Coral beauty acting strange

[Reefer1991]

I had a thread a while ago about my two fish in qt but it isn't getting much feedback lately so I am going to make one specifically for my coral beauty. So I'll take you through what I have done so far. I received the fish on 4/5 along with a pink watchman goby. They both looked very healthy but after a few weeks the angel began scratching it's gills. I proceeded by dosing 3 rounds of prazi pro just in case flukes were the issue. The itching continued so now I have them in hypo (1.008-1.009). The gill rubbing seems to have stopped (as far as I know) but he has been acting odd lately. He will be swimming around fine and then all of the sudden it looks like he has trouble swimming. Sometimes he will be upright but have his bottom resting on the tank floor(only a few seconds at a time). Other times he will turn himself sideways so his side is touching the ground but then uprights himself. I can't tell if he does that to turn around since it's a tight space in between the pvc or if he is sick. He acts almost as if there is too much flow in the tank which isn't the case because it's just a hob filter and an airstone. I also thought maybe he is blind but he ate so I know he can atleast see somewhat.

Here is a short video. You can see that it looks like he is in a strong current but he isn't.
https://plus.google.com/107054426560...ts/fm6XVyPX8pk


I was reading about swim bladder disease but that doesn't sound quite right since the angel swims fine most of the time. Can anybody please help me figure out what's wrong with my angel? I've gotten pretty attached to the little guy after watching him upclose for so long. Please help my angel!!

Parameters
Ammonia. 0
Nitrites. 0
Nitrates. 50
Sg 1.008
78°

[Dealseer]

I don't see a problem.

[carrots]

Looks fine to me too.

[Reefer1991]

I agree the video doesn't show anything too alarming, although it does look like he is getting pushed by the flow from the filter which was never a problem for him before. Lately he has been clumsy and bumping into the sides of the pvc pipes. He swims around very slow like he's in a daze and doesn't have enough energy to swim. I have no real way of explaining his behavior but I feel like he probably doesn't have much longer. Can marine velvet sit dormant for this long? I have noticed the past couple weeks that his face looked a little dry but I figured I was just looking too closely haha plus velvet should kill quickly. Could low o2 cause these problems? The video may make him look ok, but I can tell you right now something is wrong. I am really at a loss for what could be causing this. I am sorry I can't explain this any better, I am just desperate for advice.

[juanmanuelsanch]

One sign of velvet is the swimming to the current to try to get some extra flow to the gills.

You may want to keep a close eye to it, since its a quick killer. You could see also some dusting in the skin. Hyposalinity will not work on it.

I normally use cupramine and paraguard in my QT procedure.

Here are some links

http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/g...ral_pagesid=83

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by juanmanuelsanch

One sign of velvet is the swimming to the current to try to get some extra flow to the gills.

You may want to keep a close eye to it, since its a quick killer. You could see also some dusting in the skin. Hyposalinity will not work on it.

I normally use cupramine and paraguard in my QT procedure.

Here are some links

http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/g...ral_pagesid=83

I quoted this from the live aquaria article.

"The symptoms of marine velvet usually involve the skin and lungs. Mild infections will usually only infect the gills and the fish may show minimal symptoms. As the infestation becomes more severe, the gills will become inflamed, bleed, and the lung tissue will begin to die. The fish will show signs of irritation and distress, with rapid breathing and lethargy. As the inflammation increases, the fish will lose its ability to transport oxygen across the gill membranes resulting in a fish that shows symptoms of suffocation, and if treatment is not initiated, death will often result."
This almost makes me think he may have a mild infection. The grayish sheen on his skin is only noticeable when he is looking directly at me and it is still very hard to see. I may just be looking to closely but the skin on his face definitely looks dry. Near the end of that quote it states that as the inflammation progresses the fish will loose it's ability to transport oxygen and show symptoms of suffocation. Maybe that is why he is acting like this? Could it be possible he isn't getting enough o2. He is breathing very rapidly. Should I ditch hypo and start cupramine? I'd hate to do that and it ends up being ich. I'll watch him a little longer but honestly if I don't treat whatever is causing this soon, he probably doesn't have much longer.

[Reefer1991]

He's not eating now

[_ld99]

Does a bacterial bloom cause low o2? The qt is foggy so I'm assuming it's going through one since ammonia and nitrites are 0. Could that cause these symptoms? I'm going to do a 5g wc when I get home from work at 7 If he's still alive. This is really bumming me out.

[_ld99]

Sorry I remembered the password for my old account and didn't realize I was still signed into it. It's reefer1991 btw lol.

[juanmanuelsanch]

If I were you I would do cupramine. I don't know if you can do it while in hyposalinity.

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by juanmanuelsanch

If I were you I would do cupramine. I don't know if you can do it while in hyposalinity.

I'll go to my lfs and buy some after work. My problem is if I have to raise the sg slowly before I dose it, he will probably be too far gone by then. Could I use the cp once I get the sg around 1.015 or do I need to be closer to 1.026? A lot of people say you need to go very slow when raising the sg(over a week) and i know he wont make it that long without treatment. Also do i need a test kit for cupramine? Thank you

[Reefer1991]

I just read that cupramine and prime will make the water toxic. I dosed the tank with prime yesterday just in case something was in the water. How do I ensure I have all of the prime out before dosing cupramine?

[juanmanuelsanch]

make a massive water change and put some carbon in the QT.

Or just as a temporary measure grab a container, fill it with new made water and put the fish there while you work eliminate prime or any other substance from the QT tank. Same salinity as your QT, otherwise you will kill the fish.

I know this is very frustrating. But I hope the fish makes it.

[Mishri]

you can't use cupramine in hypo. it will kill the fish. (seachem advises using half dosage in hypo, but who knows if that would be effective?) And like you said, you can't raise it very quickly, or it will kill the fish.

You can use Chloroquine Phosphate (use powder, not the food), it's fine with Prime. New Life Spectrum Ich Shield: powder is one product that contains it. You could also see a vet and try to get a prescription for it. here is the thread on using CP.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2397496

There are many things you can't use with cupramine, and it's really tough on the fish. I'm surprised anyone still recommends it.


^With that said.. I still have no idea what your fish has so these are anti-parasitic when it could be anything.... I can't see your video so pictures might help.. odd swimming patterns doesn't mean parasites... It could be simple stress/poor water quality and these medications are making it worse. -Cloudy water is a sign of poor water quality.

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by juanmanuelsanch

make a massive water change and put some carbon in the QT.

Or just as a temporary measure grab a container, fill it with new made water and put the fish there while you work eliminate prime or any other substance from the QT tank. Same salinity as your QT, otherwise you will kill the fish.

I know this is very frustrating. But I hope the fish makes it.

When I get home I'll do a 50% wc and add a new carbon pad. I've been using tropical fish carbon pads that came with the hob filter. Are these ok to use in saltwater? Right now I have 3 seeded sponge pads and 1 carbon pad In the hob. Would the 50% wc and the carbon be enough to rid the water of prime or atleast to the point where it's good enough for cp?

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by Mishri

you can't use cupramine in hypo. it will kill the fish. (seachem advises using half dosage in hypo, but who knows if that would be effective?) And like you said, you can't raise it very quickly, or it will kill the fish.

You can use Chloroquine Phosphate (use powder, not the food), it's fine with Prime. New Life Spectrum Ich Shield: powder is one product that contains it. You could also see a vet and try to get a prescription for it. here is the thread on using CP.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2397496

There are many things you can't use with cupramine, and it's really tough on the fish. I'm surprised anyone still recommends it.


^With that said.. I still have no idea what your fish has so these are anti-parasitic when it could be anything.... I can't see your video so pictures might help.. odd swimming patterns doesn't mean parasites... It could be simple stress/poor water quality and these medications are making it worse. -Cloudy water is a sign of poor water quality.

Thanks for the link. From what I have read cp isn't that rough on fish as long as you ramp the dosage up slowly and administer the levels properly. I have no experience with it so I'm not saying that's true though. I am just worried about treating him with cp now. I might just do the wc and watch him for a few days before I dose and hope he doesnt have velvet. Ughhhh I don't know what to do. He and my goby always hangout with each other and the coral beauty will rub him fins on the goby. I really hope the angel makes it because the 2 are hilarious together.

[Reefer1991]

I just got home and he was laying on his side breathing fast. He propped himself up and started swimming when he saw me. Here's a video
https://plus.google.com/107054426560...ts/EpmdhJUgE8N

I know I probably sound like a joke, but I'm honestly super bummed watching this little dude struggle.

[juanmanuelsanch]

I truly hope it makes it. Despite the fact that it dosent look good.

If the fish dies. Take everything and give it a good clean with vinegar. Let it dry for a few days. That will kill anything that is in the water.


You will have to start over and just follow a QT procedure.

The problem with those pellets is that if the fish is not eating it will not have any effect on it.

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by juanmanuelsanch

I truly hope it makes it. Despite the fact that it dosent look good.

If the fish dies. Take everything and give it a good clean with vinegar. Let it dry for a few days. That will kill anything that is in the water.

Thank you. I have a watchman goby in qt with him so I will have to follow through with the cupramine treatment to rid him of the disease even though he acts fine. It just sucks that this had to happen. Everything was going great until the last couple days. Now my led on my reef broke, Im at risk of being layed off, and my favorite fish is on its death bed. Isn't it awesome when your life flips upside down on you? Lol well thats enough complaining. I will begin slowly raising the sg and hope to he** that he survives until I dose cupramine.

[Reefer1991]

How fast can i raise the sg without hurting the fish? Raising it slow will result in the coral beauty dying, and raising it too fast will probably result in the goby and angel dying. How low is considered hypo? Can I dose the cp once sg is around 1.015?

[Reefer1991]

The more I search around, the more uncertain I get as far as treatment goes. As far as I know, velvet is very deadly and does its job quick. Its been 2 days now and the fish hasnt really gotten better or worse. But then again his face looks kind of powdery if you look REALLY CLOSE. I read one thread about a guy who had low ph and his coral beauty was acting weird. Hypo causes low ph so I opened the windows in the room and took the lid off the tank. I am going to watch the fish over the next few hours. If his condition stays the same or worsens than I will proceed with the cupramine.(I still need to raise sg so I probably won't be able to treat for about a week UNLESS someone has advice on how to treat sooner). Thank you so much and I appreciate your time.

[juanmanuelsanch]

Dude just dont freak out. Usually bad news comes in packs. Yes take it slow. As I said. If the fish dies...well its a shame, but not the end of the world.

I had 2 wipe outs in my system, the second one because of a stupid mistake that I made. I was about to quit the hobbie. But in the end you just take a big breath and start over.

Same applies for almost all bad situtations. Just hang in there and keep trying your best.

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by juanmanuelsanch

Dude just dont freak out. Usually bad news comes in packs. Yes take it slow. As I said. If the fish dies...well its a shame, but not the end of the world.

I had 2 wipe outs in my system, the second one because of a stupid mistake that I made. I was about to quit the hobbie. But in the end you just take a big breath and start over.

Same applies for almost all bad situtations. Just hang in there and keep trying your best.

I can't imagine having my whole tank getting wiped out. Sorry to hear about that man. I realize how insignificant my situation is, it just sucks lol.
Anyway, I bought cupramine this morning. I added a bit of seachem stability just to be safe as far as the bio filter goes. The sg is now at 1.010-1.011 so I dosed half of the recommended dosage(plus I have to take it slow since I have an angel). So right now the concentration in the tank should be .125. I'll test with my salifert test once I get back from work. Im hoping that low dose can atleast give the angel a fighting chance until I get to the full dosage. Seachem states that cp can be used with hypo but you should only bring the level up to .375 max. Hopefully he starts looking better soon, although he looks like he has a thick milky slime coat which I read is what happens right around the time the fish passes. We'll see!

[juanmanuelsanch]

The problem with this hobby is that there are few certain truths to it. Or at least is difficult to filter all the information. There is to much noise. If you try to find information in the web, it will look like your fish have all the diseases at the same time but there is also people claiming that garlic will cure it, which it won't.

Im in the same situation and I have a cabinet full of crap because of what I read. It's a learning process. The problem is that while you learn fishes dies.

I had fishes that died and they were looking great when I got them, never to understood what killed them.

Post a pic of the guy. They usually help to identify what's the cause and prevent from happening again.

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by juanmanuelsanch

Post a pic of the guy. They usually help to identify what's the cause and prevent from happening again.

Are the links invalid to the video? When I try to upload a picture directly to the site it says upload failed. Just in case this link works, here's a picture of him.

https://plus.google.com/107054426560...ts/cZ7bqmPRa6y

If this link doesn't work let me know and I will try to take a picture with a smaller file size and see if it works. I'm at work right now so I have to use a picture I already have on my phone.

You can't really tell from the picture but he has a milky slime coat where his body meets his dorsal fin.
(White streak on face is on the glass)