Refgium question

hammertime55 · 04/29/2018, 04:25 PM

I have a 75 gal tank with 6 fish and 3 softie corals, lots of snails and some crabs. Tank has been running about 2 months. Was battling high nitrates. Finally got it down to just not so good levels, 15 ppm with 2 ea 32 gal water changes within 1 week. I started at 40.

Now I want to get this lower with a refgium in my sump. The current sump configuration is 32" wide, 18" tall and 12" front to back. The input section is 6.5" wide and has 16" deep water level. The next section is the protein skimmer area which is 18" wide. The water level is about 4" deep. The return area is 8.5" wide with a 4" water level also.

The flow runs over the top of the divider from section 1 into section 2. The flow from section 2 into section 3 is at the bottom of that divider.

My question: Can I place the skimmer in section 1 if I raise it up so that is in only 4" depth of water? That would leave all of the 18" wide section to have as a refgium. Is that enough space and water level for a refgium for 75 gal tank?

If that doesn't work, got any other ideas?https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed7cf1spc5rog9z/sump.jpg?dl=0

mcgyvr · 04/29/2018, 08:37 PM

A skimmer needs to be placed somewhere that the water level is concistent and its height matches the water level requirement for that skimmer

amccann · 04/30/2018, 01:29 PM

My question to you first would be, Why do you want to have the Refugium? Do you have fish that need Copepods, such as a Mandarin or Wrasses? In my experience, Refugiums are highly over rated. There are plenty of ways to keep your nitrates down. You can place liverock or Marine Pure (what I use) in the Skimmer section, along with your Protein Skimmer. I have a lot of Amphipods and Copepods that live in this liverock section. Refugiums, with a deep sandbed and area for Macroalgae to grow, along with the lighting that is necessary, it takes up a lot of space for one that actually is able to "reduce" Nitrates. Your BEST method for exporting Nitrates is your Protein Skimmer, a LiveRock area where beneficial bacteria, pods and other creatures can florish, and weekly water changes (while also keeping your fish feeding under check). Just my 2 cents.

themagicman · 04/30/2018, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amccann

My question to you first would be, Why do you want to have the Refugium? Do you have fish that need Copepods, such as a Mandarin or Wrasses? In my experience, Refugiums are highly over rated.

+1

We all want another tank, (no doubt) but keep the focus up top, not down below.

mcgyvr · 05/01/2018, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hammertime55

Was battling high nitrates.....

Now I want to get this lower with a refgium in my sump.

They already stated why they want a refugium..
To lower nitrates..

hammertime55 · 05/01/2018, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

They already stated why they want a refugium..
To lower nitrates..

I really don't WANT one at all. But I do need to get the nitrates in check before I can go to the next step which is introducing some corals. In time I think my tank will balance out. I'm learning the hard way and from awesome advice that I get here.

I had posted this thread because I was hoping to get some advice on developing a refugium in the existing sump space that I currently have. Moving the skimmer was an option that I was exploring but after researching more I have decided to just add some LR and chateo with a grow light to the chamber that has the skimmer in it. Maybe I will partition that off with some egg crate to keep the chateo from getting too close to the water inlet of the skimmer.

hammertime55 · 05/01/2018, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amccann

My question to you first would be, Why do you want to have the Refugium? Do you have fish that need Copepods, such as a Mandarin or Wrasses? In my experience, Refugiums are highly over rated. There are plenty of ways to keep your nitrates down. You can place liverock or Marine Pure (what I use) in the Skimmer section, along with your Protein Skimmer. I have a lot of Amphipods and Copepods that live in this liverock section. Refugiums, with a deep sandbed and area for Macroalgae to grow, along with the lighting that is necessary, it takes up a lot of space for one that actually is able to "reduce" Nitrates. Your BEST method for exporting Nitrates is your Protein Skimmer, a LiveRock area where beneficial bacteria, pods and other creatures can florish, and weekly water changes (while also keeping your fish feeding under check). Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the advice. That's kinda where I'm leanig too. Instead of a true "Refugium" just adding some LR and Chateo to the skimmer section along with a grow light to keep it thriving.

I am already doing weekly 10% water changes and last week did 2 each 32 gallon changes.

mcgyvr · 05/01/2018, 12:03 PM

If you don't want one then don't add one..
At 2 months old a tank is not mature and the bacterial population (denitrifying bacteria specifically) has not been given time to get established..
No one needs a macro fuge to be successful.. That may just mean doing more water changes for now..

You have a few options though beyond that..
1-Just Wait.. In time the bacterial population will likely increase and nitrates should be much easier to manage.. I personally find that around the 8 month mark tanks (started with dry rock anyways) get much easier to manage..
2-Look into carbon dosing.. This can help boost/fuel the current bacterial colonies and can work wonders on keeping nitrates and phosphates low..

Nitrates of 15ppm for the most part is not a problem with most corals and as long as you can keep it there you are likely fine.. Some tanks run higher than that without any problems at all.. I personally have only found nitrates over 10ppm to be too much for sps/acro corals but others have run higher than that without issue..

So maybe just keep working on keeping them there or lowering them slightly with water changes and see how to tank "matures" and hold off on the macro fuge for now..

You certainly do not need to do a fuge though..

amccann · 05/01/2018, 12:24 PM

I use Marine Pure blocks, stacking a couple under my Skimmer. It's easy to clean when I want to clean the sump, allows the beneficial bacteria to thrive and also a nice home for Pods to breed and grow. Another poster mentioned Carbon Dosing. I Dose Vodka and have done so for years. I literally have a bottle of 100 Proof cheap Vodka with a line going to a Bulk Reef Supply 1.1ml Dosing pump. I have this on my Apex to dose every afternoon for 2 minutes. This will establish the bacteria and maintain it that will eat of your nitrates in the water column. My Nitrates are always well under 2 to 3, usually 0. I only do a 10% water change about every 2 weeks. Dosing Vodka is also a great conversation starter when your Guests ask why your getting your Fish drunk.

hammertime55 · 05/01/2018, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

If you don't want one then don't add one..
At 2 months old a tank is not mature and the bacterial population (denitrifying bacteria specifically) has not been given time to get established..
No one needs a macro fuge to be successful.. That may just mean doing more water changes for now..

You have a few options though beyond that..
1-Just Wait.. In time the bacterial population will likely increase and nitrates should be much easier to manage.. I personally find that around the 8 month mark tanks (started with dry rock anyways) get much easier to manage..
2-Look into carbon dosing.. This can help boost/fuel the current bacterial colonies and can work wonders on keeping nitrates and phosphates low..

Nitrates of 15ppm for the most part is not a problem with most corals and as long as you can keep it there you are likely fine.. Some tanks run higher than that without any problems at all.. I personally have only found nitrates over 10ppm to be too much for sps/acro corals but others have run higher than that without issue..

So maybe just keep working on keeping them there or lowering them slightly with water changes and see how to tank "matures" and hold off on the macro fuge for now..

You certainly do not need to do a fuge though..

OK so I will take your advice. This tank was bought used with about 100 lbs of thriving LR. We transferred it using 32 gallon trash cans filled with the water that was in the tank. I also started with about 30 gallons of his water So.....I thought I had skipped the new tank setup stage. Lesson learned, I probaly just inherited his problems hince most likely why he was selling it.

I just did a 15 gallon change which is what I normally do almost weekly. I think I skipped 1 week during the 2 months its been running.

I will continue to do the water changes and I will research the carbon dosing. I bought some chemclean to help with the red slime I got going on but after reading the precautions I have not used it. Any advice on that?

hammertime55 · 05/01/2018, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amccann

I use Marine Pure blocks, stacking a couple under my Skimmer. It's easy to clean when I want to clean the sump, allows the beneficial bacteria to thrive and also a nice home for Pods to breed and grow. Another poster mentioned Carbon Dosing. I Dose Vodka and have done so for years. I literally have a bottle of 100 Proof cheap Vodka with a line going to a Bulk Reef Supply 1.1ml Dosing pump. I have this on my Apex to dose every afternoon for 2 minutes. This will establish the bacteria and maintain it that will eat of your nitrates in the water column. My Nitrates are always well under 2 to 3, usually 0. I only do a 10% water change about every 2 weeks. Dosing Vodka is also a great conversation starter when your Guests ask why your getting your Fish drunk.

Is this a good guidline to vodka dosing? http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

hammertime55 · 05/01/2018, 01:39 PM

Is this the dosing pump I need for vodka dosing? Anything else?https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-2...er-minute.html

mcgyvr · 05/01/2018, 01:44 PM

I'd recommend vinegar over vodka..
Does the same thing for the most part and seems to be less a chance of having a cyano problem due to its usage.. Cheaper too I believe.. Also far less chance of you sampling it

Chart for vinegar is here..
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....arine-aquarium

and yes that doser will work just fine..

homer1475 · 05/01/2018, 01:45 PM

That dosing pump will work fine in conjunction with a timer of some sort.

I would not jump right into carbon dosing and buying a dosing pump. Let your tank mature, it's only 2 months old. WC's should work just fine for now. 15ppm is fine for softies and most LPS corals. They actually prefer a little "dirtier" water(higher levels of po4 and no3).

You can kill your corals by starving them by overdoing the carbon dosing. or kill your fish with a bacterial bloom which depletes the oxygen by carbon dosing. I would do quite a bit of reading before you consider it.

Louis Z · 05/01/2018, 11:02 PM

Was there a lot of sand with the aquarium . I find that vaccuming it seems to remove a lot of fine sediment (fluff) from it and avoids a detritus sink from developing and causing nitrates to spike . Did it come with a skimmer? Did it come with filter socks . Those need to be cleaned often .

hammertime55 · 05/02/2018, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Z

Was there a lot of sand with the aquarium . I find that vaccuming it seems to remove a lot of fine sediment (fluff) from it and avoids a detritus sink from developing and causing nitrates to spike . Did it come with a skimmer? Did it come with filter socks . Those need to be cleaned often .

Cme with sand which I cleaned throughly before using and mixed with new sand. Came with a protein skimmer which I cleaned throughly before using. However....I didn't clean it for a month and had it running at a very low setting which I now know was a big mistake. I turned it to a high setting about 2 weeks ago along with big water changes and it has gotten better. Your right about the vacumming the sand. I have done that a couple times at water changes and will do more often than not when I change water.

No filter socks. Just protein skimmer and alot of flow. Running w Jabeo SW-8's on wave1 at mid level speed. Keeps the water moving really good.

In retrospect I think I inherited someone else's problems using the live sand, live water and live rock. Should have started from scratch and a clean slate. That's ok though I'm working through this and will get it under control with all this great knowledge I get from this forum. Thanks a ton!

Louis Z · 05/02/2018, 11:34 PM

I still think you are ok with this setup . You will come to realize that just one more of something will get you in a better place . Some don’t like filter socks but I do as long as I clean them - they filter out a lot of fine detritus . So I suggest you plan on chaetomorpha and maybe add an algae scrubber in addition to it . Try the vinegar or vodka and see what happens . Yes we all want more tanks under the display tank . I would like to try a mineral mud refugium with red and green algae just to see if I can increase the pods and mysis shrimp. There is never a dull moment with this hobby .

04/29/2018, 04:25 PM	#1
hammertime55 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 31	Refgium question I have a 75 gal tank with 6 fish and 3 softie corals, lots of snails and some crabs. Tank has been running about 2 months. Was battling high nitrates. Finally got it down to just not so good levels, 15 ppm with 2 ea 32 gal water changes within 1 week. I started at 40. Now I want to get this lower with a refgium in my sump. The current sump configuration is 32" wide, 18" tall and 12" front to back. The input section is 6.5" wide and has 16" deep water level. The next section is the protein skimmer area which is 18" wide. The water level is about 4" deep. The return area is 8.5" wide with a 4" water level also. The flow runs over the top of the divider from section 1 into section 2. The flow from section 2 into section 3 is at the bottom of that divider. My question: Can I place the skimmer in section 1 if I raise it up so that is in only 4" depth of water? That would leave all of the 18" wide section to have as a refgium. Is that enough space and water level for a refgium for 75 gal tank? If that doesn't work, got any other ideas?https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed7cf1spc5rog9z/sump.jpg?dl=0

04/29/2018, 08:37 PM	#2
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	A skimmer needs to be placed somewhere that the water level is concistent and its height matches the water level requirement for that skimmer __________________ Who me?

05/01/2018, 12:03 PM	#8
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	If you don't want one then don't add one.. At 2 months old a tank is not mature and the bacterial population (denitrifying bacteria specifically) has not been given time to get established.. No one needs a macro fuge to be successful.. That may just mean doing more water changes for now.. You have a few options though beyond that.. 1-Just Wait.. In time the bacterial population will likely increase and nitrates should be much easier to manage.. I personally find that around the 8 month mark tanks (started with dry rock anyways) get much easier to manage.. 2-Look into carbon dosing.. This can help boost/fuel the current bacterial colonies and can work wonders on keeping nitrates and phosphates low.. Nitrates of 15ppm for the most part is not a problem with most corals and as long as you can keep it there you are likely fine.. Some tanks run higher than that without any problems at all.. I personally have only found nitrates over 10ppm to be too much for sps/acro corals but others have run higher than that without issue.. So maybe just keep working on keeping them there or lowering them slightly with water changes and see how to tank "matures" and hold off on the macro fuge for now.. You certainly do not need to do a fuge though.. __________________ Who me?

05/01/2018, 01:44 PM	#13
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	I'd recommend vinegar over vodka.. Does the same thing for the most part and seems to be less a chance of having a cyano problem due to its usage.. Cheaper too I believe.. Also far less chance of you sampling it Chart for vinegar is here.. http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....arine-aquarium and yes that doser will work just fine.. __________________ Who me?

05/01/2018, 01:45 PM	#14
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	That dosing pump will work fine in conjunction with a timer of some sort. I would not jump right into carbon dosing and buying a dosing pump. Let your tank mature, it's only 2 months old. WC's should work just fine for now. 15ppm is fine for softies and most LPS corals. They actually prefer a little "dirtier" water(higher levels of po4 and no3). You can kill your corals by starving them by overdoing the carbon dosing. or kill your fish with a bacterial bloom which depletes the oxygen by carbon dosing. I would do quite a bit of reading before you consider it. __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

04/30/2018, 01:29 PM	#3
amccann Registered Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Queen Creek, AZ Posts: 37	My question to you first would be, Why do you want to have the Refugium? Do you have fish that need Copepods, such as a Mandarin or Wrasses? In my experience, Refugiums are highly over rated. There are plenty of ways to keep your nitrates down. You can place liverock or Marine Pure (what I use) in the Skimmer section, along with your Protein Skimmer. I have a lot of Amphipods and Copepods that live in this liverock section. Refugiums, with a deep sandbed and area for Macroalgae to grow, along with the lighting that is necessary, it takes up a lot of space for one that actually is able to "reduce" Nitrates. Your BEST method for exporting Nitrates is your Protein Skimmer, a LiveRock area where beneficial bacteria, pods and other creatures can florish, and weekly water changes (while also keeping your fish feeding under check). Just my 2 cents.

05/01/2018, 12:24 PM	#9
amccann Registered Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Queen Creek, AZ Posts: 37	I use Marine Pure blocks, stacking a couple under my Skimmer. It's easy to clean when I want to clean the sump, allows the beneficial bacteria to thrive and also a nice home for Pods to breed and grow. Another poster mentioned Carbon Dosing. I Dose Vodka and have done so for years. I literally have a bottle of 100 Proof cheap Vodka with a line going to a Bulk Reef Supply 1.1ml Dosing pump. I have this on my Apex to dose every afternoon for 2 minutes. This will establish the bacteria and maintain it that will eat of your nitrates in the water column. My Nitrates are always well under 2 to 3, usually 0. I only do a 10% water change about every 2 weeks. Dosing Vodka is also a great conversation starter when your Guests ask why your getting your Fish drunk.

05/01/2018, 01:39 PM	#12
hammertime55 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 31	Is this the dosing pump I need for vodka dosing? Anything else?https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-2...er-minute.html

05/01/2018, 11:02 PM	#15
Louis Z Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Montgomery Posts: 1,257	Was there a lot of sand with the aquarium . I find that vaccuming it seems to remove a lot of fine sediment (fluff) from it and avoids a detritus sink from developing and causing nitrates to spike . Did it come with a skimmer? Did it come with filter socks . Those need to be cleaned often .

05/02/2018, 11:34 PM	#17
Louis Z Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Montgomery Posts: 1,257	I still think you are ok with this setup . You will come to realize that just one more of something will get you in a better place . Some don’t like filter socks but I do as long as I clean them - they filter out a lot of fine detritus . So I suggest you plan on chaetomorpha and maybe add an algae scrubber in addition to it . Try the vinegar or vodka and see what happens . Yes we all want more tanks under the display tank . I would like to try a mineral mud refugium with red and green algae just to see if I can increase the pods and mysis shrimp. There is never a dull moment with this hobby .