Ats

[Flatlander]

Eric, When you experimented with an ATS, was it a mixed reef containing sps or a lagoon type system?

I know you wrote an artilce on the subject. Could you tell me where I could read it?

As I have sold/traded away most of my soft corals and my tank is now comprised mainly of a variety of sps frags and three large clams, [ I still have large star & yellow polyp colonies, covering much of the glass], and my ATS will soon be the only filtration on the tank,[ besides my sandbed & limited rock of course], I was interested in your opinions.

Thanks

[EricHugo]

The article was in TFH, March 2000 issue.

The tank was both of what you describe - a mixed reef containing sps in a lagoon type setting. Yes, sps are found in lagoons.

Let me know if you have more questions on it....

[Mark]

Hey Doug,

I just jumped on the ATS bandwagon as well. Mine is currently on a 38 lagoonish tank, at least that's what I call it. Good to see others using them as well. I scanned Eric's article into my computer for safe keeping. I'd be happy to share it with you if you can't track down an old issue of TFH, that is of course if Eric is ok with it.

One thing I noticed after installing it, is that the surge from the dump bucket is not nearly enough flow. I added 2 powerheads(maxijet 900's) for additional circulation. While I know there hasn't been any conclusive data, how bad do you guys think these pumps really are for the microorganisms in the tank? Just looking for an opinion here. I don't want to stray from Adey's advice too much, but then I think I already am by powering the ATS itself with a powerhead.

[Flatlander]

Thanks Eric. Hey Mark, nice to hear that, we will be able to compare notes. I will also be using extra pumps, and I dont think they do much harm by looking at the life in my current tank with multiple pumps, but then there is lots I cant see.

I do have the large model ATS, so the dump should be decent, but its going on my 170.

I have never seen TFH for sale around here.

[Mark]

Hey Doug,

Couple of questions. Are you planning on phasing out the skimmer slowly or immediately? Also, did you get a seeded screen? I would've liked to have phased the skimmer out slowly as the turf community developed, but I couldn't fit both on the tank. So now, the tank is essentially running on autopilot till the algae develops on the screen. I contacted Inland for a seeded screen, but no word yet.

Btw, this tank is in pretty bad shape. It was under my GF's care, and the Asparagopsis taxiformis is covering everything(I hate this algae). It'll be interesting to see whether the turf community will outcompete this and other nuissance alga in the main tank. So the ATS will be put to the test on my eutrophicating lagoon.

[Flatlander]

I plan on running the skimmer in the sump for awile. The ATS will sit on top of the tank, and when fully operational, the sump will cease to exist,

I have talked to Morgan about a screen and shipping it to Canada. He said this could be done.

I have only some bubble algae, so not to much for mine to out compete. I read the articles by the university in Minnesota, that runs one and how it cleared up a case of slime algae.

[EricHugo]

Ideally, you'd want to minimize tramautic pumping to keep with the Dynamic Aquaria paradigm, but traumatic pumps are a given with today's scrubbers - and you would weigh the pluses and minuses of lower flow versus added impellers. If I hadn't seen even lower flow dumps at Inland many times, I'd say more flow would be imperative, but they have things growing like crazy in tanks with dumps happening every 30 seconds or so and no other pumps. Try it both ways and see what happens. The hardest part for me was getting the screen to mature and get those climax turfs up and kicking..then it was a piece of cake, and amphipod-in-the-screen problems were dramatically less. I think you'll like what you see.

[Mark]

Now if only someone could come out with a cheaper, injection molded version.

[LiquidShaneo]

Here's what I was initially thinking of doing for an inexpensive ATS unit. I kind of combined the Borneman Surge with a slanted turf screen:

http://liquidreef2.freeservers.com/t...ge_Concept.jpg




Comments anyone?

Shane Graber
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Shane, looks good to me. In fact, fluctuating the water level and keeping the algae stationary is more like a natural turf community than moving the substrate the turf grows on(like a dump bucket). Have you seen the thick mossy turfs that grow on piers at the water line in the tidal area? That's some serious stuff! In all honesty, I think both applications work well. Your design just reminds me more of the large fishing piers covered in algae that get wet with each wave. The only concern I have is how much the air exposure and water exposure times matter. In your design, I forsee the algae being exposed for longer periods of time to air and water as it fills and empties. I seriously doubt this matters though. There are so many species of algae involved in a turf community, each with it's own set of adaptations and advantages. Some have a more competitive advatage in the lower/wetter levels, and some are more competitive higher up/drier area. Essentially one may grow faster being able to outcompete others, but may not do as well in the drier areas, where other algae grow have an adaptive advantage. Every ATS design, where algae is intermittantly exposed to moist air and water, will provide an environment that falls somewhere in this range of intertidal turf communities. Just what algae will grow might be different among the various designs. But it's still going to grow and work! Perhaps Eric can help out here, since my Bio. vocabulary is a bit weak these days. Like a foreign language I no longer use, I forget words... Eric, what do you call it when you can see distinct layers of biota in an intertidal area? A stratification of zones, each having different varieties of alga and grazers.

[Flatlander]

Eric, I have been thinking of that also. My tank is 4ft. by 3 ft. with the sps dominating a reef flat in the center area. This is where I intended the surge to be. Around the outsides are corals, like my large bubble that prefer very little flow, so the no auxillary pump idea may work well.

[EricHugo]

Shane:

Looks very interesting to me, too..almost intersting enough to pull the ATS out of the attic! I agree with you Mark - you may wind up with different turfs, but still effective. The analogy was a good one. I also get interesting turfs and algal crusts at the discharge line, the water line surface and the top of the surge tank on th glass. I try not to disturb them, either. I get Ulva growing really well attached to the glass right at the water line of all the tanks. Does poorly submerged.

I'm not quite sure I know the term you are lookign for Mark - intertidal sounds good to me.

Doug - you were thinking about doing what Shane is thinking of?

[Mark]

I guess they simply call it, Intertidal Zonation

Here's a figure from Nybakken's Marine Biology: An Ecological Approach

http://www.tidalblue.com/images/zonation.jpg

In this scenario, they're talking about barnacles, but it applies to algae as well. One of the long term things I'm interested in seeing is whether you can vary which turf communities become dominant by adjusting the timing of the dump bucket over time. It would obviously take months to see the result of each change, but hey I've got nothing better to do. The change in timing would be seconds, and may be too small to make a difference.

Doug,
What's the latest news on your ATS? Fixable?

Eric,
It would be great if you kickstarted that ATS again. I'm pretty excited at the fact that there will be more folks here using them. It would be neat to document everyone's experiences over time, since we are all just starting up the ATS units. Perhaps, we can help eliminate the bad and misguided reputation they have received.

You mentioned algae communities developing at the water line. I thought I'd share an interesting observation. I have a 20 gallon "leftovers" reef tank, that I have a cheap prizm skimmer on. Since the tank is lit with a pendant 10 inches away, the overflow return on the skimmer receives a lot of light as well. I recently added a small rock with some wiry turf communities on it, which I collected down in SE Florida. I was hoping to use it to seed the ATS. Unfortunately, the turf got grazed by the snails in the tank, and I found the rock bare. But recently, some of this turf has started growing nicely on the overflow return of the skimmer, out of harms way from the snails. Lately, I've been scraping it off biweekly, since it grows back quickly. While the area is fairly small, it's pretty neat to see a little pseudo-ats running on it.

[Flatlander]

Eric, I meant to try as your post said, with no supplemental powerheads and just using the dump/surge as the only means of water motion. I think this may do well, because of the layout of my reef.

Mark, Nothing yet. Being looked into on the other end.

[Fredfish]

Interesting thread.
Since putting an ats above the tank is not an option for me, and because I have room in the cabinet below the tank, I came up with yet another design.
Water from the tank would enter a surge device (yet to be designed) and would surge over a turf algae screen in a container below. From there, the water would flow into the sump and back into the tank.

Scuse the crude ascii

  |       | <- Surge device
  |       |
  |___||__|
 |    ||                   |
 |       ++++++++++++++++++| <-ats with screen (+)
||_||______________________| |
|  ||                        |
|             sump           == <- water to tank
|____________________________|

A side benefit to this design is the elimination of a pump for the surge ( or to feed the ats).

The only thing I haven’t figured out is placement of the algae screen. Should it be at the water line or below it?

Any input of comments would be appreciated.

[LiquidShaneo]

Doug: It may be a PITA but I think that can be fixed with enough time, acrylic, and glue/adhesive. Man that sux that it broke for you tho...

Fred: I read over an ATS archived thread on FishNet today and I believe Morgan said something about the need for the ATS screen to be surged back and forth and that is why the dump bucket is employed. I downloaded the archived thread in case anyone wants to read it. Either e-mail me (e-mail is in my profile) or post here and I'll forward the thread. FishNet is somewhat hard to navigate IMO.

Eric: I read your ATS article last nite and am wondering about what you considered "heavy feeding" and "light feeding" in your 40 gal breeder that employed ATS technology. How much was "heavy feeding" and how much was "light feeding"?


Heh, now I want to try making a *tiny* ATS for my 2.5 gal pico reef...

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Fred, Looks good to me. But why not put the algae inside the surge device? That would save space and plumbing.

Heh, now I want to try making a *tiny* ATS for my 2.5 gal pico reef...

Here's a pic of that overflow on my 20:




Another neat ATS design I've seen in person used to be made by US Aquarium for the Aquatic Wildlife Center in Tennesee. Basically, it was a black sump with a light box on it. But inside was a see-saw like dumping mechanism with two ATS screens. The water came from the center. As one side filled and dumped, the see saw would tilt and begin filling the other side. Then it would dump and tilt the see-saw back, thereby directing the other side to get filled with the centered water pipe.

[LiquidShaneo]

Heh, that sounds pretty kewl.

OK...here's a question: I just looked over Inland Aquatics' website and *no-where* can I see that they even sell ATS' anymore. I looked as hard as I could and didn't see the ATS100 or ATS250 for sale anywhere. Am I blind or am I missing something?

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Originally posted by LiquidShaneo
Heh, that sounds pretty kewl.

OK...here's a question: I just looked over Inland Aquatics' website and *no-where* can I see that they even sell ATS' anymore. I looked as hard as I could and didn't see the ATS100 or ATS250 for sale anywhere. Am I blind or am I missing something?

Shane
(aka "liquid")

Don't quote me on this, but rumor has it that Adey not only wanted a percentage of the profits from selling the ATS, but also a percentage of the profit made from raising corals,fish, etc. with the ATS at Inland. I believe a lawsuit followed, and now Inland is no longer allowed to sell the ATS units based on Adey's patent. This is all through the grapevine, so I do not know the validity of this. I know some of the Inland folks frequent this board, so perhaps they could elaborate or explain. It's a bummer though. Another company now exclusively makes them for Adey. They can be found at:

http://www.algaeturfscrubber.com/


Also here's the licensing info for Algae Scrubbers:

Upon the purchase of this Algae Turf Scrubber I am aware that this unit is intended for non-commercial indoor use only. Use on any public display, marriculture operation, any body of water consisting of 3000 gallons or better, and outdoor use is strictly prohibited.

Upon approval, you may obtain a license from Ecological Systems Technology, LP for use in any manner mentioned above.

Any retail store purchasing the Algae Turf Scrubber for use of distributing specimens on display to the retail market, yielding a gross receipt of 25 percent of or more in specimen sales from Algae Turf Scrubbers will pay an annual royalty of 8 percent to Ecological System Technology, LP. Before considering use of such manner mentioned above, seller would need to be approved and licensed by Ecological Systems Technology, LP.

You may inquire Ecological Systems Technology, LP about qualifying for a license directly:


Ecological Systems Technology, LP
9478 Bay Meadows Road
Gloucester VA, 23061

Taken from the algaescrubber.com web site.

[LiquidShaneo]

OK...wth is up with that? Morgan as well as Adey have shown that ATS' do work -- and quite well from what I've seen and read on the various bulletin boards. You would think that Adey would *promote* people using this technology on as many systems as possible so he gets more market share. The way he's going about it is killing the whole commercial concept. Arg. Money grubbing....

Oh well... Back to watching for them on E-Bay...

Shane

[EricHugo]

My my my what a nice thread this turned into....

Shane, it was so long ago that I can't remember what and how much I fed that tank. It bordered on ludicrous, as I recall...five times per day?

Mark, nice screen! Nice mangrove leaf, too!

Fred, it would work, but the turfs that you want to promote seem to do best in that intertidal area - like where waves hit a rocky shore. There is some evidnce that some of the species may be able to translate flexion into energy or photosynthetic enhancement. They certainly do best with that partly exposed, partly submerged back and forth action of the dump bucket. I think you could also make it work by having a surge flow onto a screen where it was actually out of the water --- that would simulate the same conditions. It woudl really curtail the force of the surge, though.

On Adey and Inland...I won't go into it, but the rumor Mark just spread is eerily accurate from what I know, as well. Tragic, and also kind of odd as Walter is a super nice man. However, I have also been told he has an attorney in the family with whom I got the distinct impression that the handiwork is his doing. It is a major shame for Morgan and Walter - and neither party should have to go through anything like this as it is incredibly counterproductive to a product that has yet to see its time come and was just beginning to make some strides....so no, you can no longer order ATS from Morgan and because of the situation, I'm not sure I would personally support the true ATS design out of loyalty to my friend. I might be tempted to use one of the "alternate" algae scrubbers that have been around for a long time, even if they were the "competition" when Morgan had the license.

sigh. money. it ruins friends, businesses, marriages, families...I vote for a non-monetar based system - maybe we can go back to a trading system?

[Mark]

Mark, nice screen! Nice mangrove leaf, too!

Thanks Eric! I have a feeling the algae growing on the prizm skimmer does more for the tank than the actual skimmer. The mangrove is one fast growing tree! It's funny how a tank set up with leftover and cheap equipment w/ no regard to aquascaping/decoration, can end up more beautiful than the tank I baby and spend all my money on!

Eric is right about Adey. I met him at last year's MACNA, and he was a warm and friendly guy. That's why I was surprised to hear about the lawsuit. IMHO, Adey made a big mistake breaking his ties with Inland. Inland Aquatics is about the best advertisement/testament to what an ATS can provide. To be fair, I've exchanged emails with the folks at algaeturfscrubber.com, and they have always been friendly. But I still bought my screen from Morgan.

Here's a pic of it installed on my screen. I cut a corner off and zip tied elsewhere on the screen to speed up coverage/colonization onto the bare areas. Eric, did your screen look like this? I always thought the screens were made up of more reddish turf alga. It may sound corny, but this is getting exciting. I feel like I'm entering a whole new facet to reefkeeping. I've always believed in less technology/more biology. Now I get to practice what I preach!

[EricHugo]

Hi Mark:

The image you attached didn;t load for me - I got an error message for it - but all the other potos on the page load fine.

Anyway, I know Morgan said there were a lot of different turfs seeded, and I got mostly long green filamentous types for many months with a heavy wet weight. It was probably about six months before I saw their replacement by the shorter turfs. At the end of my ATS tank time, and also when I re-set it up a few years ago with a fully screen instead of a starter patch, I would estimate about 60% of two predominant types of red turf (a soft and a stiff), about 20-30% of slightly longer (maybe by 1-2mm) very tough green turfs, and the remainder the longer filamentous types. The short turfs were very hard to scrape, as a plastic blade or card just sort of went right over the top of them...you almost had to grab a corner and peel it off like a mat. After dong this, the screen looked almost bare, but it wasn't, and developed the same fby time the next scraping came along. I would go 2-3 weeks without scraping at this point, whereas with the long filamentous types it was twice per week before the weight of it stopped the dump tray entirely.

[LiquidShaneo]

Mark: The photo you attached is pointed at your C:\ drive and that's why neither Eric nor I can see it. Upload it to yer website and repost the link.

Eric: Do you have any idea what "volume" you were feeding during your ATS experience? You mentioned in the article that you fed anywhere from every couple days to 5 - 6 times per day and I was just curious to know how much stuff you threw in there every time.

Also, I read a thread on FishNet that stated that the turfs will even out-compete macroalgaes. Do you agree or disagree with this statement Eric?


Man, that's too bad about the whole Inland / Adey issue. I agree that Adey made a big mistake by severing ties with Inland as that's the best place to showcase the technology. His loss I guess...

Shane
(aka "liquid")

[Mark]

Wow that's weird. I did upload it to my web site, and I put the link in properly. But then I went in to edit my post this morning, and I noticed that it was indeed directed to my C drive. I fixed the image, so it should work now.