Acclimation Question

Cancun · 12/01/2016, 12:41 AM

Hi! Okay I need a straightforward answer to this question. Here goes: Can you drip a fish from 1.017 salinity to 1.025 salinity over a two hr period 4-5 drips per second or broken stream....after one hr empty half the water....drip for 1 more hr check salinity of is at 1.025 add fish to tank....my question is ONLY if you purchase from a LFS. P I am not asking about lowering salinity in a QT tank to match the LFS etc.. I am just asking if raising the salinity 7 or 8 pts in two hours would kill the fish in a matter of days.....

Is this acclimation bringing the salinity up to fast in to short of a time frame....anytime I have tried this the fish died within 4-7 days. A LFS I go to swears by that method. I now only buy fish out of tanks with salinity at 1.025.

Please help settle this for me....what do all you tank experts out there think? Thanks in advance. .......

fishkeeprian · 12/01/2016, 04:39 AM

I wouldn't drip for that long. Me personally I match the SG of my QT to the SG water the fish is in and gradually bring up to my DT SG throughout the QT period.

There is a good sticky from Sk8r in the "New to Hobby" forum called death in bags.

A sea K · 12/01/2016, 05:13 AM

I would think a two hour acclimation would be sufficient going from 1.017 to 1.025, a little longer might be better though IMO as that is a considerable swing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishkeeprian

I wouldn't drip for that long. Me personally I match the SG of my QT to the SG water the fish is in and gradually bring up to my DT SG throughout the QT period.

There is a good sticky from Sk8r in the "New to Hobby" forum called death in bags.

The death in bags is more from prolonged shipping, not a real issue in a 10 min ride from the LFS. My LFS is an hour out and still not a concern.

kevin21 · 12/01/2016, 06:52 AM

If you are not going to use a Qt tank, I do not recommend the drip method. As I have tested and read multiple times, the drip method can accumulate ammonia in the water, which is obviously no go for the fish. I suggest floating the bag for 10 minutes, adding the contents to a specimen container which can hang right on the tank, and then using a cup or turkey baster to add water every 10 minutes. This will bring the SG up at a safe rate for the fish, while keeping ammonia levels down. When I did not have a QT tank, I never lost a fish using this method. I did, however, have multiple issues with the long drip method.

Fish Keeper82 · 12/01/2016, 07:21 AM

I agree with kevin21 . If memory serves me right the ammonia in the bag with the fish is not that bad for him because the bag water is lower ph. As soon as the ph rises from the addition of drip water the ammonia becomes more toxic. The reef cleaners snail acclimation instructions say this in detail.

I also just match salinity in QT and float bag for 15 mins. I've had zero issues for years this way.

ZenGuitarGuy · 12/01/2016, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin21

If you are not going to use a Qt tank, I do not recommend the drip method. As I have tested and read multiple times, the drip method can accumulate ammonia in the water, which is obviously no go for the fish. I suggest floating the bag for 10 minutes, adding the contents to a specimen container which can hang right on the tank, and then using a cup or turkey baster to add water every 10 minutes. This will bring the SG up at a safe rate for the fish, while keeping ammonia levels down. When I did not have a QT tank, I never lost a fish using this method. I did, however, have multiple issues with the long drip method.

What about if you ARE going to QT, does that change the method?

ColoReefer970 · 12/01/2016, 08:42 AM

On the original question:

Yes, 2 hours for that big a shift is probably not doing it any favors.

LJC6780 · 12/01/2016, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin21

If you are not going to use a Qt tank, I do not recommend the drip method. As I have tested and read multiple times, the drip method can accumulate ammonia in the water, which is obviously no go for the fish. I suggest floating the bag for 10 minutes, adding the contents to a specimen container which can hang right on the tank, and then using a cup or turkey baster to add water every 10 minutes. This will bring the SG up at a safe rate for the fish, while keeping ammonia levels down. When I did not have a QT tank, I never lost a fish using this method. I did, however, have multiple issues with the long drip method.

Please help me but how does this differ really? Just the container? And instead of a constant drip of new water you are adding it all in one squirt?

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kevin21 · 12/01/2016, 09:19 AM

If you are using a QT, have the QT set to the salinity in the bag. In this case, no acclimation other than temperature is needed. Float the bag in the QT, and release the fish into the QT. Make sure the QT has hiding spots for the fish, as this will lower stress levels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenGuitarGuy

What about if you ARE going to QT, does that change the method?

kevin21 · 12/01/2016, 09:22 AM

Yes, the specimen contained literally hangs on the tank. I normally like to float the bag for 10 minutes, then I dump the contents into the container. I then add one squirt of water from my turkey baster every 10 minutes until my salinity matches the display. It is faster than the drip method, which helps keep ammonia levels low. The process can be over in 30-45 minutes instead of the 120 minutes some drip acclimation can take.

Please remember, this is just what has worked for me for years. Never lost a fish due to poor acclimation, so I decided to share this technique. Not that I am the only one to use this technique, as I am pretty sure it is the most popular behind the best one, which is to QT all fish.

Hope this clears some stuff up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJC6780

Please help me but how does this differ really? Just the container? And instead of a constant drip of new water you are adding it all in one squirt?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ZenGuitarGuy · 12/01/2016, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin21

If you are using a QT, have the QT set to the salinity in the bag. In this case, no acclimation other than temperature is needed. Float the bag in the QT, and release the fish into the QT. Make sure the QT has hiding spots for the fish, as this will lower stress levels.

Ok thanks. So then you would gradually adjust the salinity of the QT to match the DT? Slowly I assume.

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Fish Keeper82 · 12/01/2016, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenGuitarGuy

Ok thanks. So then you would gradually adjust the salinity of the QT to match the DT? Slowly I assume.

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kevin21 · 12/01/2016, 09:40 AM

Yup, that is it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenGuitarGuy

Ok thanks. So then you would gradually adjust the salinity of the QT to match the DT? Slowly I assume.

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BlackTip · 12/01/2016, 09:45 AM

When I move my fishes from QT to DT, I drip acclimate for about 1-1.5 hours. The QT is about 1.018 and the DT is 1.026.

ca1ore · 12/01/2016, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin21

If you are not going to use a Qt tank, I do not recommend the drip method. As I have tested and read multiple times, the drip method can accumulate ammonia in the water, which is obviously no go for the fish. I suggest floating the bag for 10 minutes, adding the contents to a specimen container which can hang right on the tank, and then using a cup or turkey baster to add water every 10 minutes. This will bring the SG up at a safe rate for the fish, while keeping ammonia levels down. When I did not have a QT tank, I never lost a fish using this method. I did, however, have multiple issues with the long drip method.

Ammonia build-up in shipping water only applies when the animal has been in the bag for a while (say 12-24 hrs). For locally bought fish, ammonia buildup is not an issue. Regardless, I'm unclear why the above suggestion mitigates ammonia buildup? Since you are still using the shipping water, and it's exposed to the air (thus converting any ammonium to ammonia) I fail to see why it's any better. If you must adjust for salinity, have some ammonia neutralizer on hand.

Best approach, without exception, is to use a quarantine tank and adjust it to the salinity of the incoming water.

hkgar · 12/01/2016, 10:42 AM

I am planning on getting some fish from LA. Three of the fish will be coming fro Divers Den and two from LA. One ships the fish wit a sg of 1.017 and the other at 1.025. I am not sure wwhich is which.

I know that you should raise the low sg slowly, over a couple days so I am going to set up my first TTM tank at 1.017. Can the fish that come at 1.025 be but into the 1.017 without any problems?

Cancun · 12/01/2016, 12:00 PM

Thanks for all the helpful answers....yea as far as I know fish can go from high to low salinity without any issues...its just going from low to high that can cause problems if done to quickly.

I never buy fish online because I am very lucky to live close to several excellent LFS....but the reason for my question is when I buy a fish from a tank that is at 1.025 which matches my tank...I personally drip for 45 min to a hr in a specimen container and add the fish. But when I had bought a fish at 1.017 salinity...even if I dripped two plus hrs...the fish ate...looked great...the first few days and then died in less than a week.

hkgar · 12/01/2016, 12:23 PM

From what I have seen it is best not to raise SG more than about .02 per day. So to get to 1.025 from 1.017 could take 4 days. If you haven't seen it this thread mis helpful

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1959576

ca1ore · 12/01/2016, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkgar

I am planning on getting some fish from LA. Three of the fish will be coming fro Divers Den and two from LA. One ships the fish wit a sg of 1.017 and the other at 1.025. I am not sure wwhich is which.

I know that you should raise the low sg slowly, over a couple days so I am going to set up my first TTM tank at 1.017. Can the fish that come at 1.025 be but into the 1.017 without any problems?

Diver's Den is spot on at 1.025; LA is nominally 1.018, though it can be a bit lower. I have two QT tanks, so set one to 1.025 and the other set to 1.018, then add a bit of FW if it needs to be a bit lower. I generally don't put DD and LA fish together.

LJC6780 · 12/01/2016, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin21

Yes, the specimen contained literally hangs on the tank. I normally like to float the bag for 10 minutes, then I dump the contents into the container. I then add one squirt of water from my turkey baster every 10 minutes until my salinity matches the display. It is faster than the drip method, which helps keep ammonia levels low. The process can be over in 30-45 minutes instead of the 120 minutes some drip acclimation can take.

Please remember, this is just what has worked for me for years. Never lost a fish due to poor acclimation, so I decided to share this technique. Not that I am the only one to use this technique, as I am pretty sure it is the most popular behind the best one, which is to QT all fish.

Hope this clears some stuff up.

I think it was the time for each that I was not translating ... thanks for the explanation.

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LJC6780 · 12/01/2016, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Ammonia build-up in shipping water only applies when the animal has been in the bag for a while (say 12-24 hrs). For locally bought fish, ammonia buildup is not an issue. Regardless, I'm unclear why the above suggestion mitigates ammonia buildup? Since you are still using the shipping water, and it's exposed to the air (thus converting any ammonium to ammonia) I fail to see why it's any better. If you must adjust for salinity, have some ammonia neutralizer on hand.

Best approach, without exception, is to use a quarantine tank and adjust it to the salinity of the incoming water.

This was sort of my thoughts too. I don't see the use of Prime mentioned much in SW, where it's pretty much a staple in FW. I was also wondering how ammonia could build up so fast between 30 minutes to 120 minutes..

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Mad_Reefer · 12/02/2016, 12:14 AM

Most I've done is 1.021 to 1.025, and that only took 20-30 minutes after temperature acclamation. I was a little worried, but all is fine.

ca1ore · 12/02/2016, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJC6780

This was sort of my thoughts too. I don't see the use of Prime mentioned much in SW, where it's pretty much a staple in FW. I was also wondering how ammonia could build up so fast between 30 minutes to 120 minutes..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not that it's 'building up', rather it's already built up during the shipping. PH in a closed bag tends to be low, so the ammonia exists as less toxic ammonium. As soon as the bag is opened and exposed to the air, the ph quickly rises and the ammonium converts to toxic ammonia. It's only a problem when the fish has been in the bag for a while and has been breathing and excreting.

My earlier point was that the container you put the fish and shipping water into us irrelevant, same water = same problem.

Funny, I never used prime during my FW days. Ph is lower thus ammonia much less of a problem.

A sea K · 12/02/2016, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca1ore

It's not that it's 'building up', rather it's already built up during the shipping. PH in a closed bag tends to be low, so the ammonia exists as less toxic ammonium. As soon as the bag is opened and exposed to the air, the ph quickly rises and the ammonium converts to toxic ammonia. It's only a problem when the fish has been in the bag for a while and has been breathing and excreting.

ca1ore is exactly right which is why I made the statement about the death in the bag issue.
This is part of the question from the OP "my question is ONLY if you purchase from a LFS." which is why I made the statement in my first post, way too much info in this thread which does not pertain to the OP's question.

Cancun · 12/03/2016, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkgar

From what I have seen it is best not to raise SG more than about .02 per day. So to get to 1.025 from 1.017 could take 4 days. If you haven't seen it this thread mis helpful

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1959576

Thanks for that link....very good info!

12/01/2016, 12:41 AM	#1
Cancun Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Saint Louis Missouri Posts: 527	Acclimation Question Hi! Okay I need a straightforward answer to this question. Here goes: Can you drip a fish from 1.017 salinity to 1.025 salinity over a two hr period 4-5 drips per second or broken stream....after one hr empty half the water....drip for 1 more hr check salinity of is at 1.025 add fish to tank....my question is ONLY if you purchase from a LFS. P I am not asking about lowering salinity in a QT tank to match the LFS etc.. I am just asking if raising the salinity 7 or 8 pts in two hours would kill the fish in a matter of days..... Is this acclimation bringing the salinity up to fast in to short of a time frame....anytime I have tried this the fish died within 4-7 days. A LFS I go to swears by that method. I now only buy fish out of tanks with salinity at 1.025. Please help settle this for me....what do all you tank experts out there think? Thanks in advance. ....... __________________ Red Sea Reefer 750 XXL...I love wrasses....have leopards....several Coris....China Wrasse, Dejardini and purple tang... Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 750 XXL

12/01/2016, 06:52 AM	#4
kevin21 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 2,208	If you are not going to use a Qt tank, I do not recommend the drip method. As I have tested and read multiple times, the drip method can accumulate ammonia in the water, which is obviously no go for the fish. I suggest floating the bag for 10 minutes, adding the contents to a specimen container which can hang right on the tank, and then using a cup or turkey baster to add water every 10 minutes. This will bring the SG up at a safe rate for the fish, while keeping ammonia levels down. When I did not have a QT tank, I never lost a fish using this method. I did, however, have multiple issues with the long drip method. __________________ Kevin Current Tank Info: Waterbox 50g, Tunze 9004 dc skimmer, Vortech mp10, Kessil ap700

12/01/2016, 09:45 AM	#14
BlackTip Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 1,598	When I move my fishes from QT to DT, I drip acclimate for about 1-1.5 hours. The QT is about 1.018 and the DT is 1.026. __________________ 325G DT. 100G sump. In-sump refugium. SRO-5000SSS. 2 Gyres 150. 2 Water Blaster HY-5000. 2 Razor 320W. Apex Gold. MR2 GFO. 2 800W Heaters. Tunze Osmolater. 2 20g-long QT tanks. Geo 624 CA. 80W UV

12/01/2016, 10:42 AM	#16
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	Taking fish from high sg to lower sg I am planning on getting some fish from LA. Three of the fish will be coming fro Divers Den and two from LA. One ships the fish wit a sg of 1.017 and the other at 1.025. I am not sure wwhich is which. I know that you should raise the low sg slowly, over a couple days so I am going to set up my first TTM tank at 1.017. Can the fish that come at 1.025 be but into the 1.017 without any problems? __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

12/01/2016, 12:00 PM	#17
Cancun Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Saint Louis Missouri Posts: 527	Thanks for all the helpful answers....yea as far as I know fish can go from high to low salinity without any issues...its just going from low to high that can cause problems if done to quickly. I never buy fish online because I am very lucky to live close to several excellent LFS....but the reason for my question is when I buy a fish from a tank that is at 1.025 which matches my tank...I personally drip for 45 min to a hr in a specimen container and add the fish. But when I had bought a fish at 1.017 salinity...even if I dripped two plus hrs...the fish ate...looked great...the first few days and then died in less than a week. __________________ Red Sea Reefer 750 XXL...I love wrasses....have leopards....several Coris....China Wrasse, Dejardini and purple tang... Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 750 XXL

12/01/2016, 04:39 AM	#2
fishkeeprian Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: England, Earl Shilton Posts: 1,452	I wouldn't drip for that long. Me personally I match the SG of my QT to the SG water the fish is in and gradually bring up to my DT SG throughout the QT period. There is a good sticky from Sk8r in the "New to Hobby" forum called death in bags.

12/01/2016, 07:21 AM	#5
Fish Keeper82 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 691	I agree with kevin21 . If memory serves me right the ammonia in the bag with the fish is not that bad for him because the bag water is lower ph. As soon as the ph rises from the addition of drip water the ammonia becomes more toxic. The reef cleaners snail acclimation instructions say this in detail. I also just match salinity in QT and float bag for 15 mins. I've had zero issues for years this way.

12/01/2016, 08:42 AM	#7
ColoReefer970 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Earth Posts: 88	On the original question: Yes, 2 hours for that big a shift is probably not doing it any favors.

12/01/2016, 12:23 PM	#18
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	From what I have seen it is best not to raise SG more than about .02 per day. So to get to 1.025 from 1.017 could take 4 days. If you haven't seen it this thread mis helpful http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1959576 __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

12/02/2016, 12:14 AM	#22
Mad_Reefer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 249	Most I've done is 1.021 to 1.025, and that only took 20-30 minutes after temperature acclamation. I was a little worried, but all is fine.