Return Pump

john fidler · 02/09/2018, 11:06 AM

Hi,

I'm in the process of setting up a new 75 gal system (to replace my old 75 gal system - incorporating lessons learned).

Trying to decide on a return pump. Looking to get about 500-600gph at about 5 feet of head. I currently run a MAG12 (which honestly I have had no problems with for over 5 years) and I have another new MAG12 that I was thinking of using for the new tank (I would be teeing off for a sump fuge and can also valve it down if need be to reduce output). My only concern with the MAG12 is energy efficiency and maybe noise (although to me it doesn't seem that bad).

Should I just use the MAG12 or what would you recommend in lieu of a MAG12? Not really sure I'm interested in DC pumps since I don't quite understand the advantage for a return pump. Unless, you guys convince me I'm thinking old school or just wrong. Cost is of a concern (like to keep it around $200 or less), but I'm looking more for reliability and energy efficiency so willing to go a little higher if need be.

Thanks for any replies/thoughts.

John

HBtank · 02/09/2018, 11:14 AM

While I don't think a DC pump is a must have, the advantages are:

At the pressures we work with DC generally uses less watts/flow.
Being able to tune the flow to your overflow and sump can let you gain even more efficiency, and potentially a quieter system, over a "single setting" AC pump.
On the flip side, I have found being able to turn the rate up for short periods to be nice, throw on a sock and blow off the rocks... makes for a nice angle on cleaning.

But they are not as reliable as most proven AC pumps, I have some AC pumps that literally could care less about cleaning and are 15+ years old.

Most are finding DC reliability acceptable though and using them; I personally have never considered a return pump (or design a system that made it so) to be critical withstanding being gone for very long periods (and then every piece is critical).

LQT · 02/09/2018, 11:19 AM

For an AC pump, I’d look at the Fluval SP line, either the SP2 @ 950gph at a max of 12’ of head or SP4 at 1822gph at a max of 12’ of head. Built like a tank with an Askoll motor block, super quiet and energy efficient. Personally, I’d go SP4 for the extra capacity and dial it back with a gate valve. In doing so, you’ll also gain energy savings.

john fidler · 02/09/2018, 11:31 AM

HBtank,

Thanks for the insight. I'm designing redundancy into both the sump and tank in term so heat and flow, so I also don't consider the return pump to be super critical.

LQT, Thanks, I'll look into the Fluval pumps.

John

outy · 02/09/2018, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john fidler

I'm looking more for reliability and energy efficiency so willing to go a little higher if need be.

Thanks for any replies/thoughts.

John

I have an Iwaki and its one of the best pumps out but at 160W It was costing over 200 a year in electricity.

I went with the Jeboa DCP line which is more reliable then previous models and was only a 100 bucks. Good thing is it only uses 70 ish in electricity a year at 55W.

You could go with DCP 6500 under a 100 and probably run it at 35-40W

I have a mag 9.5 for over a decade, and it still runs, but like yours it is an energy pig and not silent. The DCP is dead silent.

Zalick · 02/09/2018, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john fidler

Hi,

I'm in the process of setting up a new 75 gal system (to replace my old 75 gal system - incorporating lessons learned).

Trying to decide on a return pump. Looking to get about 500-600gph at about 5 feet of head. I currently run a MAG12 (which honestly I have had no problems with for over 5 years) and I have another new MAG12 that I was thinking of using for the new tank (I would be teeing off for a sump fuge and can also valve it down if need be to reduce output). My only concern with the MAG12 is energy efficiency and maybe noise (although to me it doesn't seem that bad).

Should I just use the MAG12 or what would you recommend in lieu of a MAG12? Not really sure I'm interested in DC pumps since I don't quite understand the advantage for a return pump. Unless, you guys convince me I'm thinking old school or just wrong. Cost is of a concern (like to keep it around $200 or less), but I'm looking more for reliability and energy efficiency so willing to go a little higher if need be.

Thanks for any replies/thoughts.

John

I used to run a mag 12 for return. Switched to the vectra L1 because my tank is in the middle of my living room/dining room and kitchen, so noise was an issue even though the mag 12 wasn't that loud.

If noise is not an issue, I would keep the mag 12 and not waste the money. You can adjust the flow with a valve, so no real advantage over a DC in that respect. It would take a long time to recoup $200 in energy savings too.

john fidler · 02/09/2018, 11:39 AM

Zalick,

Good point about recouping any savings. Thanks.

outy · 02/09/2018, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalick

It would take a long time to recoup $200 in energy savings too.

Not true, you have not even looked at the math.

Mag 12 runs $153 dollars a year to run , and $120 cost. First year cost is $270

Jebao DCP 6500 runs $62 a year to run with a 60 dollar cost. First year cost is $120

Quote:

vectra L1

They don't have the reliability the Jebao does, and cost is ridiculous in comparison.

Fact is you could buy a second Jeboa as a back up and still be ahead.

HBtank · 02/09/2018, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outy

They don't have the reliability the Jebao does, and cost is ridiculous in comparison.

Fact is you could buy a second Jeboa as a back up and still be ahead.

You have no basis/data for this comparison; Jebao has a loooong track record of failures, and the newest model has not been out long enough to make any conclusions.

LQT · 02/09/2018, 01:16 PM

A Fluval SP4 running on full blast a 0 head is rated at 88 watts. Running at full blast on a 24” Lifereef skimmer, it runs at 50 watts when measured with a Kill-A-Watt. My guess is that throttled back with a gate valve for the OP’s flow needs on his 75 gallon tank, the SP4 would run at even less than 50 watts.

outy · 02/09/2018, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HBtank

and the newest model has not been out long enough to make any conclusions.

Yes it has, hundreds to thousands sold and almost no complaints, they have been out a while. 2016 Oct 28. Fish Street Release new series for the DCP Pump.

Now you have no credibility at all, you are biased and have been trolling this pump for a long time. You were proven wrong on much of your opinions on pumps, and don't make me go back and quote your many contradictions.

So 15 months of use and almost no complaints, and you filed miserably when you tried and looked at how many failed, so now your rhetoric has changed.

LOL

outy · 02/09/2018, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LQT

Running at full blast on a 24” Lifereef skimmer, it runs at 50 watts when measured with a Kill-A-Watt. .

Thanks for the comparison, but that is running as a closed loop, not as a recirc pump with head pressure.

Big difference in wattage used.

Quote:

My guess is, less than 50 watts

Run a 6' hose up and get a real measurement, I guess it will be closer to 75W

Quote:

with a gate valve for the OP’s flow needs

With these style pumps one can just use less diameter pipe and it cuts flow dramatically. Add a few elbows or 90's and it cuts even more.

best advise is to use a heat gun and large diameter pipe to get the best flow with a DC pump and one can then lower wattage dramatically, while getting the exact flow one requires.

LQT · 02/09/2018, 01:42 PM

Running through a venturi on a Lifereef is nothing like running on a closed loop. There is an incredible amount of pressure involved. In fact, Jeff of Lifereef recommends pressure rated Blueline pumps for his skimmers when run externally. He personally runs a Mag 18 on his 24” Lifereef.

The OP asked for a recommendation on an AC pump. Throttled back for his flow needs, I am very confident that the SP4 will run at less than 50 watts. A German AC pump with an Askoll motor block = reliability, efficiency & longevity.

outy · 02/09/2018, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LQT

I am very confident that the SP4 will run at less than 50 watts. .

please test it then

HBtank · 02/09/2018, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outy

Yes it has, hundreds to thousands sold and almost no complaints, they have been out a while. 2016 Oct 28. Fish Street Release new series for the DCP Pump.

Now you have no credibility at all, you are biased and have been trolling this pump for a long time. You were proven wrong on much of your opinions on pumps, and don't make me go back and quote your many contradictions.

So 15 months of use and almost no complaints, and you filed miserably when you tried and looked at how many failed, so now your rhetoric has changed.

LOL

“No complaints”.... LOL

Go ahead and quote me where I was wrong. Have fun.

LQT · 02/09/2018, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outy

please test it then

I no longer own my Lifereef and SP4... as seen on the other thread, I now have a Tunze 1073.050 as a return pump. I’m sorry that imy Fluval suggestion doesn’t fit your narrative that all AC pumps are expensive energy hogs....

Regardless of what you try to push down our throats, IMHO I feel there are better and more reliable alternatives than the Jebao DCP.

Zalick · 02/09/2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outy

Not true, you have not even looked at the math.

Mag 12 runs $153 dollars a year to run , and $120 cost. First year cost is $270

Jebao DCP 6500 runs $62 a year to run with a 60 dollar cost. First year cost is $120

Not true, I did run the math, in Oregon.

Mag 12 is 110 watts. Yearly cost is ~$60
Jebao DCP 6500 is 55 watts. Yearly cost is ~$30.

For the OP, cost of the Mag 12 which he already owns is $0. It would take him 2 years to recoup the $60 spent on the Jebao. BUT, he was asking about a $200 pump and my response was to a $200 pump, not a $60 pump.

So my statement was correct that it would take a long time for HIM to recoup $200 when saving $30/yr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outy

They don't have the reliability the Jebao does, and cost is ridiculous in comparison.

Fact is you could buy a second Jeboa as a back up and still be ahead.

This thread was not a debate about Jebao v. Ecotech reliability. Nor was I suggesting he buy a L1. What does Jebao v. Ecotech have to do with the OP's question?

HBtank · 02/09/2018, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalick

Not true, I did run the math, in Oregon.

Mag 12 is 110 watts. Yearly cost is ~$60
Jebao DCP 6500 is 55 watts. Yearly cost is ~$30.

For the OP, cost of the Mag 12 which he already owns is $0. It would take him 2 years to recoup the $60 spent on the Jebao. BUT, he was asking about a $200 pump and my response was to a $200 pump, not a $60 pump.

So my statement was correct that it would take a long time for HIM to recoup $200 when saving $30/yr.

This thread was not a debate about Jebao v. Ecotech reliability. Nor was I suggesting he buy a L1. What does Jebao v. Ecotech have to do with the OP's question?

Don't bother, he is incapable of providing any advice that is not a carbon copy of his setup...

"Mr. Math" can't even be bothered to understand that energy costs are are not the same everywhere...

john fidler · 02/09/2018, 03:36 PM

Guys,

Sorry, didn't mean to stir up a debate on the merits of AC vs DC pumps and various brands. To be clear, my first main goal for the pump was reliability followed by energy efficiency. While it seems obvious there are more energy efficient pumps than the MAG12 I already have, my own experience in running one has been positive from strictly a reliability issue. Don't know if there is any real statistical data (not anecdotal) on the reliability of various brands of pumps, and I'm not even sure DC pumps have been around long enough to have meaningful data (i.e., no offense to anyone, "long enough" to me is more than 2 or 3 years).

For now, and since I already have it still NIB, I'll plan on using the MAG12 until I can look into all the options.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in, though.

outy · 02/09/2018, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalick

Not true, I did run the math, in Oregon.

Mag 12 is 110 watts. Yearly cost is ~$60
Jebao DCP 6500 is 55 watts. Yearly cost is ~$30.

Nope. You don't have to run the jeboa 100% like the mag.

I wish I had your prices, here it is 16c kwh

Or is 9.8 on average at 10 kwh the yearly rate is $96 your math is off

jebao is only $39

outy · 02/09/2018, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john fidler

While it seems obvious there are more energy efficient pumps than the MAG12 I already have, my own experience in running one has been positive from strictly a reliability issue. .

They have been a great pump, my 9.5 has to be getting close to 15 years old and was used almost a decade as a basement pump.

I was just showing you how much cash you could save if you went DC.

I need reliability and have a Iwaki for backup if needed, so it doesn't do me any harm in using a return pump that pulls 55W instead of 160.

Zalick · 02/09/2018, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outy

Or is 9.8 on average at 10 kwh the yearly rate is $96 your math is off

jebao is only $39

You seriously like telling people they are wrong.

I plugged the watts in to my power company website which has a calculator. I trust them in calculating their own rates over your unsourced data.

outy · 02/10/2018, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalick

You. I trust them in calculating their own rates over your unsourced data.

I don't like dishonest people. What are OP's rates?

Quote:

https://www.electricitylocal.com/states/oregon/

Residential electricity rates in Oregon average 9.8¢/kWh,

Sourced.

john fidler · 02/10/2018, 11:48 AM

Not to keep stirring the pot, but:

About 19 cents/kWh (including delivery charges). Welcome to NJ.

Zalick · 02/10/2018, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outy

I don't like dishonest people. What are OP's rates?

Sourced.

Electricity Local? That's your source?

Try my actual power company: Portland General Electric. https://www.portlandgeneral.com/resi...use-calculator

02/09/2018, 11:06 AM	#1
john fidler Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hammonton, NJ Posts: 370	Return Pump Hi, I'm in the process of setting up a new 75 gal system (to replace my old 75 gal system - incorporating lessons learned). Trying to decide on a return pump. Looking to get about 500-600gph at about 5 feet of head. I currently run a MAG12 (which honestly I have had no problems with for over 5 years) and I have another new MAG12 that I was thinking of using for the new tank (I would be teeing off for a sump fuge and can also valve it down if need be to reduce output). My only concern with the MAG12 is energy efficiency and maybe noise (although to me it doesn't seem that bad). Should I just use the MAG12 or what would you recommend in lieu of a MAG12? Not really sure I'm interested in DC pumps since I don't quite understand the advantage for a return pump. Unless, you guys convince me I'm thinking old school or just wrong. Cost is of a concern (like to keep it around $200 or less), but I'm looking more for reliability and energy efficiency so willing to go a little higher if need be. Thanks for any replies/thoughts. John

02/09/2018, 11:14 AM	#2
HBtank Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 2,957	While I don't think a DC pump is a must have, the advantages are: At the pressures we work with DC generally uses less watts/flow. Being able to tune the flow to your overflow and sump can let you gain even more efficiency, and potentially a quieter system, over a "single setting" AC pump. On the flip side, I have found being able to turn the rate up for short periods to be nice, throw on a sock and blow off the rocks... makes for a nice angle on cleaning. But they are not as reliable as most proven AC pumps, I have some AC pumps that literally could care less about cleaning and are 15+ years old. Most are finding DC reliability acceptable though and using them; I personally have never considered a return pump (or design a system that made it so) to be critical withstanding being gone for very long periods (and then every piece is critical). __________________ 80g Aiptasia dominated reef tank.. with fish and now a bunch of berghia! Current Tank Info: 80g tank, re-starting a reef after a zoanthid nudibranch plauge, followed by months of steady and unstoppable STN/RTN, crashed; stayed FOWLR for a couple years, currently an aiptasia dominated reef tank with fishies and BERGHIA

02/09/2018, 11:19 AM	#3
LQT Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Fairfield, CT Posts: 1,516	For an AC pump, I’d look at the Fluval SP line, either the SP2 @ 950gph at a max of 12’ of head or SP4 at 1822gph at a max of 12’ of head. Built like a tank with an Askoll motor block, super quiet and energy efficient. Personally, I’d go SP4 for the extra capacity and dial it back with a gate valve. In doing so, you’ll also gain energy savings. __________________ - Leon (aka - Water Dog) Deep Blue 57 Edge ATI Acro Garden Build Thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25573384#post25573384 Current Tank Info: DeepBlue 57 Edge

02/09/2018, 01:16 PM	#10
LQT Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Fairfield, CT Posts: 1,516	A Fluval SP4 running on full blast a 0 head is rated at 88 watts. Running at full blast on a 24” Lifereef skimmer, it runs at 50 watts when measured with a Kill-A-Watt. My guess is that throttled back with a gate valve for the OP’s flow needs on his 75 gallon tank, the SP4 would run at even less than 50 watts. __________________ - Leon (aka - Water Dog) Deep Blue 57 Edge ATI Acro Garden Build Thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25573384#post25573384 Current Tank Info: DeepBlue 57 Edge

02/09/2018, 01:42 PM	#13
LQT Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Fairfield, CT Posts: 1,516	Running through a venturi on a Lifereef is nothing like running on a closed loop. There is an incredible amount of pressure involved. In fact, Jeff of Lifereef recommends pressure rated Blueline pumps for his skimmers when run externally. He personally runs a Mag 18 on his 24” Lifereef. The OP asked for a recommendation on an AC pump. Throttled back for his flow needs, I am very confident that the SP4 will run at less than 50 watts. A German AC pump with an Askoll motor block = reliability, efficiency & longevity. __________________ - Leon (aka - Water Dog) Deep Blue 57 Edge ATI Acro Garden Build Thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25573384#post25573384 Current Tank Info: DeepBlue 57 Edge

02/09/2018, 11:31 AM	#4
john fidler Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hammonton, NJ Posts: 370	HBtank, Thanks for the insight. I'm designing redundancy into both the sump and tank in term so heat and flow, so I also don't consider the return pump to be super critical. LQT, Thanks, I'll look into the Fluval pumps. John

02/09/2018, 11:39 AM	#7
john fidler Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hammonton, NJ Posts: 370	Zalick, Good point about recouping any savings. Thanks.

02/09/2018, 03:36 PM	#19
john fidler Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hammonton, NJ Posts: 370	Guys, Sorry, didn't mean to stir up a debate on the merits of AC vs DC pumps and various brands. To be clear, my first main goal for the pump was reliability followed by energy efficiency. While it seems obvious there are more energy efficient pumps than the MAG12 I already have, my own experience in running one has been positive from strictly a reliability issue. Don't know if there is any real statistical data (not anecdotal) on the reliability of various brands of pumps, and I'm not even sure DC pumps have been around long enough to have meaningful data (i.e., no offense to anyone, "long enough" to me is more than 2 or 3 years). For now, and since I already have it still NIB, I'll plan on using the MAG12 until I can look into all the options. Thanks to everyone for chiming in, though.

02/10/2018, 11:48 AM	#24
john fidler Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hammonton, NJ Posts: 370	Not to keep stirring the pot, but: About 19 cents/kWh (including delivery charges). Welcome to NJ.