Sump design Critique

toddmau5 · 07/27/2017, 05:36 PM

Decided to go with a custom sump on the 265 gallon tank. Previously it was a 30gallon acrylic sump plumbed into a 40 breeder. I decided to go with 64"x18"x18". I wanted to leave 12" on one side for the calcium reactor and other media reactors, but still debating if I should remote mount the calcium reactor and get some of the BRS canister style reactors and hang on the wall and extend the sump another 12"?
On the other side I have decided to do one of those fancy separate electronics panels, to try and keep the electronics dry and the salt creep down. My current math has me at 6" deep plus the 2" of the stand frame for a total or 8" depth 44" high and 24" wide. Still debating if this is overkill or not.

On to the sump design. I have decided to go with the quieter overflow style, where the drain from the tank over flows a chamber that goes up and then over and into the filter socks, ive seen these a bunch an really love all the benefits of the design. Then It will have the skimmer chamber, Followed by another chamber with macro algea (mostly cheato) Im thinking 2 panels, one that flows over and one that flows under, to get the cheato some good cross flow through it. The final chamber will hold the live rock rubble or possibly marine pure balls and then the return pump. I think I will be ok without the infamous bubble traps. My last sump set up had no bubble traps and I could never see any issues with it in the 2 years it was running. By the time the water gets across the length of the sump, any bubbles that would have been there have already floated to the surface and popped.

Wanted to get everyones thoughts and see if there is anything that is definitely a bad idea, or a good idea or if I have over looked anything.
Sorry, I suck at MS PAINT...
http://i.imgur.com/ZATLKmn.jpg

Lsufan · 07/27/2017, 06:32 PM

It will take up a little more space but I would go with 7" socks on that size tank. 4" socks will clog pretty quick with the flow u will have on that system.

As far as the design, I don't see any issues with it. The one thing I will mention is how u have the drains & socks configured u will always have to use socks. If u take out the socks the waterfall going into that section will be loud. I find it is quieter to have the drains go straight into the socks instead of overflowing into them.

Don't get me wrong, I rather have it setup like your drawing. I have two systems with one like you plan on doing & one with the drains going straight into the socks. It makes it so much easier to change socks when the drain isn't in the sock. U don't even have to shut the system down to change them. The only downsides to it setup this way is it takes up more space & it is louder having the waterfall into the sock.

My systems are quiet to where u can't hear them at all. So when I first started up that tank I thought the sock section was loud. What I did was made some sock silencers to fit on the socks & it quieted it down drastically. I can hear it when my head is in the stand but I can't hear anything when I'm not down in the stand. Before I made the silencers I could hear it even with the doors shut.

toddmau5 · 07/27/2017, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lsufan

It will take up a little more space but I would go with 7" socks on that size tank. 4" socks will clog pretty quick with the flow u will have on that system.

As far as the design, I don't see any issues with it. The one thing I will mention is how u have the drains & socks configured u will always have to use socks. If u take out the socks the waterfall going into that section will be loud. I find it is quieter to have the drains go straight into the socks instead of overflowing into them.

Don't get me wrong, I rather have it setup like your drawing. I have two systems with one like you plan on doing & one with the drains going straight into the socks. It makes it so much easier to change socks when the drain isn't in the sock. U don't even have to shut the system down to change them. The only downsides to it setup this way is it takes up more space & it is louder having the waterfall into the sock.

My systems are quiet to where u can't hear them at all. So when I first started up that tank I thought the sock section was loud. What I did was made some sock silencers to fit on the socks & it quieted it down drastically. I can hear it when my head is in the stand but I can't hear anything when I'm not down in the stand. Before I made the silencers I could hear it even with the doors shut.

I was using 7" socks and I just fear it will take up way too much space into skimmer area. Originally the sumo set up was like you had it, pipes into the socks. It will still pretty noise and a PITA to change socks. What are these sock silencers you made?

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Lsufan · 07/27/2017, 07:49 PM

I made them out of acrylic & it really did make a huge difference on noise. It's basically a piece of acrylic cut to fit inside the ring of the sock with a bunch of holes drilled in it. U can search for them & get a better idea then my picture but vertex makes them & is where I got the design from. Mine are 7" socks.

I agree, I like this setup way better then my one with the pipe into the sock. U will need to do something to quiet it down though. It's the water that goes through the sock that makes the noise because it is like a waterfall. Usually the sock holder is taller then the water level in the sump so the water is falling through the sock to the water level of the sump. I find that anytime water drops more then about 1" it gets loud. Whether it's falling into the sock or falling over a baffle.

IMG_1285.jpg

toddmau5 · 07/27/2017, 08:55 PM

Hmm very interested, I like that. Anytime I've seen this style in person it's been pretty silent but I guess we'll have to wait and see

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Lsufan · 07/27/2017, 09:26 PM

People have different tolerances for noise, so I guess it depends on the individual. I can't hear eighther of my tanks if I'm standing right next to them. The only way I can hear anything is if my head is in the stand. One is in my bedroom & the other in my living room so I wanted them as quiet as possible.

Anyways, back to your sump. I think u have it figured out well. I think u will be ok without a bubble trap but it will depend on your skimmer. A syphon drain setup properly doesn't really cause bubbles so as long as u have a good, consistent skimmer that u keep dialed in u shouldn't have a issue with bubbles. The only place they can come from is the skimmer & if it is working properly it shouldn't be a issue. I tend to put a bubble trap after the skimmer anyways, but it probably isn't needed because my skimmers are consistent

Ron Reefman · 07/28/2017, 05:11 AM

Todd, I just ordered the glass to build a new sump and it is very close to the same design as yours. I just swapped the fuge and the skimmer. I'll let the cheato take out whatever it can and then skim whatever is left over. At some point I may add a drain to feed directly from the tank to the skimmer, but that involves a lot of work on a tank that is already full of coral!

Ignore the white out!

I have 3 drain lines to the sump and they will all feed directly into the 4" socks. My current smaller sump has 3 socks as well and I end up changing them about once every week to 10 days.

I'd be a bit concerned with chaeto getting through the rubble and into the return pump area. Not a big concern, but something I think you'll need to watch for. I'd just add a 2nd baffle to the left of the one that is between the fuge and return pump and run it to the bottom of the sump.

I've never had any issues with micro bubbles so I'm not employing any double baffles. I also made the return area just big enough for a DC15000 return pump (way bigger than I need). But when the power goes off, the siphon water can flow out over the entire sump/fuge. But I don't siphon much water anyway.

LobsterOfJustice · 07/28/2017, 09:19 AM

Between your skimmer section and refugium, I would have three baffles, under-over-under. Then I would switch the baffle between fuge and return to an over.

The way you have it set up now, the water level will drop in the return and refugium sections with evaporation. And I'm not confident you will effectively remove micro bubbles. The way I described will provide better bubble trap post skimmer, provide an effective flow pattern in the refugium to tumble cheato (across bottom then up the left side, leading to circular gyre), and will better separate the fuge and return sections to give a constant water level in the fuge area and keep sand and chaeto out of the return pump.

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jda · 07/28/2017, 11:13 AM

You all might consider skimming before the chaeto. The dissolved organics have some mass can get all stopped up in the chaeto before they get to the skimmer. What the chaeto will eat (N and P) will not be removed by the skimmer anyway, so being after is no big deal. This will keep your fuge a bit cleaner of debris and stuff.

If you want a lot of pods and microfauna in the fuge to eat some dissolved organics, then this is a bit different, but there will still be plenty after the skimmer since they never get all of the stuff out of the water.

toddmau5 · 07/28/2017, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

You all might consider skimming before the chaeto. The dissolved organics have some mass can get all stopped up in the chaeto before they get to the skimmer. What the chaeto will eat (N and P) will not be removed by the skimmer anyway, so being after is no big deal. This will keep your fuge a bit cleaner of debris and stuff.

If you want a lot of pods and microfauna in the fuge to eat some dissolved organics, then this is a bit different, but there will still be plenty after the skimmer since they never get all of the stuff out of the water.

This is how I've always done it. Don't want my pods getting a ride in the skimmer lol

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07/27/2017, 05:36 PM	#1
toddmau5 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Lutz, Fl Posts: 1,088	Sump design Critique Decided to go with a custom sump on the 265 gallon tank. Previously it was a 30gallon acrylic sump plumbed into a 40 breeder. I decided to go with 64"x18"x18". I wanted to leave 12" on one side for the calcium reactor and other media reactors, but still debating if I should remote mount the calcium reactor and get some of the BRS canister style reactors and hang on the wall and extend the sump another 12"? On the other side I have decided to do one of those fancy separate electronics panels, to try and keep the electronics dry and the salt creep down. My current math has me at 6" deep plus the 2" of the stand frame for a total or 8" depth 44" high and 24" wide. Still debating if this is overkill or not. On to the sump design. I have decided to go with the quieter overflow style, where the drain from the tank over flows a chamber that goes up and then over and into the filter socks, ive seen these a bunch an really love all the benefits of the design. Then It will have the skimmer chamber, Followed by another chamber with macro algea (mostly cheato) Im thinking 2 panels, one that flows over and one that flows under, to get the cheato some good cross flow through it. The final chamber will hold the live rock rubble or possibly marine pure balls and then the return pump. I think I will be ok without the infamous bubble traps. My last sump set up had no bubble traps and I could never see any issues with it in the 2 years it was running. By the time the water gets across the length of the sump, any bubbles that would have been there have already floated to the surface and popped. Wanted to get everyones thoughts and see if there is anything that is definitely a bad idea, or a good idea or if I have over looked anything. Sorry, I suck at MS PAINT... http://i.imgur.com/ZATLKmn.jpg __________________ http://www.aquaticlog.com/aquariums/titanuranus/4 265G mixed reef Current Tank Info: 265G

07/27/2017, 07:49 PM	#4
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	I made them out of acrylic & it really did make a huge difference on noise. It's basically a piece of acrylic cut to fit inside the ring of the sock with a bunch of holes drilled in it. U can search for them & get a better idea then my picture but vertex makes them & is where I got the design from. Mine are 7" socks. I agree, I like this setup way better then my one with the pipe into the sock. U will need to do something to quiet it down though. It's the water that goes through the sock that makes the noise because it is like a waterfall. Usually the sock holder is taller then the water level in the sump so the water is falling through the sock to the water level of the sump. I find that anytime water drops more then about 1" it gets loud. Whether it's falling into the sock or falling over a baffle. IMG_1285.jpg Last edited by Lsufan; 07/27/2017 at 08:12 PM.

07/27/2017, 08:55 PM	#5
toddmau5 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Lutz, Fl Posts: 1,088	Hmm very interested, I like that. Anytime I've seen this style in person it's been pretty silent but I guess we'll have to wait and see Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk __________________ http://www.aquaticlog.com/aquariums/titanuranus/4 265G mixed reef Current Tank Info: 265G

07/27/2017, 09:26 PM	#6
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	People have different tolerances for noise, so I guess it depends on the individual. I can't hear eighther of my tanks if I'm standing right next to them. The only way I can hear anything is if my head is in the stand. One is in my bedroom & the other in my living room so I wanted them as quiet as possible. Anyways, back to your sump. I think u have it figured out well. I think u will be ok without a bubble trap but it will depend on your skimmer. A syphon drain setup properly doesn't really cause bubbles so as long as u have a good, consistent skimmer that u keep dialed in u shouldn't have a issue with bubbles. The only place they can come from is the skimmer & if it is working properly it shouldn't be a issue. I tend to put a bubble trap after the skimmer anyways, but it probably isn't needed because my skimmers are consistent Last edited by Lsufan; 07/27/2017 at 09:36 PM.

07/28/2017, 05:11 AM	#7
Ron Reefman Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Coral, FL Posts: 10,431	Todd, I just ordered the glass to build a new sump and it is very close to the same design as yours. I just swapped the fuge and the skimmer. I'll let the cheato take out whatever it can and then skim whatever is left over. At some point I may add a drain to feed directly from the tank to the skimmer, but that involves a lot of work on a tank that is already full of coral! Ignore the white out! I have 3 drain lines to the sump and they will all feed directly into the 4" socks. My current smaller sump has 3 socks as well and I end up changing them about once every week to 10 days. I'd be a bit concerned with chaeto getting through the rubble and into the return pump area. Not a big concern, but something I think you'll need to watch for. I'd just add a 2nd baffle to the left of the one that is between the fuge and return pump and run it to the bottom of the sump. I've never had any issues with micro bubbles so I'm not employing any double baffles. I also made the return area just big enough for a DC15000 return pump (way bigger than I need). But when the power goes off, the siphon water can flow out over the entire sump/fuge. But I don't siphon much water anyway. __________________ The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. (Neil deGrasse Tyson) Visit my build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2593017

07/27/2017, 06:32 PM	#2
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	It will take up a little more space but I would go with 7" socks on that size tank. 4" socks will clog pretty quick with the flow u will have on that system. As far as the design, I don't see any issues with it. The one thing I will mention is how u have the drains & socks configured u will always have to use socks. If u take out the socks the waterfall going into that section will be loud. I find it is quieter to have the drains go straight into the socks instead of overflowing into them. Don't get me wrong, I rather have it setup like your drawing. I have two systems with one like you plan on doing & one with the drains going straight into the socks. It makes it so much easier to change socks when the drain isn't in the sock. U don't even have to shut the system down to change them. The only downsides to it setup this way is it takes up more space & it is louder having the waterfall into the sock. My systems are quiet to where u can't hear them at all. So when I first started up that tank I thought the sock section was loud. What I did was made some sock silencers to fit on the socks & it quieted it down drastically. I can hear it when my head is in the stand but I can't hear anything when I'm not down in the stand. Before I made the silencers I could hear it even with the doors shut.

07/28/2017, 09:19 AM	#8
LobsterOfJustice Recovering Detritophobe Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 7,443	Between your skimmer section and refugium, I would have three baffles, under-over-under. Then I would switch the baffle between fuge and return to an over. The way you have it set up now, the water level will drop in the return and refugium sections with evaporation. And I'm not confident you will effectively remove micro bubbles. The way I described will provide better bubble trap post skimmer, provide an effective flow pattern in the refugium to tumble cheato (across bottom then up the left side, leading to circular gyre), and will better separate the fuge and return sections to give a constant water level in the fuge area and keep sand and chaeto out of the return pump. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk __________________ If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles

07/28/2017, 11:13 AM	#9
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	You all might consider skimming before the chaeto. The dissolved organics have some mass can get all stopped up in the chaeto before they get to the skimmer. What the chaeto will eat (N and P) will not be removed by the skimmer anyway, so being after is no big deal. This will keep your fuge a bit cleaner of debris and stuff. If you want a lot of pods and microfauna in the fuge to eat some dissolved organics, then this is a bit different, but there will still be plenty after the skimmer since they never get all of the stuff out of the water.