New and frustrated

[CaptD103]

Hi everyone, I am new to the hobby. I set a reef tank up about 3 months ago. I have a 65 gal tank and 20 gal sump. Rio 2500 return pump, hydor 1350 gpm powerhead in display tank, about 80 lbs of live rock, 15 lbs of which was added as base rock about 3 weeks ago. EShoppes skimmer in the sump. Currently have 2 azure damsels that I started the tank with. An approx. 10" snowflake eel, and a Mocha clown. I have a few easy corals. All of these are doing very well, and seem to be thriving. Every time I take a water sample to my LFS, they say my water is near perfect. Specific gravity 1.025, temp 79.5.

My problem is that while all of these things are thriving, I am unable to add anything else to the tank. I tried a Banggai Cardinal 2 months ago and it died in less than 12 hours. When I returned to the LFS, there were a couple dead in their tank. I had a 2nd Mocha Clown that after a few weeks, the rest of the fish turned on and started torturing. I was able to get it out of the tank and return it to the LFS before it was too late and it is doing fine there. About a month ago I tried adding a blue dot Toby. The 2nd day it ate an entire colony of Mega Man paly which I was told is toxic. It was dead the next day. Now over the weekend I tried to add a Lavender Tang, which the LFS told me would be OK in my 65 gal tank (even though I read most tangs need larger tanks). It seemed very stressed, was swimming non-stop laps around the tank, and developed ich the 2nd day. I removed it to my LFS where they tried fresh water dips but it it died the next day. At the same time as the tang, I tried adding a small red fromia star, but that died last night. It seemed like it was doing well then 2 days ago climbed to the top of my tank and stuck half its body out of the water. I knocked it back down as soon as I saw it but the damage was done.

Very frustrated. The tank seems almost empty with the 4 small fish in it. The eel seems very docile and hardly ever comes out of its cave except to eat and the occasional roam of the tank. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Malign Reefer]

What are your water parameters? I would not trust anyone to test my water for me, buy a test kit.

[CaptD103]

I don't have a test kit. I take water to the LFS. They usually just tell me my parameters are excellent. Last time I got real numbers, I was told trace amount of nitrate, nitrite 0, ammonia 0, salinity 1.025. I keep the temp between 79 and 80.

[MG98]

1. Slow down
2. You have ich in your tank. You should treat this before adding ANYTHING else.
3. Sounds like you're experiencing a combo of poor planning and bad luck. Chance favors the prepared.
4. Your lfs is suspect, dead fish in their tanks and selling you fish against your better judgement. Find a new/better one.

[dMarina]

Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank. Take your time. Are you using RO/DI water?
Buy your own test kits, do not depend on the LFS. You need to test for calcium, Mg, nitrate, phosphates, alkalinity. Don't bother with test strips, get quality test kits and use them.
Learn patience. Research. Read up about which fish are compatible with each other. Scott Michael has a great book on it.

[crawlerman]

Unfortunately you added fish in the wrong order. The clown and damsels are very aggressive and will defend their territory against any newcomers. I would recommend getting rid of the damsels. Probably a good chance that the cardinal was collected using cyanide. That would explain why it died along with all of the ones in the store. As far as the clownfish goes I have always added 2 juvenile clowns at the same time to let them figure out who will be the dominant one and turn male. If yours is male and you try adding another male they will not live together in a 65. You really shouldn't put a tang in your 65. You could get away with a small yellow tang but he will outgrow the tank. Better off skipping the tangs until you upgrade to a tank over 4'.

First rule of reefing is to never trust your LFS. A little late but the best thing to do would be to come up with your fish list and ask for advice on here. Then you can decide what order to add them and if the fish should even be in your aquarium. I do not have any experience with snowflake eels, but I do know they will eat any fish that will fit in their mouth. I hate to say it but your best bet might be to start over.

Also you need to look into a quarantine tank for your incoming fish. You will get disease that will wipe out all of your existing fish. You already introduced a fish with ich, now your system has ich and will always have ick until you remove all fish from the system for the 72 day fallow period. I know it's not what you want to hear, but at this point you would be best served getting a credit back for all of your fish and starting over. If you don't start right you will have nothing but problems, as you are seeing now. Take the fish back and use the 72 days to plan and research what fish you want to add and what order to add them in. Otherwise you will just be frustrated, like you are now.

[TokiHacker]

Originally Posted by crawlerman

Unfortunately you added fish in the wrong order. The clown and damsels are very aggressive and will defend their territory against any newcomers. I would recommend getting rid of the damsels. Probably a good chance that the cardinal was collected using cyanide. That would explain why it died along with all of the ones in the store. As far as the clownfish goes I have always added 2 juvenile clowns at the same time to let them figure out who will be the dominant one and turn male. If yours is male and you try adding another male they will not live together in a 65. You really shouldn't put a tang in your 65. You could get away with a small yellow tang but he will outgrow the tank. Better off skipping the tangs until you upgrade to a tank over 4'.

First rule of reefing is to never trust your LFS. A little late but the best thing to do would be to come up with your fish list and ask for advice on here. Then you can decide what order to add them and if the fish should even be in your aquarium. I do not have any experience with snowflake eels, but I do know they will eat any fish that will fit in their mouth. I hate to say it but your best bet might be to start over.

Also you need to look into a quarantine tank for your incoming fish. You will get disease that will wipe out all of your existing fish. You already introduced a fish with ich, now your system has ich and will always have ick until you remove all fish from the system for the 72 day fallow period. I know it's not what you want to hear, but at this point you would be best served getting a credit back for all of your fish and starting over. If you don't start right you will have nothing but problems, as you are seeing now. Take the fish back and use the 72 days to plan and research what fish you want to add and what order to add them in. Otherwise you will just be frustrated, like you are now.

No Yellow tang!

if you are bent on getting a tang go with a Tomini or a yellow eye kole. They don't get nearly as large. Still suggested to stay away from tangs in general.

72 fallow period is a very smart thing to do.

[CaptD103]

Thank you everyone. I'm not set on any fish in particular. Honestly, the eel was my goal. I'm an avid scuba diver and always loved the idea of keeping an eel. He is super docile for now and easy to care for. He does not bother the fish at all since i learned to target feed him. At first i dropped his food in the tank and he would chase fish that swam through the food particles. Since stick feeding, he could care less about the other fish for now. I forgot I also have a flame angel. It sleeps in the same cave as the eel with no problems. I really did like the blue spot Toby and would love to reintroduce one some day. It has been 4 days or so since the fish had ich. It only showed signs for a few hours before I got it out of the tank and returned it. None of the other fish have shown any signs of it and seem to be thriving. Ive thought about removing the damsels as they seem a little aggressive at times, but really, the mood in the tank seems very relaxed. They were not even on the same side of the tank as the tang. If none of the other fish show signs of ich, is it still necessary to start over? I did a 25% water change the next day and plan on another one in the next day or 2.

What test kit is recommended?

Thanks for the help and sorry for all the rapid fire questions.

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by crawlerman

As far as the clownfish goes I have always added 2 juvenile clowns at the same time to let them figure out who will be the dominant one and turn male. If yours is male and you try adding another male they will not live together in a 65.

Quick correction, all clownfish are males, until the dominant one turns female. Two males can live peacefully, two females cannot.

As for your tank, get some Salifert test kits, they are pretty good and easy to use. Get rid of the damsels and the maroon, they are all super aggressive and likely will just murder any fish you add. I don't know much about eels, but get a cover, they can possibly escape. Skip the tang, I have a 65 and would never add any tang to it. I have had oddly poor success with Bangaii cardinals as well, and they were even captive bred. Maybe bad luck I think, but I have one now and thats all I'll get. They are supposedly easy fish, some people just don't have luck with them I guess. You want your tank to seem lively, I get it, but a big eel, two damsels, a clown and a flame angel is pretty stocked if you ask me. I have 6 fish in mine right now, only looking to add a few other small ones, and only one of them is big. Open space is nice, especially if you want corals.

If you added a fish with ich, your tank has ich. The only way to rid the tank of it is allow the tank to lay fallow AT LEAST 72 days. In the meantime you can set up a quarantine tank to treat current and then future tank residents.

[anthonys51]

Originally Posted by sde1500

Quick correction, all clownfish are males, until the dominant one turns female. Two males can live peacefully, two females cannot.



As for your tank, get some Salifert test kits, they are pretty good and easy to use. Get rid of the damsels and the maroon, they are all super aggressive and likely will just murder any fish you add. I don't know much about eels, but get a cover, they can possibly escape. Skip the tang, I have a 65 and would never add any tang to it. I have had oddly poor success with Bangaii cardinals as well, and they were even captive bred. Maybe bad luck I think, but I have one now and thats all I'll get. They are supposedly easy fish, some people just don't have luck with them I guess. You want your tank to seem lively, I get it, but a big eel, two damsels, a clown and a flame angel is pretty stocked if you ask me. I have 6 fish in mine right now, only looking to add a few other small ones, and only one of them is big. Open space is nice, especially if you want corals.



If you added a fish with ich, your tank has ich. The only way to rid the tank of it is allow the tank to lay fallow AT LEAST 72 days. In the meantime you can set up a quarantine tank to treat current and then future tank residents.

+1
I had to go though 8 banggai until I finally got 3 to live Them and chromis seems to die no matter what you do

Your tank will have ich. I will tell you it's possible to have fish live in a tank with ich. My hippo had had ich 3 times in 3 years. Each time after I moved the tank. It lived and no other fish had ich. I currently have 32 fish on my tank. I think when it comes to fish diseases. We really don't know that much about them But with you bring a newbie I will say you either stop adding fish or go fallow for 72 days. That list of fish will stress out any new comer to that tank and with ich being in the water they will get it and probably die


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[Ron Reefman]

You need to do a lot more research before you buy anything.

Your local LFS either doesn't care or is giving you bad information.

You need to do your own water testing. Ammonia, nitrate, salinity (specific gravity) and temperature for starters.

Until you are SURE about what you are doing, ask questions here. And you'll get better results if you ask them one or two at a time. It also helps if every time you ask a question, tell us about your tank. The more info you offer, the better people here can offer quality answers or suggestions.

This isn't an easy hobby to get started in because there are so many ways to get things wrong. As time goes by and you get to know more, it gets much easier... but that takes time. It took me a couple of years to get even remotely smart enough. And even now, 12 years in and with 4 tanks (over 400g total) I still learn things all the time!

I don't know where you are in the world, but there is a good list of local clubs at the bottom of this list of forums and getting involved can be a HUGE help.

[CaptD103]

Thank you for the help. I appreciate it. I just ordered the Salifert test kits. I had planned on setting up a quarantine tank and will definitely be waiting quite some time before adding anything else. I am not arguing, but I am struggling with getting rid of all of my fish. Big decision to make, even though it makes sense listening to everyone. If I set up a quarantine tank, can I move my fish into there and then back into the display tank after 72 days? Or would that just reintroduce ich?

[sde1500]

You can of course reintroduce them. But in the meantime, in the quarantine tank, you'll need to actually treat the ich. Easiest way would be use a couple totes or 5 gallon buckets, and look up Tank Transfer Method in the stickies. TTM for short, do that then into the QT tank for observation. Just remember, it won't be a cycled tank, so have plenty of ammonia tests on hand, along with amquel or prime to treat any ammonia buildup or you'll kill them all. I get that you like your fish, if you want to keep them go for it. Just remember that you will likely not be able to add much else that wouldn't get murdered.

[crawlerman]

I would say if you ever want to add more fish you have to at least get rid of the damsels. You can absolutely treat the fish then transfer back after 72 days. You can even live with ich in your tank. People do it all of the time, just not the best practice. But quarantining and leaving tank fallow for some is just not feasible. Considering you would only be treating a few fish I would thing the 72 days fallow while fish in QT would be the best option. If not any stress will bring an outbreak. I learned the hard way when a heater broke and temps dropped. The stress from the temp drop had every fish covered in ich. Most died before I could do anything.

What kind of skimmer are you running? How much liverock do you have? Are you running a refugium? What is the total water volume of your system including sump? These are all determining factors for how many fish you can keep. And it is not just number of fish, size matters. Bigger fish produce more waste. The big snowflake eel would be the same bio load as several small fish.

[Slats]

Originally Posted by sde1500

You can of course reintroduce them. But in the meantime, in the quarantine tank, you'll need to actually treat the ich. Easiest way would be use a couple totes or 5 gallon buckets, and look up Tank Transfer Method in the stickies. TTM for short, do that then into the QT tank for observation. Just remember, it won't be a cycled tank, so have plenty of ammonia tests on hand, along with amquel or prime to treat any ammonia buildup or you'll kill them all. I get that you like your fish, if you want to keep them go for it. Just remember that you will likely not be able to add much else that wouldn't get murdered.

OP - If you do decide to run a hospital tank and treat your fish and don't want to wait for it to potentially have a cycle or high ammonia. I have had success in the past setting up an "emergency" hospital tank before where one does a large water change on their DT and uses that water to mostly/partly fill their hospital tank and fill the rest with fresh salt water. As for treatment, I used cupramine to treat ich and it worked great. Forewarning, cupramine is a copper supplement that WILL leach into anything it come into contact with. Never use your hospital tank and or any equipment used within the tank for any invertebrates/corals after introducing copper. Don't even use the same fish net.

[Elricsfate]

Originally Posted by sde1500

You can of course reintroduce them. But in the meantime, in the quarantine tank, you'll need to actually treat the ich. Easiest way would be use a couple totes or 5 gallon buckets, and look up Tank Transfer Method in the stickies. TTM for short, do that then into the QT tank for observation. Just remember, it won't be a cycled tank, so have plenty of ammonia tests on hand, along with amquel or prime to treat any ammonia buildup or you'll kill them all. I get that you like your fish, if you want to keep them go for it. Just remember that you will likely not be able to add much else that wouldn't get murdered.

Given that he has not stated that he has any corals, or inverts that I recall, can he not treat the DT for ich and leave the fish in it?

[CaptD103]

I have a few corals. Ive got a Mohawk Palythoa, Kenya tree, GSP, and Rosa zoanthid. Also snails and hermits

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by Elricsfate

Given that he has not stated that he has any corals, or inverts that I recall, can he not treat the DT for ich and leave the fish in it?

Not with live rock. It absorbs copper, so can't use copper to treat, hypo is hard to maintain, plus kills off a lot of the biological filter, CP would be absorbed by the rock as well. And copper would render a tank useless as a reef tank forever pretty much. But he has corals so thats moot anyway.

[Tripod1404]

If your lfs said lavender tang is okay for 65g, I would not trust that store. That is one of the largest member of the bristletooth tang family. If you are able to, try to find a more trustworthy lfs.

[Sk8r]

Stop believing the lfs. Test your own water: get a refractometer, and tests for alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium before ANY new fish. Read the red-arrow sticky above, and form more questions to ask us. Go to Foster&SMith Live Aquaria and read the adult size AND consult the compatibility charts for anything you propose to buy: all that 65 can comfortably house are in the goby-blenny-jawfish-firefish-basslet classes. CLowns of only the smallest species.
First, however, you need to have NO FISH for a period of 72 days to let whatever's lurking in the sandbed (microscopic) starve to death and quit preying on the fish. Crabs and snails are safe from it, but no fish is.
If the charts seem too much for you, check out proposed purchases here with us and give your tank size. It is still too small for tangs of any sort; no rabbits; most angels, etc are a no-go. Gobies and blennies are your safest bets.

[Betaktical]

IME ttm only stresses fish out before they even have a chance to adjust. Fish need to be comfortable. If they get stressed they lose their slime coat and hello ich. I've never qt tried ttm a couple times and all the fish die. Stress=ich


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[RonMidtownStomp]

I'm just going to +1 the no rabbits comment. My spotted rabbit fish has tripled in size in two months.

I also think that if you are happy with the eel and none of the current fish are showing signs of ich that you could opt to leave it alone. My powder blue used to get a few specks every few months in my old system.

[CaptD103]

If I get the fish out for 72 days into a QT tank, could the eel stay in the DT? I've heard mixed things about them and ich. Also, would a UV filter play any role?

[RonMidtownStomp]

I might get flack for saying this, but I'd bet $10 the eel would die during the 72 days in quarantine. So much poo, and getting temperature control and filtration and everything set up on that system would be really expensive and difficult.

[anthonys51]

You could get a kole tang many fairy and flasher wrasses can fit in a tank that size



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