Advice !!

[lou.micevski]

Hi guys !
i know im going to get shot down here but ive read a fair few articles were everyone says i need a sump for my tank but my options are zero so can someone please help me or advice me how it can get done rather then tell me why it cant.
first some backround i have a 1200L (300+g) tank and i have run it as a tropical tank for the last 5 years and done extremely well bread discus and so on....Its time i took a plunge and want a reef tank a currently have 2 x fx5 canistter filter with two spares waiting in the wings incase of breakdown heater LED lighting RO unit heaters ...so i think i have all the basic needs can someone please advise how i will get this to work in creating a reef tank ???

[MondoBongo]

for a reef tank you're probably going to want to ditch the canister filters. people occasionally use them, but in my opinion they create a larger maintenance headache than they're worth. they tend to very effectively trap things through mechanical filtration, and can become a source of nitrates if not regularly cleaned. again, they can be used, but the typical advice is very frequent cleanings.

so what are the other options?

well, as you've noted, sumps are very much preferred in this hobby for a variety of reasons. do you absolutely need one? no. is it very beneficial to have on? yes.

i'm curious why you feel you have zero options? i'm sure you've already done a lot of investigation on the topic, but it might be worth exploring why you feel it's not an option for you before ruling it out entirely. you don't need to drill a tank to get a sump for example. i did quite well for several years with a HOB overflow that went down in to a Rubbermaid tub below my stand. i used the Rubbermaid because i started with no sump and added it later, so it wasn't an option to drain and remove the tank from the stand, and i needed to get something that was a.) large enough to be useful and b.) was able to be "convinced" in to the stand with some gentle bending.

as far as your other options, you're certainly able to do lots of equipment as HOB (Hang On Back). so if you're certain you're not going with a sump, i would look at some HOB protein skimmers instead of the canister filters. in a tank that large it might be difficult to find suitably sized skimmers, but you could probably run multiples if need be.

what kind of LED lights did you get? most freshwater LEDs are not suitable for saltwater reef applications. one of the unfortunate downsides to having a full blown reef is the lighting cost.

one thing i didn't see you mention was water movement. you're going to need some hefty powerheads to move enough water for a 300+g reef. water movement is essential to healthy corals and keeping the dissolved oxygen in the tank at an acceptable level for fish respiration.

finally, you might want to look in to getting an ATO (Auto Top Off) system and some kind of controller. the ATO helps keep salinity stable by dispensing fresh water when evaporation makes the water level drop in your tank. the controller will help keep an eye on your heaters and make sure they don't cook your tank. for controllers you can go basic with something like a Ranco that just monitors temp and switches outlets accordingly, or you can get fancy and go with something like an Apex or similar product. up to you, but those are two items i would not personally reef without.

whichever way you choose to go, best of luck!

[Defiant Arms]

im just spit balling but i hope cost of a sump isn't the deterrent here bc just filling that tank up with water is going to cost more than a decent DIY or used sump

[lou.micevski]

Thank you for your response.... the tank is built into a wall and is double sided it is setup in my study and has no room for a sump the the only room i have is where the FX5's reside now but ive been told that the foot print for a sump in that area for that size tank is rendered useless. i know you mention that to remove the cannister filter altogether is there no media that i can use in them to make them useful and beneficial.
my lighting i purchased is fully programmable marine lighting so i'm comfortable that will be fine for the begginer corals i intend to keep.

can you suggest a decent external skimmer for the size tank ??

[MondoBongo]

I'm not aware of any particular media that is effective for canister filters. It's not that they can't be used, it's mostly that they require much more maintenance than their benefit in comparison to other methods.

As far as hob skimmers for a tank that large, I'm not sure. But I usually stick to well known brands when purchasing skimmers. CoralVue (makes Reef Octopus), etc...

It will likely be challenging to find hob equipment rated anywhere near your tank capacity

[lou.micevski]

True im having difficulty getting HOB equipment for the size of my tank
the worst thing is when go LFS the moment i mention what im doing no one really wants to talk to me because they don't believe they can sell me anything but the first guy that invested time with me i dropped a few hundred dollars on substrate power heads very discouraging.

is it true that the only reason cannister filters are not recommended is beacause of nitrates ???

[CarrieB]

What about a basement or attic sump? Or run the pipes to an adjacent closet or room?


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[lou.micevski]

Originally Posted by CarrieB

What about a basement or attic sump? Or run the pipes to an adjacent closet or room?


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unfortunastely the design of my home doesnt allow me too its not an option for me

[CarrieB]

Maybe you should leave the tank as a tropical and put a 120 with a sump somewhere else. Next year, once you've experienced all the challenges and joys of a reef tank, you'll be better equipped to decide if taking on the challenge of converting a large tank with those kinds of constraints is worth it. Maybe you'll decide to remodel to make room and drill the tank.:-)


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[lou.micevski]

Originally Posted by CarrieB

Maybe you should leave the tank as a tropical and put a 120 with a sump somewhere else. Next year, once you've experienced all the challenges and joys of a reef tank, you'll be better equipped to decide if taking on the challenge of converting a large tank with those kinds of constraints is worth it. Maybe you'll decide to remodel to make room and drill the tank.:-)


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Have you tried it to say its not possible or are you just going on hear say ??

[Sk8r]

It would be easier to convert. And a GOOD canister filter (we had a Marineland spit water and damage the new floor, and have now gone with 2 four-pad Penguins for a 55 gallon tank) could mean fairly low maintenance. We have a salt water tank at one end, and the other is an led-lighted planted freshwater: for our amusement, we went for some of the glow-tetras, and they're a hoot. We keep varieties of catfish and a new breed of angel with sparkly scales. The salt water tank at the other side takes all our actual effort.

[CarrieB]

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I said it was a challenge based in the fact that you are constrained to limited space. I have no idea if it's possible for a beginner reefer to be successful under those conditions, because I haven't tried it nor have I read about anyone else doing it.

I do know that you could spend a lot of money and have a tank that was hard to maintain. I also know that some experience would help you understand the trade offs like having a sump or not and using a canister. In the end, all you are getting on here is opinions. My opinion is that if I were you, I'd put a tank somewhere else. My opinion is worth what you paid for it.


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[gone fishin]

Most things can go into your tank easy enough. The challenge will be to find a HOB skimmer of the size required. I have never used an external skimmer but that may be an option. Also, if your going to get into corals then at some point you may need to add some lines for dosing. you will need to add a line for fresh water top off unless you plan on manually topping off every day. It will not take long for the tank to look cluttered IMO.

[fishgate]

I have the Fluval FX5 (I don't use it - it was for my old freshwater) and it would be fine to use for saltwater - especially 2 - in your situation as long as you plan on changing and cleaning it weekly. In fact, with the water volume it holds, you could do your water changes and filter changes at the same time. It is an easy filter to prime and change, not true with a lot of canisters. I say you go for it! No sense in letting the lack of a huge sump stop you it isn't the end of the world not to have a large sump.

[Sk8r]

I will add---it can work. We had a 30 gallon marine tank with a lot of hair algae, and it ran well on a Penguin filter: catch is to stick largely to inverts and very skinny small mostly vegetarian fish.

[ColoReefer970]

Built into a room...double sided...sounds like there's only room for hanging things on one of the small sides...highly unlikely to get multiple skimmers hanging over there...and any external skimmer is going to run into problems with the return water I would think...just shoot it into the top??? Where are the lights? How high is this extra space on one small end?

It sounds like you're setting yourself up for failure with this one....sure, you could throw a pile of money at it and come up with something that will probably work...but it will be way more of a pain to maintain with a giant pile of workarounds...

So, to prevent the inevitable....yes...you can probably do it..but you'll have to work harder than everyone else and be more limited on inhabitants than everyone else

but...you could probably set up something better, and more optimal, with less effort in setup and maintenance...for the same cost..(and still have a nice fw tank)

I would stop trying to jam a square peg in a round hole...

There's a reason all of these opinions and advice are similar

(Yes I've watched multiple sumpless low skim reef tanks crash)

[ColoReefer970]

Maybe could pull off salt fish with live rock...I assumed corals when I read reef tank

[MondoBongo]

Perhaps we shouldn't be so hasty about the definition of reef. I could see a softie tank doing well with that setup, even some LPS.

[ColoReefer970]

I know I know...reef, not REEF?

[Grimreaperz]

I used a Fluval 404 on my 36g bow front when I started out....ended up siphoning 1/4 of my tank onto my floor. Due to a faulty seal (from salt) I would suggest against them. Otherwise take out all the media and just fill them with dry/live rock. And maybe some carbon. I have seen some people customize their Canisters to put a small submersible LED and turned them into a fuge. Nothing is needed in this hobby except. Weekly water changes. Good flow, good water perameters And good lights. Everything just makes our lives that much easier and more relaxed. I don't have a sump on my tank but am in the process of designing one. It's a challenge but it's fun! Specially if you are a DIYer. You don't need a sump but I would highly suggest a Skimmer or 2. I didn't believe they were that great until I got one. I got the Coralife 65 for my 36g and the crap it pulls out is amazing!

The only reason I want a sump is for a place to put my HOB skimmer and heaters. And get a bit of a fuge section for pod population

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[lou.micevski]

Guys i really appreciate the opinions and all are worthy of listening to i do understand the challenge but please correct me if i'm wrong ........is the only reason a canister wont work because of the Nitrate issue it may cause ???

[Timfish]

You can do a nice reef without any external equipment or internal filters. Get Vol III of Delbeek and Sprung's "The reef Aqurium". Read the section on Lee Chin Eng's natural system. Technically the system in the following video does not qualify as a Lee Chin Eng system because it's using power heads for circulation not air bubbles but it doesn't have any external equipment.

http://youtu.be/-eCQSVdqBQA

[heathlindner25]

All you need is live rock and circulation.

[texdoc77]

With a 300 gallon tank you certainly have a few options. My thought process is as follows. A sump is simply a place to add more biological filtration and the main source of mechanical filtration and chemical filtration. It is also a great place to hide probes and skimmers and such but definitely not mandatory. If you are OK with equipment in the tank consider the following:

1. You can definitely use a canister filter and add carbon, filter floss and things like marine pure into the canister. You will need to use a very large filter or more than one and clean it out on a regular basis; i.e. every two weeks. Canister filters are no more nitrate factories than an unwashed filter sock, keep it clean and you will keep your nutrients down. You can then add in tank protein skimmers. Hydor makes a good one called the slim skim but be prepared to use more than one (i.e. like 6). Some people swear they can keep a reef tank without a protein skimmer; but with your set up you definitely should consider it.

2. With a 300 gallon tank you could consider adding a braced baffle and using it as a sump with some flow in and out, of the tank.

3. Finally you could consider a floor sump that is a display sump, like with a trigger system. You would not need to hide it, but as mentioned before, you may not have the floor space. What I am talking about is out in the open.

Bottom line is you can definitely do it but you will have some definite trade-offs. Decide what you can live with. A freshwater display with cichlids can be just as rewarding to some...

Hope this helps.

[OrQidz]

Have you looked into DIY'ing a compartment at one end to make it into sort of an AIO (all in one) setup? You could stick a lot of the equipment in there and make for a tidier tank.

I believe the only downside to the canister filter is the nitrate. If you are meticulous about cleaning it, you should be ok.

Honestly, if you aren't going for a reef full of finicky SPS and doing lots of dosing and all that fancy stuff, yes you can set up your tank just fine. You will be more prone to nutrient issues and algae outbreaks, and you'll need to be really on top of your tank maintenance. Start with soft corals and take it slow with your stocking, and see how it goes.