Adding nitrate via sodium nitrate

chrisaggie · 11/13/2003, 04:48 PM

Does anyone have any experience adding nitrate to their tanks by making a stock solution of dilute sodium nitrate? I have a DSB in my tank and a large clam that suck the nitrate out of the tank. My nitrate runs at undetectable levels and I would like to bump it up to 2-3 ppm. Any ideas or comments are welcome. I understand that some of you do not agree that nitrate is necessary in a reef tank, please do not post just to state this opinion. Thanks.
~Chris

blueoceandiver · 11/13/2003, 07:42 PM

seven ephors · 11/14/2003, 11:12 AM

I think they use sodium nitrate in the clam hatcheries where we get these clams.

How about just feed more... like adding some fish flakes to the water? Isn't every thing that is not alive turns into nitrate at the end?

chrisaggie · 11/14/2003, 11:47 AM

Yes, you're right that feeding the fish more will produce more nitrate, but that will also produce more phosphate. I would like to avoid the phosphate addition. Also, I already feed me fish once a day.
~chris

schambers · 11/14/2003, 12:59 PM

If you are just planning to feed clams with excess sodium nitrate, why dont you consider phytoplankton instead. If you are against this, approach the addition very slowly, either add very low concentrations of Sodium nitrate or a high molar solution. I know this is probably not an option that anyone wants to take, but since clams are such great removers of nitrate, you could remove 1 clam out of the display for a short time allowing a slow increase in NaSO4. Also the deep sand bed is stealing nitrates out of you system, remove sand, another thing you personally probably won't want to do.
If you consider the reaction mechanism for the addition of NaSO4 with water, you will react to produce a complete dissociation of Na from SO4. Wheter this dissociation allows SO4 to bind to another element is a possibility in a solution of chemicals such as a reef tank.
If you decide to do this (Mr. Obvious says) start slow and increase the concentration or decrease molarity with positive results.

chrisaggie · 11/14/2003, 01:23 PM

schambers, I totally understand what you are saying and agree, but did you mean NO3 instead of SO4? Where did the SO4 come from? I do feed live phyto that I grow myself, but I don't believe this provides the nitrate the clam needs.

schambers · 11/14/2003, 01:29 PM

Sorry I was writing and not thinking. YES NO3 NOT SO4. You do not want to add sulfate to the tank with an increase in sulfur. Sorry for that. But at least you understand what I meant.

chrisaggie · 11/14/2003, 01:31 PM

I figured you just had a brain fart. I could tell you knew what you were talking about, and I knew what you meant.

schambers · 11/14/2003, 02:23 PM

So have you decided what you are going to do? It sounds like a cool idea. Never really considered the option of adding nitrates until i saw your post. Whats your clam population?

chrisaggie · 11/14/2003, 02:28 PM

I have decided that I am going to go ahead and dose the sodium nitrate. I am going to do this by dilution 1g of NaNO3 in 1L of RO/DI water to make a stock solution. From this stock solution I am going to add 30mL per day and vigorously monitor the nitrate level in my tank. I may have to play with the dosing to achieve the disired nitrate level of about 2ppm. I only have one clas right now (a 7" squamosa), but I also have a DSB which removes nitrates. I may seem ironic that I have a DSB and plan to add nitrate, but without the DSB my nitrates could be out of control. I would rather get rid of most the nitrate and have to add some back in than have high nitrates and have to do excessive water changes to lower the nitrate level.
~Chris

schambers · 11/14/2003, 02:47 PM

A lot of work for one clam! Thinking about this situation a little. This reaction that you plan on attempting is going to be an equilibrium rxn with a fairly large dissociation constant. (Easy separation of the two elements) The main problem will be that the NO3 will have a relatively high affinity for a weakly electronegative element. Hence it will bind to anything it can as easily as possible exothermically (most likely). To give a little positive reinforcement, since this rxn will take place in 99% water, this will likely bind to an H+ ion or H30+. I hope I'm not getting to in depth into chemistry for you. If I am tell me and I'll help you. Anyways I think that your NaNO3 will dissociate into Na + NO3 then the NO3 will undergo a secondary rxn to form HNO3. Fairly positive towards the effect that you are trying to create...

chrisaggie · 11/14/2003, 02:54 PM

I am just fine with your chemistry and understand it all. I believe the corals in my tank will also benefit from this addition along with the clam. I think that this dosing will have the effect I am looking for but only time will tell.

SPS Reef · 11/14/2003, 03:14 PM

Not to but in on you two but where do you get Sodium Nitrate I plan doing mostly clams and acro's in my new 150. Do to the fact that the tank is only 16 inches deep you can look down on the tank very well. Im looking to have about 3 of each kind of clams T.Maxima T.crocea T.Derasa T.Squamosa H.Hippopus T.Rosewater T.Gigas.

chrisaggie · 11/14/2003, 03:31 PM

It depends on what grade of sodium nitrate you want. I think you would be fine with the gold refining grade here. Lab grade sodium nitrate can be obtained here. I also found some at a spice company sice it is used for curing meats. If I find that link I will post it.
~Chris

SPS Reef · 11/14/2003, 03:34 PM

Thanks Chris.

Snarkys · 12/16/2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisaggie
I have decided that I am going to go ahead and dose the sodium nitrate. I am going to do this by dilution 1g of NaNO3 in 1L of RO/DI water to make a stock solution. From this stock solution I am going to add 30mL per day and vigorously monitor the nitrate level in my tank. I may have to play with the dosing to achieve the disired nitrate level of about 2ppm. I only have one clas right now (a 7" squamosa), but I also have a DSB which removes nitrates. I may seem ironic that I have a DSB and plan to add nitrate, but without the DSB my nitrates could be out of control. I would rather get rid of most the nitrate and have to add some back in than have high nitrates and have to do excessive water changes to lower the nitrate level.
~Chris

results please : )

chrisaggie · 12/16/2006, 05:16 PM

no results. I just decided to up my feeding. I do have some sodium nitrate on the shelf though.

Samala · 12/16/2006, 06:21 PM

Chris there's a thread in the Marine Plants forum on dosing sodium nitrate (well, we started with potassium nitrate but that's just an artifact of my experiences in tissue culture and plant science) into a tank for feeding macroalgae and seagrasses.

I definitely see the interest in dosing so for the benefit of clams. Check out Nitrate dosing and the main favorites link for some ideas, here.

Good to see the plant people aren't the only crazy ones.

Edit: Just realized how old this thread was...

>Sarah

Fredfish · 12/17/2006, 12:43 AM

I'm one of those crazy plant people that doses nitrate. I use calcium nitrate (got some from my brother who grows orchids).

I just mixed up a strong concentrate and dose 3-5 ml as needed to bump nitrates up to 2-3 mg/l.

Personally I think upping the feeding was a better decision. If you up the phyto additions you are giving your clam more of other needed things like huffas, anti-oxidants and vitamins.

Fred

11/13/2003, 04:48 PM	#1
chrisaggie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunrise, FL Posts: 2,844	Adding nitrate via sodium nitrate Does anyone have any experience adding nitrate to their tanks by making a stock solution of dilute sodium nitrate? I have a DSB in my tank and a large clam that suck the nitrate out of the tank. My nitrate runs at undetectable levels and I would like to bump it up to 2-3 ppm. Any ideas or comments are welcome. I understand that some of you do not agree that nitrate is necessary in a reef tank, please do not post just to state this opinion. Thanks. ~Chris Last edited by chrisaggie; 11/13/2003 at 04:54 PM.

11/13/2003, 07:42 PM	#2
blueoceandiver Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: florida Posts: 463	__________________ gather around....because today will not come again.......... Current Tank Info: jbj 28 hqi

11/14/2003, 12:59 PM	#5
schambers Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lexington, Ky Posts: 26	If you are just planning to feed clams with excess sodium nitrate, why dont you consider phytoplankton instead. If you are against this, approach the addition very slowly, either add very low concentrations of Sodium nitrate or a high molar solution. I know this is probably not an option that anyone wants to take, but since clams are such great removers of nitrate, you could remove 1 clam out of the display for a short time allowing a slow increase in NaSO4. Also the deep sand bed is stealing nitrates out of you system, remove sand, another thing you personally probably won't want to do. If you consider the reaction mechanism for the addition of NaSO4 with water, you will react to produce a complete dissociation of Na from SO4. Wheter this dissociation allows SO4 to bind to another element is a possibility in a solution of chemicals such as a reef tank. If you decide to do this (Mr. Obvious says) start slow and increase the concentration or decrease molarity with positive results. __________________ My Beliefs Do Not Require You To Believe Current Tank Info: 55 display with 20 gallon refugium, 4-VHO's w/ 2-175W MH, PC's over fuge, Stony/Clam display

11/14/2003, 01:29 PM	#7
schambers Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lexington, Ky Posts: 26	Sorry I was writing and not thinking. YES NO3 NOT SO4. You do not want to add sulfate to the tank with an increase in sulfur. Sorry for that. But at least you understand what I meant. __________________ My Beliefs Do Not Require You To Believe Current Tank Info: 55 display with 20 gallon refugium, 4-VHO's w/ 2-175W MH, PC's over fuge, Stony/Clam display

11/14/2003, 02:23 PM	#9
schambers Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lexington, Ky Posts: 26	So have you decided what you are going to do? It sounds like a cool idea. Never really considered the option of adding nitrates until i saw your post. Whats your clam population? __________________ My Beliefs Do Not Require You To Believe Current Tank Info: 55 display with 20 gallon refugium, 4-VHO's w/ 2-175W MH, PC's over fuge, Stony/Clam display

11/14/2003, 11:12 AM	#3
seven ephors Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: so cal Posts: 223	I think they use sodium nitrate in the clam hatcheries where we get these clams. How about just feed more... like adding some fish flakes to the water? Isn't every thing that is not alive turns into nitrate at the end?

11/14/2003, 11:47 AM	#4
chrisaggie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunrise, FL Posts: 2,844	Yes, you're right that feeding the fish more will produce more nitrate, but that will also produce more phosphate. I would like to avoid the phosphate addition. Also, I already feed me fish once a day. ~chris

11/14/2003, 01:23 PM	#6
chrisaggie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunrise, FL Posts: 2,844	schambers, I totally understand what you are saying and agree, but did you mean NO3 instead of SO4? Where did the SO4 come from? I do feed live phyto that I grow myself, but I don't believe this provides the nitrate the clam needs.

11/14/2003, 01:31 PM	#8
chrisaggie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunrise, FL Posts: 2,844	I figured you just had a brain fart. I could tell you knew what you were talking about, and I knew what you meant.

11/14/2003, 02:28 PM	#10
chrisaggie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunrise, FL Posts: 2,844	I have decided that I am going to go ahead and dose the sodium nitrate. I am going to do this by dilution 1g of NaNO3 in 1L of RO/DI water to make a stock solution. From this stock solution I am going to add 30mL per day and vigorously monitor the nitrate level in my tank. I may have to play with the dosing to achieve the disired nitrate level of about 2ppm. I only have one clas right now (a 7" squamosa), but I also have a DSB which removes nitrates. I may seem ironic that I have a DSB and plan to add nitrate, but without the DSB my nitrates could be out of control. I would rather get rid of most the nitrate and have to add some back in than have high nitrates and have to do excessive water changes to lower the nitrate level. ~Chris

11/14/2003, 02:47 PM	#11
schambers Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lexington, Ky Posts: 26	A lot of work for one clam! Thinking about this situation a little. This reaction that you plan on attempting is going to be an equilibrium rxn with a fairly large dissociation constant. (Easy separation of the two elements) The main problem will be that the NO3 will have a relatively high affinity for a weakly electronegative element. Hence it will bind to anything it can as easily as possible exothermically (most likely). To give a little positive reinforcement, since this rxn will take place in 99% water, this will likely bind to an H+ ion or H30+. I hope I'm not getting to in depth into chemistry for you. If I am tell me and I'll help you. Anyways I think that your NaNO3 will dissociate into Na + NO3 then the NO3 will undergo a secondary rxn to form HNO3. Fairly positive towards the effect that you are trying to create... __________________ My Beliefs Do Not Require You To Believe Current Tank Info: 55 display with 20 gallon refugium, 4-VHO's w/ 2-175W MH, PC's over fuge, Stony/Clam display

11/14/2003, 02:54 PM	#12
chrisaggie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunrise, FL Posts: 2,844	I am just fine with your chemistry and understand it all. I believe the corals in my tank will also benefit from this addition along with the clam. I think that this dosing will have the effect I am looking for but only time will tell.

11/14/2003, 03:14 PM	#13
SPS Reef Moved On Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R.I Posts: 248	Not to but in on you two but where do you get Sodium Nitrate I plan doing mostly clams and acro's in my new 150. Do to the fact that the tank is only 16 inches deep you can look down on the tank very well. Im looking to have about 3 of each kind of clams T.Maxima T.crocea T.Derasa T.Squamosa H.Hippopus T.Rosewater T.Gigas.

11/14/2003, 03:31 PM	#14
chrisaggie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunrise, FL Posts: 2,844	It depends on what grade of sodium nitrate you want. I think you would be fine with the gold refining grade here. Lab grade sodium nitrate can be obtained here. I also found some at a spice company sice it is used for curing meats. If I find that link I will post it. ~Chris

11/14/2003, 03:34 PM	#15
SPS Reef Moved On Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R.I Posts: 248	Thanks Chris.

12/16/2006, 05:16 PM	#17
chrisaggie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunrise, FL Posts: 2,844	no results. I just decided to up my feeding. I do have some sodium nitrate on the shelf though. __________________ I love this hobby! Current Tank Info: 180 g tank w/ 3 250W 10K metal halides & 3 30w vho actinic. ~300 pounds mixed live rock. SPS dominated. 1/2 hp chiller, K2R calcium rector, GEO nilsen reactor, enaly ozonizer w/ milwakee orp controller, dual injector MR-2 w/ pan world

12/16/2006, 06:21 PM	#18
Samala Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 2,930	Chris there's a thread in the Marine Plants forum on dosing sodium nitrate (well, we started with potassium nitrate but that's just an artifact of my experiences in tissue culture and plant science) into a tank for feeding macroalgae and seagrasses. I definitely see the interest in dosing so for the benefit of clams. Check out Nitrate dosing and the main favorites link for some ideas, here. Good to see the plant people aren't the only crazy ones. Edit: Just realized how old this thread was... >Sarah __________________ "Seaweed is cool, seaweed is fun, it makes its food from the rays of the sun!"

12/17/2006, 12:43 AM	#19
Fredfish Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 2,661	I'm one of those crazy plant people that doses nitrate. I use calcium nitrate (got some from my brother who grows orchids). I just mixed up a strong concentrate and dose 3-5 ml as needed to bump nitrates up to 2-3 mg/l. Personally I think upping the feeding was a better decision. If you up the phyto additions you are giving your clam more of other needed things like huffas, anti-oxidants and vitamins. Fred __________________ Advice is like a firehose. Be careful how you drink.