps system with just using activated carbon versus one just using a skimmer.........get back to me when you're done doing that experiment.

I'm not going to carry on a long winded debate with you over this cause it's not worth it. I'm not trying to bash you just that people can get the wrong idea of what you're trying to convey.

I know your background and posts and respect your thought/opinions, I just think your going way overboard in trying to discount the capability of a skimmer.

It's sending a mixed and inaccurate message of what skimmers do for a reef system.

[Subsea]

Ed,
You are right about me not operating an SPS dominated system. Also, I have been skimmerless for 20 years and for what I do, see little need for them. Everybody has their methods. Timfish has many pictures on this website of SPS dominate tanks that have been skimmerless for 19 years.

Obviously, there is more than one way to skim a cat.

[Uncle Luke]

If I were you, I'd sell the Kesills and buy an ATI Sunpower with all ATI bulbs. I would bet you'll see some excellent results.