Dilemma of adding disease to your tank

[FishNDip]

So I'm setting up my 36 gal fish tank with a 10 gal sump, tank has been on a cycle for 2 weeks, no traces of ammonia, the tank also has 35- 40 pounds of live rock with a marine pure block in the sump. I plan to put all new fish in qt, for ich, because I've had trouble with ich in the past. Here's my dilemma I haven't figure out yet. Let's say I put In a bubble tip, and a clean up crew, while I have my fish in qt. That way any ich that carriers over with the nem or clean up crew dies off in a month. The trouble is down the road I want to get a starfish, or trade some coral, etc... I can set up an expensive qt for my coral sure, but what about a hard to keep animal like a starfish? So how do you guys handle the risk of putting new critters (not fish) in your tank?

[Bpb]

Might be reckless advice but ich maintenance is far easier and more realistic than pure ich eradication. But you answered it. Quarantine literally everything that will enter your tank for 6 weeks.


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[FishNDip]

Originally Posted by Bpb

Might be reckless advice but ich maintenance is far easier and more realistic than pure ich eradication. But you answered it. Quarantine literally everything that will enter your tank for 6 weeks.


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Yeah That's probably true, but in the pass I've had ich wipe out all my fish! So I'm very nervous about it now. Ich prevention is what exactly? Regular water changes, and frequent feedings?

[Bpb]

Generally promoting very healthy fish. Fish that are fat, well fed a good diet, stocking levels and territories that reduce stress, impeccable water quality. Some fish are flat out more sensitive to it though.


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[FishNDip]

Yeah I had a tang at the time, so that could have attributed. Still I'm going to qt all my new fish, and hope no ich rides on the coral or anything. If an outburst appears I'll just put all my fish in a qt and copper treat them.

[sde1500]

I can't be bothered to QT every snail or coral I put in my tank. Is there a risk? Sure there is, but I consider it small enough to be ok.

[FishNDip]

Originally Posted by sde1500

I can't be bothered to QT every snail or coral I put in my tank. Is there a risk? Sure there is, but I consider it small enough to be ok.

I guess that's kinda what I'm coming to terms with. Unless I go through pain taking process for every little thing I add in my tank, there will always be a risk. At least I know how to handle ich if it every comes again.

[2_zoa]

Maybe this will make up your mind for you.

True ich eradication happens at 76 days. Not a month and not 6 weeks. A full 76 days is required.

Just want to make sure the true time frame is put ou there since the wrong time frames have been stated.

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by Bpb

Might be reckless advice but ich maintenance is far easier and more realistic than pure ich eradication. But you answered it. Quarantine literally everything that will enter your tank for 6 weeks.


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that's extremely reckless advice and not really applicable to all but the smallest and simplest of systems.

i can only imagine the absolute horror of trying to tear down my tank and remove sick fish for treatment. it would be pure insanity.

to the OP, QT is risk mitigation. so you have to decide on what is an acceptable level of risk for you and your tank. keep in mind, that ich is not the nastiest disease that can rip through your tank. get a case of brook or uronema and you'll likely be wishing it was ich.

i dip all corals, i QT some corals if i'm worried about where they've been. i also try to remove any frag plugs or anything that could be harboring cysts.

inverts i QT, but not for as long or as stringently as fish. both these are fairly low risk items, as they're not direct vectors for most infectious diseases, but would rather end up as an accidental carrier in some cases.

fish all get heavily QT'd. it's just not worth it.

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by 2_zoa

Maybe this will make up your mind for you.

True ich eradication happens at 76 days. Not a month and not 6 weeks. A full 76 days is required.

Just want to make sure the true time frame is put ou there since the wrong time frames have been stated.

this is only true when using a fallow period as your only eradication mechanism. if you're using TTM or other techniques, this number can vary.

[2_zoa]

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

this is only true when using a fallow period as your only eradication mechanism. if you're using TTM or other techniques, this number can vary.

I was speaking to a true eradication and not for just fish. One isn’t going to use copper or hypo on inverts.

As you said. You consider it to be a minimum risk for your inverts to not go through a full strict QT period. Therefore the system will always be at some sort of risk. Small to you, larger to others.

[homer1475]

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

that's extremely reckless advice and not really applicable to all but the smallest and simplest of systems.

i can only imagine the absolute horror of trying to tear down my tank and remove sick fish for treatment. it would be pure insanity.

to the OP, QT is risk mitigation. so you have to decide on what is an acceptable level of risk for you and your tank. keep in mind, that ich is not the nastiest disease that can rip through your tank. get a case of brook or uronema and you'll likely be wishing it was ich.

i dip all corals, i QT some corals if i'm worried about where they've been. i also try to remove any frag plugs or anything that could be harboring cysts.

inverts i QT, but not for as long or as stringently as fish. both these are fairly low risk items, as they're not direct vectors for most infectious diseases, but would rather end up as an accidental carrier in some cases.

fish all get heavily QT'd. it's just not worth it.

Agree 100%

As far as corals go, most people that sell corals are selling them out of a fishless frag system, so the risk is minimal. I also remove plugs where applicable, and QT anything I think might be questionable.

Snails can certainly carry ich into your system, but they are hard to QT so it's a risk I'm willing to take.


Ask me why I currently have no fish.......Hint, it involves a replenishment order of snails.

[FishNDip]

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

that's extremely reckless advice and not really applicable to all but the smallest and simplest of systems.

i can only imagine the absolute horror of trying to tear down my tank and remove sick fish for treatment. it would be pure insanity.

to the OP, QT is risk mitigation. so you have to decide on what is an acceptable level of risk for you and your tank. keep in mind, that ich is not the nastiest disease that can rip through your tank. get a case of brook or uronema and you'll likely be wishing it was ich.

i dip all corals, i QT some corals if i'm worried about where they've been. i also try to remove any frag plugs or anything that could be harboring cysts.

inverts i QT, but not for as long or as stringently as fish. both these are fairly low risk items, as they're not direct vectors for most infectious diseases, but would rather end up as an accidental carrier in some cases.

fish all get heavily QT'd. it's just not worth it.

Yep MondoBongo has the most comprehensive plan. I think I'll follow those steps. Thanks for the replies all.

[Doubledog]

I feel like ich isn't a problem if you stay away from those fish that are known to be very prone to it.

[2_zoa]

Originally Posted by FishNDip

Yep MondoBongo has the most comprehensive plan. I think I'll follow those steps. Thanks for the replies all.

Define comprehensive in your terms please.


It seems to me that the message in this thread (besides my comment) is, that QTing fish is what’s important. Inverts can be added based on a gut feel.

Is this accurate?


Here’s my rationale to this. Wether coral is sold from a fish less system or not is a false sense of security. I can put coral in a fish less system hours before I sell it. The simple fact is, fish less system doesn’t mean pest or disease free.
Second, if this is how one thinks. Why even bother using a QT for fish? You go through all that trouble just so you can risk it based on a gut feel? Why bother? Just do as the wreckless adviser stated. Feed heavy and run UV on the system. Disease maintenance. Be done and accept any loss incurred.
For crying out loud, homer1475 just laid out the risk in black and white. Tank loss because of clean up crew. Hello?
What really is there to believe that the risk is any lower adding a shrimp, rock, sand, etc. from any system that you don’t oversee personally?
Other fish disease can absolutely be introduced into a system, not to mention other things we don’t want.
Clean up crew, I bought a clean up crew that went into QT only to wind up with hydroids. Damn glad I’m one who uses a proper QT regimen.
Rant over.

Good luck to all of you. Seriously............From the bottom of my heart.......I wish you the best of luck. I got away with it for years. Then I got tired of chasing issues within my display. Now I deal with them on a much smaller scale and enjoy all my hard work that much more.

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by 2_zoa

Define comprehensive in your terms please.


It seems to me that the message in this thread (besides my comment) is, that QTing fish is what’s important. Inverts can be added based on a gut feel.

that doesn't represent what i said.

inverts in my systems get some QT, usually 2 - 8 weeks in a fishless system. length depends on various factors. the longer you go, the better the probability of eradication.

since TTM wouldn't really work on things that aren't fish, and you can't dip things like snails and crabs, this is about the best you can do.

i forget the exact math for timelines, but somewhere around the 5th week you have a good probability that most diseases would have petered out. given that my LFS where i buy my CUC uses a separate fish-free system for their inverts, 5 weeks gives me a reasonable level of confidence. i like to go longer, but sometimes the reality is that i can't.

[FishNDip]

Originally Posted by 2_zoa

Define comprehensive in your terms please.


It seems to me that the message in this thread (besides my comment) is, that QTing fish is what’s important. Inverts can be added based on a gut feel.

Is this accurate?


Here’s my rationale to this. Wether coral is sold from a fish less system or not is a false sense of security. I can put coral in a fish less system hours before I sell it. The simple fact is, fish less system doesn’t mean pest or disease free.
Second, if this is how one thinks. Why even bother using a QT for fish? You go through all that trouble just so you can risk it based on a gut feel? Why bother? Just do as the wreckless adviser stated. Feed heavy and run UV on the system. Disease maintenance. Be done and accept any loss incurred.
For crying out loud, homer1475 just laid out the risk in black and white. Tank loss because of clean up crew. Hello?
What really is there to believe that the risk is any lower adding a shrimp, rock, sand, etc. from any system that you don’t oversee personally?
Other fish disease can absolutely be introduced into a system, not to mention other things we don’t want.
Clean up crew, I bought a clean up crew that went into QT only to wind up with hydroids. Damn glad I’m one who uses a proper QT regimen.
Rant over.

Good luck to all of you. Seriously............From the bottom of my heart.......I wish you the best of luck. I got away with it for years. Then I got tired of chasing issues within my display. Now I deal with them on a much smaller scale and enjoy all my hard work that much more.

You asked for the definition of comprehensive.
"complete; including all or nearly all elements or aspects of something."
The reason I said MondoBongo plan was the best, is because he had a strategy. Qt all fish and inverts, dip coral, and QT any coral your unsure of. Is that not a good plan?

[2_zoa]

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

that doesn't represent what i said.

inverts in my systems get some QT, usually 2 - 8 weeks in a fishless system. length depends on various factors. the longer you go, the better the probability of eradication. I agree. The longer one goes the better. While going the full term being the best. While I can’t say that my LFS uses a fishless system for CUC. Can you say that you LFS has very clear time frames on that systems additions? If not, then like I said. I can add coral or even inverts to a fishless system hours or even minutes before I sell from it. In my opinion, labeling a system as a fishless system means nothing. It does give some a false sense of security though.

since TTM wouldn't really work on things that aren't fish, and you can't dip things like snails and crabs, this is about the best you can do. So long as one goes full term of QT, that is the best one can do. There is only one goal, otherwise one falls short.

i forget the exact math for timelines, but somewhere around the 5th week you have a good probability that most diseases would have petered out. given that my LFS where i buy my CUC uses a separate fish-free system for their inverts, 5 weeks gives me a reasonable level of confidence. i like to go longer, but sometimes the reality is that i can't.I can’t recall those numbers right now either. I do know exactly what your talking about though. However, there is one thing for sue. Anything less than the full duration leaves risk. As I already mentioned. This thread really comes down to the amount of risk that any aquarist is willing to take. The unfortunate truth to this is, a great majority of the aquarists that are willing to risk it in the moment. Are the ones that post threads about disease in their tank stating that they quarantine their live stock. Now I must ask, if you have a QT and you have a CUC or whatever invert in there. Why is it that you can’t go a full duration?

Originally Posted by FishNDip

You asked for the definition of comprehensive.
"complete; including all or nearly all elements or aspects of something."
i asked for your definition of comprehensive. Not Webster’s. Which you did give. Thank you.
The reason I said MondoBongo plan was the best, is because he had a strategy. Qt all fish and inverts, dip coral, and QT any coral your unsure of. Is that not a good plan?No, in my opinion that’s not a good plan. The reoccurring theme of what I’m promoting is to go full term on the QT periods. Reguardless of the source of anything that will go inside your tank. Is that not a good strategy also?

[FishNDip]

Originally Posted by 2_zoa

No, in my opinion that’s not a good plan. The reoccurring theme of what I’m promoting is to go full term on the QT periods. Reguardless of the source of anything that will go inside your tank. Is that not a good strategy also?

In theory that's a very good strategy, but the problem is most people don't have full QT systems that are just as good as their system. Take me for example, if i wanted to QT my starfish for the full QT timeline I would have to setup a complete tank, fully established that can keep a hard to care for critter like a starfish.

[manilaboy1vic]

Originally Posted by sde1500

I can't be bothered to QT every snail or coral I put in my tank. Is there a risk? Sure there is, but I consider it small enough to be ok.

same here, thats seems like alot of work.. i have never QT'd anything, even when i got a kole tang.. guess im just lucky..


i think i only had ich once when i first started out with a freshwater 10g tank..

i recently just got some new fish after i took my kole back to the LFS...

i aclimated it in the bag in the tank for like 10mins.. added some water from my tank and put them in.. they are still alive and disease free.. (BIG TIME KNOCKING ON WOOD RIGHT NOW)

[2_zoa]

Originally Posted by FishNDip

In theory that's a very good strategy, but the problem is most people don't have full QT systems that are just as good as their system. Take me for example, if i wanted to QT my starfish for the full QT timeline I would have to setup a complete tank, fully established that can keep a hard to care for critter like a starfish.

A starfish in the 36 gallon tank you referenced in the beginning of the thread?
What sort of starfish?

[FishNDip]

Originally Posted by 2_zoa

A starfish in the 36 gallon tank you referenced in the beginning of the thread?
What sort of starfish?

Planning on getting a fromia starfish.

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by 2_zoa

I can’t recall those numbers right now either. I do know exactly what your talking about though. However, there is one thing for sue. Anything less than the full duration leaves risk. As I already mentioned. This thread really comes down to the amount of risk that any aquarist is willing to take. The unfortunate truth to this is, a great majority of the aquarists that are willing to risk it in the moment. Are the ones that post threads about disease in their tank stating that they quarantine their live stock. Now I must ask, if you have a QT and you have a CUC or whatever invert in there. Why is it that you can’t go a full duration?

even full duration still carries with it some risks.

there's various reasons i wouldn't go "full duration" on certain low risk items. usually it just comes down to practicality and logistics. my QT doesn't stay up all the time. it's also limited on space. so if i want to bring something new in, or have an equipment failure, or have to break down the QT tank for some other reason.

it's always something i'm evaluating, and it changes based on the situation and my confidence level in the length of time they've been in there.

another consideration is animal health. i know that corals, particularly SPS, do not do well in my QT tanks. even with a high level of attention, it's usually not a good spot for them. so in those cases i do take a calculated risk that SOME time in QT, and a couple dips, will provide me a reasonable level of risk mitigation. i've also had issues with snails making it through a full duration of QT before. sometimes those longer lengths of time in a tank that isn't as a stable a system can lead to heavy losses.

if i had all the money and all the space and all the time in the world, things would be different. but occasionally you need to make trade offs based on real world situations. protect yourself the best you can. the more steps you can take, the better.

[2_zoa]

Originally Posted by FishNDip

Planning on getting a fromia starfish.

You should have the best luck with the formia species.

I’m not sure your tank will really be much different than a QT in terms of long term success. If supplemental feeding is going to keep it alive, that can be done in QT.

We all do what we think and feel is the best, based on many factors. I wish you good luck on your journey.

[2_zoa]

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

even full duration still carries with it some risks.

there's various reasons i wouldn't go "full duration" on certain low risk items. usually it just comes down to practicality and logistics. my QT doesn't stay up all the time. it's also limited on space. so if i want to bring something new in, or have an equipment failure, or have to break down the QT tank for some other reason.

it's always something i'm evaluating, and it changes based on the situation and my confidence level in the length of time they've been in there.

another consideration is animal health. i know that corals, particularly SPS, do not do well in my QT tanks. even with a high level of attention, it's usually not a good spot for them. so in those cases i do take a calculated risk that SOME time in QT, and a couple dips, will provide me a reasonable level of risk mitigation. i've also had issues with snails making it through a full duration of QT before. sometimes those longer lengths of time in a tank that isn't as a stable a system can lead to heavy losses.

if i had all the money and all the space and all the time in the world, things would be different. but occasionally you need to make trade offs based on real world situations. protect yourself the best you can. the more steps you can take, the better.

I suppose full duration will carry some risk. After all. The 76 days is based off one study and laboratory conditions. Which had the cyst in a flask with no bacteria in the water attacking it. Etc etc.... no one really knows what life is capable of. Other than amazing things.

I made the decision when I setup my new tank that I wouldn’t do all the things I’ve done in the past that has caused me grief. So I have a fully setup QT that has the same lights over it as my display. It’s not a large tank. A 20 gallon IM with a small amount of rock and even a sand bed. It’s an invert only QT. I buy and cycle through inverts based on the 76 days of fallow period. I don’t buy monster sized corals cause I really enjoy watching them grow into something awesome. My frags can also go in there at any time and be done and sold whenever the current cycle is over because they came from a disease free environment.

My fish go through TTM with prazi and then another 4 weeks in a fish QT that does not stay up and running. Only when needed does that tank get wet. This hard work makes the enjoyment of accomplishment much more strong since I am a very, very impatient person.

Like you said. Protect yourself the best you can and stay dry.