Help with mystery killer in QT?

[pacificdiver]

I have a bizarre illness that started in my DT, and has followed me into the QT as well. I'm wondering if it could be ich that is only located in the gills?

I finished doing TTM about 3 weeks ago after a very minor ich presentation on a Royal Gramma (just a few spots on pectorals). As far as I know, TTM went off without a hitch, and I haven't seen a spot on anyone in many weeks. Despite that fact, I lost a yellow coris wrasse on day 6 of TTM, which was odd because he had no signs of disease, and simply dropped dead one morning while everyone else in the QT was fine. I had lost 2 chromis in the DT in the same manner, no signs visible of disease, just found the crabs devouring them the next morning. I did two courses of Prazipro during TTM, and finished with a 5 day course of API Super Ich Cure - all seemed fine.

Now, after finishing TTM and having 3 weeks of no problems with anyone except the Royal Gramma who was a bit nervous for a while, I have yet another Chromis who is looking like he's heading for an early grave (https://youtu.be/gXw4ca2lTBE). He's stopped eating and barely swims at all, very rapid gill movement, and sometimes hangs vertically in the water column. This has gone on for the last 48 hours. The other chromis in the QT is completely fine, normal gill movement and strong feeding.

To add insult to injury, my pair of clowns have lost most of their will to eat, and up until 12 hours ago they showed a very strong feeding response.

My question is, what could have survived TTM, two courses of Prazipro, and a 5 day course of Super Ich Cure (malachite green)? Could it still be ich? It doesn't seem like it could be velvet, since it's been such a drawn-out, slow loss of fish over many weeks. So, does anyone have any idea what I could be dealing with here?

I have 2 clowns and 2 chromis in a 10 gallon QT that gets a 50% water change every 4 days. I also dose with Amquel at every feeding to keep toxicity down. Any advice from an able-bodied fish doc would be greatly appreciated.

[CrayolaViolence]

Ich and marine velvet specifically attack the gills (that's how it kills the fish). Many fish that die of both diseases never show outward symptoms and only have the parasites in the gills. When checking for both diseases, gill samples are apart of the process.
Ich and both marine velvet have reportedly shown resistant to some treatments like copper, formaldin, etc.
Remember: parasitic diseases do not benefit by killing the host. They are designed to infect, use them as apart of the reproductive cycle, then move on. Killing their means of survival is counter productive. The reason why we have (at least from what I have read) so many deaths in our aquarium from diseases that are a natural part of the ocean's water column, is because it is essentially a closed system, with very few predators of the parasite, and recycled water flow rather than millions of gallons of circulating water. Therefor the fish are contained in a concentrated population of parasites. Fish can and will carry both parasites for months and show now outward symptoms. When fish carry the parasite under their skin, no treatment will kill it. This is why taking actual skin and gill samples is the only way to clear a fish of harboring the parasite. Even then, it can be missed if there are very few of them.
Another article I read suggested that with "sudden" deaths of healthy fish, as in swimming one minute dead the next, that the parasites actually break off and cause a stroke or embolism. I know I have seen fish swimming then go into a seizure like behavior. Sometimes they come out some times they just quit breathing. I've also observed fish acting normal then shoot to the top of the water then stiffen and die within seconds of doing something as regular as feeding. It's only anecdotal, but I think it supports what has been reported in more scientific papers.


From what I understand, you should not use Amquel when utilizing any kind of medication because it raises the toxicity.

[pacificdiver]

Thanks for the input. So, does it sound like I'm possibly dealing with a resistant form of Ich? So far, it's the only definite infection I've been able to confirm in the system.

At this point, would I be better off doing copper or hyposalinity in QT? Also, I don't know why I wrote Amquel, I"m using Prime concentrate - not sure if that's any different in terms of toxicity.

[CrayolaViolence]

Ich or velvet. It's impossible to know without doing a biopsy. I would do cloroquine phosphate and hypo salinity. From what I have read, velvet is resistant to copper, and some subspecies can withstand very low salinity. Hypo can alleviate the symptoms but there is a strong possibility it will not even do that.

From what I have read, any kind of water conditioner, prime, etc, should never be used in conjunction with a treatment as it raises toxicity.

[Sk8r]

Medications often lower the oxygen carrying capacity of the water. I don't KNOW that these do it, but aeration is often a problem in any treatment and has to be kept high.

[Khazmodain]

Originally Posted by CrayolaViolence

From what I have read, any kind of water conditioner, prime, etc, should never be used in conjunction with a treatment as it raises toxicity.

I have always thought this was specific to copper and water conditioners (perhaps Cupramine more specifically). I've used AmQuel with both chloroquine phosphate and PraziPro previously without issue.

[pacificdiver]

Originally Posted by CrayolaViolence

Ich or velvet. It's impossible to know without doing a biopsy. I would do cloroquine phosphate and hypo salinity. From what I have read, velvet is resistant to copper, and some subspecies can withstand very low salinity. Hypo can alleviate the symptoms but there is a strong possibility it will not even do that.

From what I have read, any kind of water conditioner, prime, etc, should never be used in conjunction with a treatment as it raises toxicity.

Is it fair to bias my "diagnosis" toward ich, since the first sign of disease was obvious white spots, and the losses have been very spread out? Everything I've heard about velvet indicates it wipes out everyone very quickly. My losses have been spread out, one by one, over many weeks.

Can velvet act slowly in some cases?

[CrayolaViolence]

I've seen marine velvet take weeks to kill. It seems to move much slower in a low population density.

[CrayolaViolence]

Originally Posted by Khazmodain

I have always thought this was specific to copper and water conditioners (perhaps Cupramine more specifically). I've used AmQuel with both chloroquine phosphate and PraziPro previously without issue.

As I said, I thought you were not supposed to. But I have never used either water conditioner so I wasn't sure. I'd suggest the OP research it further to double check.

[pacificdiver]

Originally Posted by CrayolaViolence

I've seen marine velvet take weeks to kill. It seems to move much slower in a low population density.

I wasn't aware of the possibility for slow losses. Velvet would explain why a carefully-done TTM did not seem to work. I've ordered chloroquine phosphate powder, as that seems to be held out as an effective treatment. I'm going to avoid copper for now, since it seems like people say velvet can be tolerant to it.

Thanks to all for the feedback.

[scooter31707]

I agree, I put my money on velvet.

[pacificdiver]

Originally Posted by scooter31707

I agree, I put my money on velvet.

Now that I'm pretty confident that I have a nice case of velvet, is there any hope of a complete cure? I have chloroquine phosphate arriving Saturday, which seems to be the most effective option (at least from what I"ve read), but should it be a complete cure?

I do not want to have velvet of any sort anywhere near my DT. I'm actually considering throwing out my wife's velvet pillows. So should I plan on setting up a permanent nano tank to hold the 4 fish I have left, or can I eventually reintroduce them to my DT, once they've been in QT for 6 weeks or so?

[Khazmodain]

Originally Posted by pacificdiver

Now that I'm pretty confident that I have a nice case of velvet, is there any hope of a complete cure? I have chloroquine phosphate arriving Saturday, which seems to be the most effective option (at least from what I"ve read), but should it be a complete cure?

I do not want to have velvet of any sort anywhere near my DT. I'm actually considering throwing out my wife's velvet pillows. So should I plan on setting up a permanent nano tank to hold the 4 fish I have left, or can I eventually reintroduce them to my DT, once they've been in QT for 6 weeks or so?

Lol, at least you can have a sense of humor while dealing with this. CP in a QT tank while letting your DT go fishless for 6 weeks (maybe it's 8.. can't remember for sure) will completely cure velvet.