Learn from me!!!

isajgh · 09/14/2016, 07:59 PM

I built a new sump a few weeks ago. Being a grad student, my dad offered to give me a couple extra tubes of silicone he had recently purchased for a bathroom remodel. I checked that it was 100% silicone but stupidly forgot to check if it was I or II. After letting the silicone cure for about two weeks I installed the new sump. The water flow was perfect, everything exactly how I hoped. Except within about an hour, the fish were swimming a little funny. Two hours and they were laying on the sandbed and all my corals were closed up and decaying. Luckily, I realized what was happening and plugged the drain in my kitchen sink, filled it with unused saltwater and just started throwing every fish and coral into the sink. I destroyed my hands trying to carefully carve every single polyp off the rocks. The next day I had to go out and get new sand, salt, sump everything. Pretty much started the system off from scratch. Thankfully all my fish are alive (for now) but I lost 85% of my corals, a pep shrim, rbta, and a starfish. Who knows what else I'll lose in the coming weeks since the system is essentially going through its initial cycle fully stocked. Moral of the story: DO NOT USE SILICONE II OR ANYTHING WITH MOLD OR MILDEW RESISTANT ADDITIVES!!

uncleof6 · 09/14/2016, 10:00 PM

Sorry for you loss. Unfortunately, there is nothing in fully cured GE Silicone II that would cause the reaction you experienced. The only difference between GE I and GE II is that GE II is a neutral cure silicone, and GE I is an acetoxy cure silicone. Looking over the MSDS of Silicone II, (which specifically lists what is in it by law; and there are no proprietary ingredients) there is no indication that it contains anything that could be considered a mold or mildew inhibitor. It is pretty much a standard neutral cure silicone blend, not at all unlike DC795. If neutral cure silicone was enough to nuke a tank, there would be a great many public aquariums with a lot of dead critters.

On top of that, too many have used Silicone II and it has not nuked their tanks.

I don't know what nuked your tank, could have been any number of things. It may well have been despite the cure time "stated," there was uncured silicone somewhere, and that will nuke the tank (so will GE Silicone I.)

dartier · 09/15/2016, 04:37 AM

The important statement here is "bathroom remodel". The silicon was white? The white kitchen and bath silicon has mold and mildew inhibitors in it and is very toxic to tanks.

Dennis

Donivan2009 · 09/15/2016, 05:41 AM

I'm sorry you experienced such a tragedy. Not to mention the panic you must of felt trying to get all the livestock out of the tank! I have heard way too many stories like this one, so I've become almost overly paranoid with my aquariums. I'm pretty much weary and cautious with ANYTHING that goes in my tank. I research and check all reviews for every new product I use. Like Dennis said, as soon as I saw the words "bathroom remodel" and "silicon" in the same sentence, I cringed. Anyways, the important thing is you learned and I'm glad you were able to save some of your livestock. Sorry about your loses!

joshbrookkate · 09/15/2016, 05:59 AM

Sorry for your loss.
Thanks for the reminder to the rest of us.....

isajgh · 09/15/2016, 06:42 AM

Uncleof6 I've read that but logically that can't be the case. GE I and II both say 100% silicone yet one is resistant to mold and mildew and the other is not. There has to be a difference in the products. Many may have used silicone II with no effect, and that's great for them, but I've read many more that had the same problems I did. The GE website specifies that II is "formulated" for mold and mildew protection up to 5 years. There's something in it, maybe protected by a company's right to keep their formula private. In any case, better safe than sorry. I and II cost the same and are equally available so probably better to err on the side of caution and stick to the trusted non-mold resistant silicones.

Thank you, dartier, donivan2009, and joshbrookkate. If this happening to me can be used to prevent anyone else from making the same mistake, I'll be so glad.

Wilrok_1 · 09/15/2016, 06:51 AM

"A wise man learns from a fools mistakes " , sorry got your tragedy .

CafeReef · 09/15/2016, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilrok_1

"A wise man learns from a fools mistakes " , sorry got your tragedy .

and ironically, a fool is a person who doesn't learn from their mistakes. I can promise you he is most likely not a fool as this is a hard mistake to learn from.

Sorry man, crappy loss, starting over is hard.

sde1500 · 09/15/2016, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilrok_1

"A wise man learns from a fools mistakes " , sorry got your tragedy .

While I get what you are saying, pretty crappy quote to use there bud.

OP sorry for your loss. Nice to hear that the fish are still alive at least!

uncleof6 · 09/15/2016, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isajgh

Uncleof6 I've read that but logically that can't be the case. GE I and II both say 100% silicone yet one is resistant to mold and mildew and the other is not. There has to be a difference in the products. Many may have used silicone II with no effect, and that's great for them, but I've read many more that had the same problems I did. The GE website specifies that II is "formulated" for mold and mildew protection up to 5 years. There's something in it, maybe protected by a company's right to keep their formula private. In any case, better safe than sorry. I and II cost the same and are equally available so probably better to err on the side of caution and stick to the trusted non-mold resistant silicones.

Thank you, dartier, donivan2009, and joshbrookkate. If this happening to me can be used to prevent anyone else from making the same mistake, I'll be so glad.

Logically, what the ad hype says is irrelevant, the difference between the two products is one is an acetoxy cure silicone, the other is a neutral cure silicone, that is where the "formulated" and difference ends. Interesting that this is not part of the ad hpye... but since it is a consumer targeted product, the common consumer would have no idea of what any of it means. As I mentioned and you acknowledged, "many have used this product with no effect," therefore logic says those that had problems did something wrong, or the problem was coincidental with the usage. Logic says it is easier to blame the silicone, than it is to believe that it was mistake by the user. This is how myths are born, and perpetuated.

The only things in it are silanes, siloxanes, petroleum distallates, fumed silica.

As silicone cures, the toxic chemicals evaporate away, leaving behind a vulcanized silicone rubber. Logic says, that once fully cured, silicone does not leach anything into the water. Otherwise, acetoxy cure silicone once fully cured, would also nuke a tank, because uncured acetoxy cure silicone is also toxic to marine life. Therefore logic says the only time any silicone blend is going to be toxic, is when it is not fully cured.

Poseidon · 09/15/2016, 10:48 AM

Reading the OP's message, and the speed in which there was an effect, it reads like a brass fitting used in the plumbing, or some other form of copper poisoning to me.

isajgh · 09/15/2016, 12:01 PM

Thanks wilrok_1, cafereef, and sde1500!! Hopefully all you wise people can learn from this fool's mistake.

Well uncleof6 the tank cured for longer than recommended. One silicone fights mold one doesn't. I can't tell you what "others who have had no ill effects" did differently than me. Maybe they have stronger filtration than my basic system and were able to mitigate the harmful effects. I can tell you for two weeks the sump sat in a temperature and humidity controlled environment with fans pointed on the sump to maintain constant air flow. Nothing changed in my system but the sump. I took out the one with a broken baffle and put the new one in. There was no addition of brass or copper as mentioned above. The same plumbing that was there before was switched to the new sump and the same stuff was removed after the crash and I'm running it now. The only difference was the new sump made up of strictly glass and silicone. If there's an alternate explanation, I'd love to know it so I don't make that mistake again. I'm not an idiot. I have a degree in molecular and microbiology. I understand the curing process of silicone but if one protects against mold for a period of 5 years, as II is guaranteed to do, there is an additional component that inhibits fungal development and does not evaporate away. Since so many others seem to have the same issue I did, but far fewer report a problem with the other type it would seem indicate a difference in the two. Even if, as you so condescendingly pointed out, it is just a myth, what is the harm? So people stay away from type II on the off chance that it might poison all their fish and corals and cause them to spend a fortune replacing everything. They buy type 1 and still get everything accomplished. Isn't that better than if I'm right and your false negatives have misled you. I'm not going after GE or you, just hoping that my mistake will keep some other poor fish/corals from suffering the same fate mine did.

Poseidon · 09/15/2016, 01:15 PM

Glad to read it wasn't a copper event. There was a similar story of immediate die off after a plumbing change that was brass related, that is why I brought it up.

I wish you the best, and hope what you have left recovers.

lmm1967 · 09/15/2016, 01:53 PM

I can vouch for UNCURED GE1 being NOT toxic to at least...
Clownfish
Firefish
hammers
serpent star
hermits
bristleworms
micro brittle stars

I've put silicon straight from the tube on fittings using my fingers under water to stop a leak.

I wouldn't recommend it - but I've done it at least twice with no noticeable ill affect.

OP - sorry for the loss and hassle.

jrhupp · 09/15/2016, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isajgh

Thanks wilrok_1, cafereef, and sde1500!! Hopefully all you wise people can learn from this fool's mistake.

Well uncleof6 the tank cured for longer than recommended. One silicone fights mold one doesn't. I can't tell you what "others who have had no ill effects" did differently than me. Maybe they have stronger filtration than my basic system and were able to mitigate the harmful effects. I can tell you for two weeks the sump sat in a temperature and humidity controlled environment with fans pointed on the sump to maintain constant air flow. Nothing changed in my system but the sump. I took out the one with a broken baffle and put the new one in. There was no addition of brass or copper as mentioned above. The same plumbing that was there before was switched to the new sump and the same stuff was removed after the crash and I'm running it now. The only difference was the new sump made up of strictly glass and silicone. If there's an alternate explanation, I'd love to know it so I don't make that mistake again. I'm not an idiot. I have a degree in molecular and microbiology. I understand the curing process of silicone but if one protects against mold for a period of 5 years, as II is guaranteed to do, there is an additional component that inhibits fungal development and does not evaporate away. Since so many others seem to have the same issue I did, but far fewer report a problem with the other type it would seem indicate a difference in the two. Even if, as you so condescendingly pointed out, it is just a myth, what is the harm? So people stay away from type II on the off chance that it might poison all their fish and corals and cause them to spend a fortune replacing everything. They buy type 1 and still get everything accomplished. Isn't that better than if I'm right and your false negatives have misled you. I'm not going after GE or you, just hoping that my mistake will keep some other poor fish/corals from suffering the same fate mine did.

Giving your education I would expect that included some training in the scientific method and as such, I would hope you would understand the difference between causation and correlation. What we see here is correlation but lack a mechanism to explain the cause. The situation is not constrained enough to definitively point to the "mold inhibitor" as the cause lacking knowledge of what it is or the mechanism by which it acts.

As to the mold inhibitor, my understanding is that as uncleof6 eluded to it is marketing hype, and relates to an inherent property of the silicone that it had well before it was every branded with the Bioseal logo. I no longer have the reference to where I saw this information; so feel free to treat this with some skepticism as it relies on my often flawed memory.

I am curious as to what color silicone was used? Surface preparation? How pumps and plumbing were treated during the swap? How sump equipment was treated? ... There are many variables here and it would be beneficial for the hobby as a whole in these kind of situations to post an unbiased description that is complete as possible with speculation held to later in the post as the cause (assuming that there is no hard evidence as to the cause and then it would be good to see the evidence).

I will add that you have my sympathies for your losses. Always sad to see these kind of things happen.

uncleof6 · 09/15/2016, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrhupp

Giving your education I would expect that included some training in the scientific method and as such, I would hope you would understand the difference between causation and correlation. What we see here is correlation but lack a mechanism to explain the cause. The situation is not constrained enough to definitively point to the "mold inhibitor" as the cause lacking knowledge of what it is or the mechanism by which it acts.

As to the mold inhibitor, my understanding is that as uncleof6 eluded to it is marketing hype, and relates to an inherent property of the silicone that it had well before it was every branded with the Bioseal logo. I no longer have the reference to where I saw this information; so feel free to treat this with some skepticism as it relies on my often flawed memory.

I am curious as to what color silicone was used? Surface preparation? How pumps and plumbing were treated during the swap? How sump equipment was treated? ... There are many variables here and it would be beneficial for the hobby as a whole in these kind of situations to post an unbiased description that is complete as possible with speculation held to later in the post as the cause (assuming that there is no hard evidence as to the cause and then it would be good to see the evidence).

I will add that you have my sympathies for your losses. Always sad to see these kind of things happen.

As well as a complete evaluation of the chemicals in a water sample from the nuking system as it is being nuked.

uncleof6 · 09/15/2016, 11:07 PM

DC795 is a neutral cure silicone made by Dow Corning. Although it is not "hyped" as being mildew resistant, part of the reason for its use is undoubtedly due to this property. As I said, this silicone is not nuking public aquariums, and it has never been a concern.

Neutral Cure silicones release Ammonia, and Menthanol, while curing. Both of these chemicals are very toxic to marine life. Once fully cured, 100% silicone rubber is just that: 100% silicone rubber. An inert product that does not leach anything. Acetoxy Cure silicones release Acetic Acid, during curing. Acetic Acid is less toxic; it is added to Calcium Hydroxide to increase the solubility of the Calcium, but anything at the right level can be toxic. One cured, it is an inert product.

PVC pipe is an inert product, yet some claim it leaches BPA and Phthalates into the water; or that aragonite, an inert natural product, breaks down and buffers pH at normal temperatures and pH found in an aquarium; or that silica sand leaches silicates into the water... there is no shortage of these things in this hobby.

This hobby, if it is about anything, is about science. Science is about knowledge, and knowledge is predicated on facts. So what do we really know here? What are the facts?

You used GE Silicone II. Your animals started dropping dead. These facts can't be argued with, and I am sorry that happened. We deal with living creatures, and I think most of us take that pretty seriously.

But that is not all that we know.

We know that many (including myself; I hate to admit that as I "preach" against using this product as well as GE Silicone I) have used this product, and the end result: there were no deaths.

We know that neurtal cure silicones leach Ammonia and Methanol, in lethal amounts, (to marine life) during curing.

We know that expired, near expired, or improperly stored silicone, can take far longer to cure than would be expected; and sometimes will not cure at all. A bad batch, can pretty much behave the same.

So what is really more likely here?

A mysterious "secret" ingredient, for which there is no substantiated evidence of its existance, nuked the tank? Is it a failure to cure properly, for a variety of reasons? Or is it a completely independent anomaly?

The "myth" here is: "Don't use GE Silicone II, it will nuke your tank." You did not start it. I appreciate your kneet jerk reaction to the event. This would rattle my cage, and most anyone elses. But you merely repeated what someone told you, that a lot of others told someone else; but there is still not a single piece of substantiated evidence to support it.

The truth here is that no one knows what caused your critters to die. It is very unlikely that anyone will ever know. But we cannot just arbitrarily blame fully cured GE Silicone II for killing your critters. There is an old maxim that states: When the legend is more popular (or more acceptable) than the truth, print the legend. The goal should be to share knowledge.

aaronwitt · 09/18/2016, 04:04 PM

Ouch, I was looking into this silicone but I guess I'll stay away from it just in case for my build!

uncleof6 · 09/19/2016, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaronwitt

Ouch, I was looking into this silicone but I guess I'll stay away from it just in case for my build!

Regardless of the somewhat mis-leading information, Silicone II isn't really a good product to use in aqauriums anyway. Neutral cure silicones adhere to metal and other surfaces, better than glass; and Acetoxy cure silicones adhere better to glass than any other type surface, and is corrosive to many metals.

Both I and II are bargain basement, bottom of the barrel, consumer grade sealants, not adhesives. There are much higher quality products out there, with similar costs, just can't get them at HD, or other big box stores. Dow Corning makes good medium grade silicones DC999A, and DC735 come to mind, and are a better choice when you need something to hold together.

For anything that can be considered "mission critical" structural integrity, you need to use the big boys: Momentive(GE) RTV108, or Momentive(GE) SCS1200.

The whole debate over this or that concerning Momentive(GE) I & II silicones, could easily be avoided, if folks would just read the label and/or product data sheets (not a product guide, or MSDS,) and realize there is a difference between saying "not for use underwater" and "not for use on aquariums."

Both I & II state on label and product data sheet, not for use on aquariums. They both also state, not for use underwater.

Not for use underwater: Means exactly what it says, in that silicone is not intended for continuous submersion in water. Have not run across a tube that does not say that either on the label, or in the product data sheet (not MSDS.)

Not for use on aquariums: Results of a class action lawsuit, for product GE012A, (Silicone I) as it was sold labeled as "Aquarium Silicone," and it lacked the physical properties for the application, and tanks came apart. That was a long time ago. Both I and II have the "same basic properties," other than cure type, so they are both so labeled.

I have a tube of silicone in my hand that does say not to use it underwater. Why, because silicone is not supposed to be used... There is no mention of aquariums, either on the label or the prodcut data sheet. Just so happens it is one of the top two "go to" silicones in the tank building profession: Momentive(GE) RTV108.

The other one is SCS1200. If the "not for use underwater" involved aquariums, I seriously doubt that they would allow literature concerning this product to state "successful aquarium applications have been achieved," to be published.

There are some legends surrounding this, as can be seen above. If folks were looking for the right stuff in the first place, the legends would not be near as widespread, and the honest mistake made by the OP would not have happened. But still, the silicone cannot be blamed, without empirical evidence. I support not using Silicone II, (also Silicone I,) but for the application, not due to the legend.

Since I had the PDs out, the cure times for both Silicone II and RTV108 are the same, identical, and based on a 1/8" bead. How much silicone is actually used in these tanks (small or large?.) Silicone cures from the outside in... If it cures for a month, it has not been too long. Uncured neutral cure silicone is what nukes tanks, acetoxy is more forgiving, but it can be toxic as well. In this thread's case, we will never know.

BigDave · 09/19/2016, 12:24 PM

Out of curiosity, what all did you do during the swapping of the sumps?

Did you use fresh saltwater to refill the new one?
What all do you have in your sump? Do you have a refugium?
Any place for noxious gasses to build up that could have been released when taking all the equipment out of the old one?
Did you have any pumps/air filters running in the display tank while you were swapping the sumps?

I keep leaning to something occurring during the sump swap causing the issues than the sump itself.

Sorry for your loss. Hope the rest of your critters continue to thrive.

09/14/2016, 07:59 PM	#1
isajgh Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Florida Posts: 23	Learn from me!!! I built a new sump a few weeks ago. Being a grad student, my dad offered to give me a couple extra tubes of silicone he had recently purchased for a bathroom remodel. I checked that it was 100% silicone but stupidly forgot to check if it was I or II. After letting the silicone cure for about two weeks I installed the new sump. The water flow was perfect, everything exactly how I hoped. Except within about an hour, the fish were swimming a little funny. Two hours and they were laying on the sandbed and all my corals were closed up and decaying. Luckily, I realized what was happening and plugged the drain in my kitchen sink, filled it with unused saltwater and just started throwing every fish and coral into the sink. I destroyed my hands trying to carefully carve every single polyp off the rocks. The next day I had to go out and get new sand, salt, sump everything. Pretty much started the system off from scratch. Thankfully all my fish are alive (for now) but I lost 85% of my corals, a pep shrim, rbta, and a starfish. Who knows what else I'll lose in the coming weeks since the system is essentially going through its initial cycle fully stocked. Moral of the story: DO NOT USE SILICONE II OR ANYTHING WITH MOLD OR MILDEW RESISTANT ADDITIVES!!

09/14/2016, 10:00 PM	#2
uncleof6 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AWOL Posts: 12,013	Sorry for you loss. Unfortunately, there is nothing in fully cured GE Silicone II that would cause the reaction you experienced. The only difference between GE I and GE II is that GE II is a neutral cure silicone, and GE I is an acetoxy cure silicone. Looking over the MSDS of Silicone II, (which specifically lists what is in it by law; and there are no proprietary ingredients) there is no indication that it contains anything that could be considered a mold or mildew inhibitor. It is pretty much a standard neutral cure silicone blend, not at all unlike DC795. If neutral cure silicone was enough to nuke a tank, there would be a great many public aquariums with a lot of dead critters. On top of that, too many have used Silicone II and it has not nuked their tanks. I don't know what nuked your tank, could have been any number of things. It may well have been despite the cure time "stated," there was uncured silicone somewhere, and that will nuke the tank (so will GE Silicone I.) __________________ "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef

09/15/2016, 04:37 AM	#3
dartier Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Brampton, ON, Canada Posts: 958	The important statement here is "bathroom remodel". The silicon was white? The white kitchen and bath silicon has mold and mildew inhibitors in it and is very toxic to tanks. Dennis __________________ 560G Miracles tank in process making a DIY DyMiCo style filter (for 560G) Current Tank Info: 560G Miracles tank in progress, 80Frag Temporary

09/15/2016, 10:48 AM	#11
Poseidon Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Swartz Creek Posts: 728	Reading the OP's message, and the speed in which there was an effect, it reads like a brass fitting used in the plumbing, or some other form of copper poisoning to me. __________________ Just say no to CRABS! Current Tank Info: 85 Gallon mixed Reef. Halide/LED combo lighting.

09/15/2016, 01:15 PM	#13
Poseidon Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Swartz Creek Posts: 728	Glad to read it wasn't a copper event. There was a similar story of immediate die off after a plumbing change that was brass related, that is why I brought it up. I wish you the best, and hope what you have left recovers. __________________ Just say no to CRABS! Current Tank Info: 85 Gallon mixed Reef. Halide/LED combo lighting.

09/15/2016, 05:41 AM	#4
Donivan2009 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: South Carolina Posts: 28	I'm sorry you experienced such a tragedy. Not to mention the panic you must of felt trying to get all the livestock out of the tank! I have heard way too many stories like this one, so I've become almost overly paranoid with my aquariums. I'm pretty much weary and cautious with ANYTHING that goes in my tank. I research and check all reviews for every new product I use. Like Dennis said, as soon as I saw the words "bathroom remodel" and "silicon" in the same sentence, I cringed. Anyways, the important thing is you learned and I'm glad you were able to save some of your livestock. Sorry about your loses!

09/15/2016, 05:59 AM	#5
joshbrookkate Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Windsor, ON Posts: 618	Sorry for your loss. Thanks for the reminder to the rest of us.....

09/15/2016, 06:42 AM	#6
isajgh Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Florida Posts: 23	Uncleof6 I've read that but logically that can't be the case. GE I and II both say 100% silicone yet one is resistant to mold and mildew and the other is not. There has to be a difference in the products. Many may have used silicone II with no effect, and that's great for them, but I've read many more that had the same problems I did. The GE website specifies that II is "formulated" for mold and mildew protection up to 5 years. There's something in it, maybe protected by a company's right to keep their formula private. In any case, better safe than sorry. I and II cost the same and are equally available so probably better to err on the side of caution and stick to the trusted non-mold resistant silicones. Thank you, dartier, donivan2009, and joshbrookkate. If this happening to me can be used to prevent anyone else from making the same mistake, I'll be so glad.

09/15/2016, 06:51 AM	#7
Wilrok_1 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 62	"A wise man learns from a fools mistakes " , sorry got your tragedy .

09/15/2016, 12:01 PM	#12
isajgh Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Florida Posts: 23	Thanks wilrok_1, cafereef, and sde1500!! Hopefully all you wise people can learn from this fool's mistake. Well uncleof6 the tank cured for longer than recommended. One silicone fights mold one doesn't. I can't tell you what "others who have had no ill effects" did differently than me. Maybe they have stronger filtration than my basic system and were able to mitigate the harmful effects. I can tell you for two weeks the sump sat in a temperature and humidity controlled environment with fans pointed on the sump to maintain constant air flow. Nothing changed in my system but the sump. I took out the one with a broken baffle and put the new one in. There was no addition of brass or copper as mentioned above. The same plumbing that was there before was switched to the new sump and the same stuff was removed after the crash and I'm running it now. The only difference was the new sump made up of strictly glass and silicone. If there's an alternate explanation, I'd love to know it so I don't make that mistake again. I'm not an idiot. I have a degree in molecular and microbiology. I understand the curing process of silicone but if one protects against mold for a period of 5 years, as II is guaranteed to do, there is an additional component that inhibits fungal development and does not evaporate away. Since so many others seem to have the same issue I did, but far fewer report a problem with the other type it would seem indicate a difference in the two. Even if, as you so condescendingly pointed out, it is just a myth, what is the harm? So people stay away from type II on the off chance that it might poison all their fish and corals and cause them to spend a fortune replacing everything. They buy type 1 and still get everything accomplished. Isn't that better than if I'm right and your false negatives have misled you. I'm not going after GE or you, just hoping that my mistake will keep some other poor fish/corals from suffering the same fate mine did.

09/15/2016, 01:53 PM	#14
lmm1967 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 153	I can vouch for UNCURED GE1 being NOT toxic to at least... Clownfish Firefish hammers serpent star hermits bristleworms micro brittle stars I've put silicon straight from the tube on fittings using my fingers under water to stop a leak. I wouldn't recommend it - but I've done it at least twice with no noticeable ill affect. OP - sorry for the loss and hassle.

09/15/2016, 11:07 PM	#17
uncleof6 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AWOL Posts: 12,013	DC795 is a neutral cure silicone made by Dow Corning. Although it is not "hyped" as being mildew resistant, part of the reason for its use is undoubtedly due to this property. As I said, this silicone is not nuking public aquariums, and it has never been a concern. Neutral Cure silicones release Ammonia, and Menthanol, while curing. Both of these chemicals are very toxic to marine life. Once fully cured, 100% silicone rubber is just that: 100% silicone rubber. An inert product that does not leach anything. Acetoxy Cure silicones release Acetic Acid, during curing. Acetic Acid is less toxic; it is added to Calcium Hydroxide to increase the solubility of the Calcium, but anything at the right level can be toxic. One cured, it is an inert product. PVC pipe is an inert product, yet some claim it leaches BPA and Phthalates into the water; or that aragonite, an inert natural product, breaks down and buffers pH at normal temperatures and pH found in an aquarium; or that silica sand leaches silicates into the water... there is no shortage of these things in this hobby. This hobby, if it is about anything, is about science. Science is about knowledge, and knowledge is predicated on facts. So what do we really know here? What are the facts? You used GE Silicone II. Your animals started dropping dead. These facts can't be argued with, and I am sorry that happened. We deal with living creatures, and I think most of us take that pretty seriously. But that is not all that we know. We know that many (including myself; I hate to admit that as I "preach" against using this product as well as GE Silicone I) have used this product, and the end result: there were no deaths. We know that neurtal cure silicones leach Ammonia and Methanol, in lethal amounts, (to marine life) during curing. We know that expired, near expired, or improperly stored silicone, can take far longer to cure than would be expected; and sometimes will not cure at all. A bad batch, can pretty much behave the same. So what is really more likely here? A mysterious "secret" ingredient, for which there is no substantiated evidence of its existance, nuked the tank? Is it a failure to cure properly, for a variety of reasons? Or is it a completely independent anomaly? The "myth" here is: "Don't use GE Silicone II, it will nuke your tank." You did not start it. I appreciate your kneet jerk reaction to the event. This would rattle my cage, and most anyone elses. But you merely repeated what someone told you, that a lot of others told someone else; but there is still not a single piece of substantiated evidence to support it. The truth here is that no one knows what caused your critters to die. It is very unlikely that anyone will ever know. But we cannot just arbitrarily blame fully cured GE Silicone II for killing your critters. There is an old maxim that states: When the legend is more popular (or more acceptable) than the truth, print the legend. The goal should be to share knowledge. __________________ "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef

09/18/2016, 04:04 PM	#18
aaronwitt Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 62	Ouch, I was looking into this silicone but I guess I'll stay away from it just in case for my build!

09/19/2016, 12:24 PM	#20
BigDave Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Wylie, TX Posts: 473	Out of curiosity, what all did you do during the swapping of the sumps? Did you use fresh saltwater to refill the new one? What all do you have in your sump? Do you have a refugium? Any place for noxious gasses to build up that could have been released when taking all the equipment out of the old one? Did you have any pumps/air filters running in the display tank while you were swapping the sumps? I keep leaning to something occurring during the sump swap causing the issues than the sump itself. Sorry for your loss. Hope the rest of your critters continue to thrive.