I don't like the growth I see..........

[chunders]

Guys, need your help. I think this hobby has suckered me. haha

• 90 gallon reef tank with a 30 gallon fuge
• Running protein skimmer which doesn't pull out as great of quantity and darkness like I seen some photos of some doing.
• GFO.
• Dose 30 ml of vinegar 3x a day
• Dose 6ml of Seachem Reef Plus 1x a week
• Dose 6ml of Seachem Reef trace 1x a week
• Dose 10ml phytoplankton daily
• Weekly water changes with RODI unit and Instant Ocean
• Feed mysis, brine every 2 days.
• Feed flakes daily.

Levels

• Salinity 1.026
• Temp 78 F
• Calcium 340
• Magnesium 1500, maybe slightly higher
• Alkalinity 12dkh

Corals

• Torch coral - really has not shown growth over the last year
• trumpet coral - probably get 2 heads a month
• pulsing xenia- this has stayed about the same
• green star polyp - great growth, every month its just taking over
• green polyp duncan- great growth
• zoanthids - all of them are growing great few heads a month
• gold tip hammer - lost in the last year
• doughnut coral - this barely opens, has been same nickel size for year
• toadstool - was huge, like 3 inch diameter for the last year, then in the last month, it slowly fell apart, and now i have a nickel size.
• green birdsnest sps - great growth
• brain coral - very little growth
• mushroom coral - that thing left me in a month
• acropora??- turned brown, very little color. good growth though.

Fish invert

• 2 x blood red shrimp
• fox face
• kole tang
• coral beauty
• pajama cardinal
• 5 x blue chromis
• various red and blue crabs
• Few snails
• coral shrimp
• benny
• firefish

I have alot of detritus in the refugium and on the DT crushed coral bed. I can move a stick through the crush coral and it gets cloudy fast. I siphoned the best I can twice in 3 months. Is this normal?

Chateo DOES NOT grow. I have two simple clip on lights per the forums, running opposite of DT.

Carbon- I started with Vodka, and then switched over the vinegar. Vodka created weird stringly things at time, clogged the pipes, and screwed up flow. Big buildup in pipes. After switching to vinegar, I didn't see this issue. Been dosing the same amoount for few weeks, but not sure what my limit is. I can tell you one thing, I have no algae.

Can I add more fish or am I maxed?

Aptasia attack. I have so many that prop up. I use aptasia X every 2 weeks. The corner reef tank area has alot in there that I cant even get rid of.

What can I do about the coral growth?

I bought all these supplements for mg, calcium and alk but never use them because it appears I am maxed. Any feedback greatly appreciated. I am not happy with the coral growth overall.

[chunders]

Leveled continued

Nitrate - 0-1 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Ph - 7.4 or less? Color was strange.
Ammonia - 0ppm

[slief]

A couple things. First, you didn’t mention what skimmer you have. You don’t have much of a fish load so if your skimmer is oversized, it might struggle to keep a foam head.

You didn’t mention the age of your tank. You didn’t mention Po4 levels. Your nitrates are really low and if your Po4 levels are low, that would explain the lack of growth in your cheato. Also, most of the corals you mentioned are soft corals which prefer high nutrients and use those nutrients for growth.

Your Alk is kind of high for most of the corals you mentioned, your Ca is low and your pH (assuming 7.4 is correct) is VERY low.

[chunders]

Originally Posted by slief

A couple things. First, you didn’t mention what skimmer you have. You don’t have much of a fish load so if your skimmer is oversized, it might struggle to keep a foam head.

You didn’t mention the age of your tank. You didn’t mention Po4 levels. Your nitrates are really low and if your Po4 levels are low, that would explain the lack of growth in your cheato. Also, most of the corals you mentioned are soft corals which prefer high nutrients and use those nutrients for growth.

Your Alk is kind of high for most of the corals you mentioned, your Ca is low and your pH (assuming 7.4 is correct) is VERY low.

Hey! Thank you for your response.

The skimmer I have is a Reef Octopus 110int 5 years old or so. It has a foam head but I always have to tinker with the thing, then few days later it drained out the water into the bucket. Don't get me wrong, I do get dark build up, crud, just not to the levels that others have experienced.

I just realized.. I don't own a phosphate test..

PH I think could be lower than 7.4. Maybe 5? The apex neptune needs calibration, just installed it a few days back. I was under the impression it was low because of the dosing of vinegar.

What do you think I should do next steps to get the levels I need?

[top shelf]

Don't lower your pH any further then what it is but yes vinegar dosing I believe can lower it. However I wouldn't chase pH as you will likely do more harm then good. Personally don't even own a pH test. pH is related to the amount of co2 in your tank and it's ability to buffer alkalinity. Could be a lack of gas exchange, try pointing a powerhead at the surface but your skimmer should be helping with that already. Or could be a build up of co2 in your house. During winter months houses are more closed up and doesn't allow for as much co2 to escape and it builds up affecting our tanks.

To lower levels and raise calcium mix a fresh batch of salt with rodi and test levels. If your salt mix already reads high in mag and alk then you'll want to change to a salt with levels closer to nsw otherwise you'll just keep raising them with each water change. If alk is closer to 8-9 and mag 1350 large wc will bring them down. Raising calc requires the same process. Test a fresh batch mixed to 1.026 if low you can easily buffer up to 440 and do wc to bring it back within the range of 420-440.

[slief]

Originally Posted by chunders

Hey! Thank you for your response.

The skimmer I have is a Reef Octopus 110int 5 years old or so. It has a foam head but I always have to tinker with the thing, then few days later it drained out the water into the bucket. Don't get me wrong, I do get dark build up, crud, just not to the levels that others have experienced.

I just realized.. I don't own a phosphate test..

PH I think could be lower than 7.4. Maybe 5? The apex neptune needs calibration, just installed it a few days back. I was under the impression it was low because of the dosing of vinegar.

What do you think I should do next steps to get the levels I need?

Your skimmer will only produce skimmate for the amount of DOC’s available and you don’t have a huge load.

I would get that probe calibrated. If your pH is truly 7.4, that’s really low. 7.7 is about as low as I would ever go without sounding alarms and even that would be a bit low for most people’s liking. 8.0 is a much better target. Mine ranges from 7.9 - 8.1. You need to get the pH up so get the probe calibrated and if it’s that low, add some pH buffer.

Given your fish load, I don’t know why you would be dosing vinegar. To me that makes no sense because some nitrates is a good thing contrary to what some will tell you. If it were me, I wouldn’t even consider dosing carbon sources with a load like that. As such, I would cut back on the dosing and ween yourself off of it unless there is a good reason in your case which I’ve yet to hear. You didn’t mention how long your system has been up.

I think you should get your calcium levels up to 425-450.. if it were me, I’d target lower alk levels. I prefer alk levels under 9 personally and anywhere between 7.5 and 9 is where I’d target as long as they are consistent. If you had an SPS only tank, then maybe a bit higher but that’s just me.

Get a Hanna HI736 ULR phosphorus tester. That is the best ultra low range tester and it’s cheap enough. The Hanna HI713 phosphate tester isn’t accurate in our range so avoid it. Color based testers are hard to read and as such, not precise. For alk and Ca testing, I recommend Salifert test kits. Red Sea Pro aren’t bad either but I prefer Salifert.

Oh and 1500 Mg is on the high side. I would be aiming for 1350.

That said, ANY changes you make should be done slowly over the course of several days or more. Nothing good happens in this hobby fast.

[chunders]

Originally Posted by top shelf

Don't lower your pH any further then what it is but yes vinegar dosing I believe can lower it. However I wouldn't chase pH as you will likely do more harm then good. Personally don't even own a pH test. pH is related to the amount of co2 in your tank and it's ability to buffer alkalinity. Could be a lack of gas exchange, try pointing a powerhead at the surface but your skimmer should be helping with that already. Or could be a build up of co2 in your house. During winter months houses are more closed up and doesn't allow for as much co2 to escape and it builds up affecting our tanks.

To lower levels and raise calcium mix a fresh batch of salt with rodi and test levels. If your salt mix already reads high in mag and alk then you'll want to change to a salt with levels closer to nsw otherwise you'll just keep raising them with each water change. If alk is closer to 8-9 and mag 1350 large wc will bring them down. Raising calc requires the same process. Test a fresh batch mixed to 1.026 if low you can easily buffer up to 440 and do wc to bring it back within the range of 420-440.

OK I will leave the ph alone. I can ween off the vinegar to indirectly increase PH? Gas exchange is happening from skimmer, and I also have the pipe from the tank pouring into the refugium breaking the water. Tank is in basement. Winter in Chicago.

For calcium can I just dose it with my autodoser?

[chunders]

Originally Posted by slief

Your skimmer will only produce skimmate for the amount of DOC’s available and you don’t have a huge load.

I would get that probe calibrated. If your pH is truly 7.4, that’s really low. 7.7 is about as low as I would ever go without sounding alarms and even that would be a bit low for most people’s liking. 8.0 is a much better target. Mine ranges from 7.9 - 8.1. You need to get the pH up so get the probe calibrated and if it’s that low, add some pH buffer.

Given your fish load, I don’t know why you would be dosing vinegar. To me that makes no sense because some nitrates is a good thing contrary to what some will tell you. If it were me, I wouldn’t even consider dosing carbon sources with a load like that. As such, I would cut back on the dosing and ween yourself off of it unless there is a good reason in your case which I’ve yet to hear. You didn’t mention how long your system has been up.

I think you should get your calcium levels up to 425-450.. if it were me, I’d target lower alk levels. I prefer alk levels under 9 personally and anywhere between 7.5 and 9 is where I’d target as long as they are consistent. If you had an SPS only tank, then maybe a bit higher but that’s just me.

Get a Hanna HI736 ULR phosphorus tester. That is the best ultra low range tester and it’s cheap enough. The Hanna HI713 phosphate tester isn’t accurate in our range so avoid it. Color based testers are hard to read and as such, not precise. For alk and Ca testing, I recommend Salifert test kits. Red Sea Pro aren’t bad either but I prefer Salifert.

Oh and 1500 Mg is on the high side. I would be aiming for 1350.

That said, ANY changes you make should be done slowly over the course of several days or more. Nothing good happens in this hobby fast.

AH yes, the tank has been running for 18 months. Yeah the PH is low but I thought that is the side effect from vinegar dosing.

I didn't realize I can put more fish I was told I was at my limit. So I can add another double?

I started dosing carbon because of the algae I was getting. But maybe I reduce 5 ml a day and see if the PH levels?

How can I bring alk down? and MG down?

[chunders]

Originally Posted by slief

Your skimmer will only produce skimmate for the amount of DOC’s available and you don’t have a huge load.

I would get that probe calibrated. If your pH is truly 7.4, that’s really low. 7.7 is about as low as I would ever go without sounding alarms and even that would be a bit low for most people’s liking. 8.0 is a much better target. Mine ranges from 7.9 - 8.1. You need to get the pH up so get the probe calibrated and if it’s that low, add some pH buffer.

Given your fish load, I don’t know why you would be dosing vinegar. To me that makes no sense because some nitrates is a good thing contrary to what some will tell you. If it were me, I wouldn’t even consider dosing carbon sources with a load like that. As such, I would cut back on the dosing and ween yourself off of it unless there is a good reason in your case which I’ve yet to hear. You didn’t mention how long your system has been up.

I think you should get your calcium levels up to 425-450.. if it were me, I’d target lower alk levels. I prefer alk levels under 9 personally and anywhere between 7.5 and 9 is where I’d target as long as they are consistent. If you had an SPS only tank, then maybe a bit higher but that’s just me.

Get a Hanna HI736 ULR phosphorus tester. That is the best ultra low range tester and it’s cheap enough. The Hanna HI713 phosphate tester isn’t accurate in our range so avoid it. Color based testers are hard to read and as such, not precise. For alk and Ca testing, I recommend Salifert test kits. Red Sea Pro aren’t bad either but I prefer Salifert.

Oh and 1500 Mg is on the high side. I would be aiming for 1350.

That said, ANY changes you make should be done slowly over the course of several days or more. Nothing good happens in this hobby fast.

Also I do have the PH buffer I could start adding. So maybe ween off vingear while also adding buffer,.

[fishresponse]

What lights do you have? Also, I would be careful adding any pH buffer as it will increase your alk even more. Adding 2 part alk and calcium is ideal. I would do a water change to help balance the levels. Then test again and start your 2 part. I use ESV. You don’t need to add more fish. Feeding more will increase your bio load as well causing nitrate and phosphate increases. And you can control how much you feed. Adding another fish would mean more food and of course more bioload. Do you spot feed your corals? That can help with growth. Regarding your brown sps coral, I’m assuming it’s because of higher phosphate.

[mcgyvr]

Do not use GFO unless you have a real phosphate problem.. Doing so blindly is a big mistake..

Do not mess with your ph.. I have zero faith that you can measure it accurately so all I will say is stop looking at ph.. Do not add a ph buffer either..
Let ph be what its going to be..

Corals need stable/proper water parameters and you don't seem to be aware of how to achieve that so I would suggest spending time learning more
Start here..
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

If you have been using GFO and carbon dosing then its very possible that you have stripped much of the phosphate from the water and as such would have growth problems as both nitrates and phosphates are nutrients necessary for proper growth.
Its like fertilizer for your grass.. Too much and you burn out the grass.. Too little and it grows weak/slow/full of weeds..

Its also not a good idea to dose anything or use products intended to alter something without knowing your current levels and how that product is effecting them..
aka don't dose what you can't test for.. With weekly water changes its highly unlikely that a trace element liquid is necessary.. Your new saltwater will replenish all the trace elements needed..

[ReefkeeperZ]

calcium is a little low that will definitely slow down growth of any coral requiring calcium I would shoot for abut 400-450, and KH is really high 8.8 is a good level to shoot for with that.

[ReefkeeperZ]

heres a handy quick reference guide I use when my brain cramps up and can't remember what I am doing (happens more and more every year)
https://www.reefcleaners.org/target-...water-aquarium

[Timfish]

+1 on PO4 is too low.

Here's some experiements done with corals in a ULN system. PO4 deficiency really messes up the coral/zooxanthellae simbiosis

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.or...enrichment.pdf
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...015.00103/full
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...601?via%3Dihub

And here's a video by Fichard Ross ar MACNA 2014 on phosphate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRIKW-9d2xI


(Here's a mole/gram converter if needed:
https://www.chemicalaid.com/tools/mo...weight=&moles= )

[FoxFace Fish]

tbh I don't like the growth I see in my tank but that is life

[HBtank]

Be careful of “use it all syndrome”, it’s fun adding new gadgets/additives and trying to solve problems, but you can do the opposite (and strip your tank too much or overdose). Something like running GFO all the time is a red flag to me on new tanks for this “syndrome”.

Have a clear goal for every piece of equipment (or additive) and don’t be afraid to cut back to raise nutrients, stabilize, to see how things respond.

[chunders]

Originally Posted by fishresponse

What lights do you have? Also, I would be careful adding any pH buffer as it will increase your alk even more. Adding 2 part alk and calcium is ideal. I would do a water change to help balance the levels. Then test again and start your 2 part. I use ESV. You don’t need to add more fish. Feeding more will increase your bio load as well causing nitrate and phosphate increases. And you can control how much you feed. Adding another fish would mean more food and of course more bioload. Do you spot feed your corals? That can help with growth. Regarding your brown sps coral, I’m assuming it’s because of higher phosphate.

hello. This is the light I have.
https://www.amazon.com/Programmable-...s=pet-supplies

I occasionally spot feed the corals. I wasn't sure why the brown sps coral was that way, and the birdsnest was doing very well, and the zoas as well. This growth was not there when I didn't carbon dose.

[chunders]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Do not use GFO unless you have a real phosphate problem.. Doing so blindly is a big mistake..

Do not mess with your ph.. I have zero faith that you can measure it accurately so all I will say is stop looking at ph.. Do not add a ph buffer either..
Let ph be what its going to be..

Corals need stable/proper water parameters and you don't seem to be aware of how to achieve that so I would suggest spending time learning more
Start here..
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

If you have been using GFO and carbon dosing then its very possible that you have stripped much of the phosphate from the water and as such would have growth problems as both nitrates and phosphates are nutrients necessary for proper growth.
Its like fertilizer for your grass.. Too much and you burn out the grass.. Too little and it grows weak/slow/full of weeds..

Its also not a good idea to dose anything or use products intended to alter something without knowing your current levels and how that product is effecting them..
aka don't dose what you can't test for.. With weekly water changes its highly unlikely that a trace element liquid is necessary.. Your new saltwater will replenish all the trace elements needed..

Thank you for the article, will review.

I think if I could dose and not water change that would be great. I was doign that, but about a month ago I introduced the water changes. 20%.

The tank again was running 16 months now.

[chunders]

Originally Posted by ReefkeeperZ

heres a handy quick reference guide I use when my brain cramps up and can't remember what I am doing (happens more and more every year)
https://www.reefcleaners.org/target-...water-aquarium

Thanks will review!

Originally Posted by Timfish

+1 on PO4 is too low.

Here's some experiements done with corals in a ULN system. PO4 deficiency really messes up the coral/zooxanthellae simbiosis

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.or...enrichment.pdf
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...015.00103/full
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...601?via%3Dihub

And here's a video by Fichard Ross ar MACNA 2014 on phosphate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRIKW-9d2xI


(Here's a mole/gram converter if needed:
https://www.chemicalaid.com/tools/mo...weight=&moles= )

Will review those articles thank you!

Originally Posted by HBtank

Be careful of “use it all syndrome”, it’s fun adding new gadgets/additives and trying to solve problems, but you can do the opposite (and strip your tank too much or overdose). Something like running GFO all the time is a red flag to me on new tanks for this “syndrome”.

Have a clear goal for every piece of equipment (or additive) and don’t be afraid to cut back to raise nutrients, stabilize, to see how things respond.

Damn those gadgets. What is considered new?

Originally Posted by ReefkeeperZ

calcium is a little low that will definitely slow down growth of any coral requiring calcium I would shoot for abut 400-450, and KH is really high 8.8 is a good level to shoot for with that.

[chunders]

I reduced to 30ml of vinegar starting tomorrow, did 45 today, will keep reducing until I am done.

GFO I stopped this evening as well.

Excited to see where these changes go.

[chunders]

Here is where I am at today.

Have not run GFO.
Have not dosed vinegar.

My levels went up in a few areas, some shot up.

Nitrate - 30-40
Nitrite - 0ppppm
ph - 7.4
Alkalinity - 143ppm
magnesium 1500
calcium 400ppm
phosphate 1.0

The nitrate used to be 0... GFO and vinegar shut off made it jump.

So what do you guys think I need to focus on and improve level wise?

[alton]

You will need to moderate the amount of dosing to get your nitrates down to 2 to 10 ppm. And also your phosphates slightly. Birdsnest and GSP are very low light so beg or borrow a PAR meter to check on your light levels to help with the rest of your coral. On your light do you have 2 x 16" or one 32"?

[chunders]

Originally Posted by alton

You will need to moderate the amount of dosing to get your nitrates down to 2 to 10 ppm. And also your phosphates slightly. Birdsnest and GSP are very low light so beg or borrow a PAR meter to check on your light levels to help with the rest of your coral. On your light do you have 2 x 16" or one 32"?

I figured it is only a matter of time I started dosing, just starting fresh and getting the right level.

I have one large light shown below as attachment

[chunders]

Here are some photos of my tank and progress. It looks the same as when I was dosing alot few weeks back.

This is what it looks like now.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UG...qz_LVISwF3psLo



https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Qr...e7xVSAI2rzoPBZ

https://drive.google.com/open?id=190...Z_XM4CdzFbpok4

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1if...Wmq1IYXTwEaPL6

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rb...Hnh7p18JWL90p7


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zB...wZ7kQuwTfLIS3M

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pX...pQFLDC1yFYA4Jn

[chunders]

Corals all look the same. have not re-started dosing of vinegar yet. gfo still off. ph shows 7.4