HELP: Phosphate Test Kits - $$*# - No help in diagnosising Cyano problem

Rinaldi · 11/26/1999, 02:11 PM

I have been fighting an unexplained ugly Cyano bloom for a couple weeks and despite my efforts (water changes with RO/DI water, skimming, activated carbon, elevated ph, and detritus removal with a temporary mechanical filter)it is still frustrating. I used a Red Sea phosphate test kit and it shows that my RO/DI water, RO/DI water plus IO salt, and my tank water are all at .25 phosphate. The Seatest kit shows that all are at zero.

Knowing if my RO/DI water is letting in phosphate is crucial since I am now concerned that the membrane is shot (I apparently have hard, mineral laden water). I am starting to jump to drastic conclusions that my six month old RO/DI membrane has failed, or that my 175 watt mh (5,5k) lights have changed spectrum, or that its my underpowered CPR Bakpak skimmer (75g reef tank, but light bioload). (I have ordered 10k bulbs and an improved skimmer)

[This message has been edited by Rinaldi (edited 11-26-1999).]

Larry M · 11/26/1999, 02:20 PM

Rinaldi--First of all, a couple of weeks is a short time when it comes to battling a cyano bloom. It took me a couple of months to really get rid of it.
How old is your system?
I would throw away the phosphate test kits. You know a problem exists, testing for the level with kits known to be highly inaccurate is a waste of time, IMO.
I would invest in a better skimmer more suited for the size of your tank. Whoops, I see you did that. Which skimmer did you buy?
What is your bio-load (fish and corals) and how much of what kind of food do you feed?
What kind of RO/DI unit is it, and how are the stages set up? (sediment cartridges, carbon, etc)
If you are really concerned about your membrane you can have a sample tested for total dissolved solids--it will tell you if the unit is working properly.
When was the DI resin last changed?
HTH,

------------------
Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

Rinaldi · 11/26/1999, 08:31 PM

Thank you Larry for the Reply! I will submit a long reply because I know information is key to getting some answers I really need.
I will start by saying I have been asuming the prblem is Cyano, but it could be Dino? I think you had a recent post on that. I have a light brown/tan mat of slime, with tons of tiny air bubles, covering substrate and glass It does form long goopy strands. It blows off the rock easily, but doesn't siphon off the substrate real easy.

The bloom has been going on for three to four weeks and I admit patience is running thin. Ph has been rising high in the evening (8.6) for about two months, so I mistakenly stopped dosing kalk, buffer, etc. and I now have low alkalinity, but still high ph in the day. High ph is probably caused by the daytime photosynthesis of the bloom (ie, lower Co2, higher Oxygen). About the time the bloom was becoming a problem I lost a new Xenia and a new leather (maybe due to low alkalinity) and unfortunately delayed a bit in removing them from the tank - hence I think I have alot of dissolved organic compounds in the tank. The Skimmer is pulling out a lot of watery junk, but I am upgrading (see below) because I don't think its enough. Nitrate has consistently tested 0 on Salifert, but I have my doubts.

Tank is six months old, 75g, open tank, 175w mh (5.5k) with actinics, no sump, 80 lbs live rock, and 4" aragonite "sand" bed, no plenum. Very little life in the "sand" as I seeded it with on 3-4 lbs live sand because I though live rock would seed it over time. I thought a CPR bakpak would be enough given light bioload and 80 lbs live rock. I have ordered a Turboflotor 1000 hang-on from Aqua Medic. Is that enough? My current guess is that inefficent skimming has been my problem, but like I said in the first post, I am now questioning everthing as I lose patience.
(RO unit, lights, etc.)

Tank has two fish, a large old maroon clown and a yellow tang. Also has a shrimp and two brittle stars. I feed Spirulina flake food and freeze dried plankton - although they eat it all, I do probably overfeed. Twice a day, with 15-20 flakes or plankton pieces). I sometimes use frozen Formula One (red cubes).

Current corals are a cup coral, another turbinaria, a colt coral, a mushroom coral, a lobophylia, and three clams - All corals were doing okay, but as the bloom and ph problems continue are starting to struggle. Of these, surprisingly the clams have looked the best lately. I lost the leather, Xenia, and one Porites (but I goofed - the Porites wasn't dead, just not opening and being covered in cyano. I think I panicked and gave up on it prematurely.)

I knew the Red Sea kit was unreliable but was hoping that some test kit could tell me if the bloom was caused by phosphate in my RO/DI make up water. We apparently have hard, mineral laden water and I am wondering if my RO membrane is trashed even though its six months old. We also had a major drought this summer which I suspect led to very poor water quality and could have damaged the membrane.

Cloth sediment filter and carbon were recently (6 weeks ago) replaced and are first in line. Then comes the 60pd, Hi-S Kent membrane, which is six months old and the unit only services the one tank. Finally, I added a DI unit to the end of the line (6 weeks ago) and it shows no color change.

My dosing regimen has been kalk, buffer, or Aragamight, never together, but all rotated and alternated. Probably a bad idea I am now starting a disciplined kalk dosing regimen.

As you can see, I have made some mistakes, and am still learing. The cyano problem and ph rising problem are frustrating, but the knowledge will be helpful. Except for my dosing habits and poor skimmer, things really were done by the book. My guess is that inefficient skimming is main cause, and I am waiting for the new skimmer to arrive this week. I am also waiting for the new 10k bulbs, just in case, and because the 5.5k are too yellow for my taste. Finally, I was testing for phosphate simply to know if the RO/DI was doing its job. The test kits don't help.

Thanks for any added thoughts or assistance!

Larry M · 11/26/1999, 10:12 PM

Rinaldi--Sounds like you have been doing a great job, for the most part, and are trying to stay on top of things. Sometimes we do everything right and still problems like cyano and other headaches happen just because they can. A young tank is going to go through some of these things, and all we can do is tough it out and stay with the basics.

For now I would stop adding anything to your tank that isn't absolutely necessary. Manually syphoning off the cyano followed by doing frequent water changes will probably help as much as anything to get you through this phase. I don't have personal experience with the Turbofloater but it has an excellent reputation.

It doesn't sound to me like you feed too much, but you could try cutting back temporarily until you get this under control.
Another thing I would do is add a powerhead or two in the areas most affected by the cyano. It likes dead-current areas best.

This is a temporary thing although it may not seem like it right now. Your tank is the same age mine was when I went through this same problem. Do frequent water changes, manually remove what you can of the cursed cyano, increase circulation, don't overfeed, and it will pass.

Good luck,

------------------
Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

rayjay · 11/27/1999, 12:30 AM

Rinaldi, every time I start another tank, I go through the whole process every time. I have nearly 6 yrs experience and I don't know any way to prevent it from happening. I just ride it out untill the tank "seasons" enough. I don't think my tanks are fully seasoned untill around 2 yrs. but most problems were gone by the end of the first year for each tank.
Every time you feed, you add phospates.
I don't know if my results are luck or due to my methods but in the end, all is ok.
I feed heavy, skim heavy, dose kalk heavy, and don't use additives like iodine, strontium mag. etc. Once in a while I've used Seachem's reefbuilder to help maitain alk, but usually, this is only on the tank with the homemade aragonite and crushed oyster rock.
Like Larry, I ride it out and do as much removal as possible and it eventually passes.

------------------
ICQ #30079114
http://www.angelfire.com/ab/rayjay/index.html

Rinaldi · 11/27/1999, 06:50 AM

Thank you both for the encouragement and the advice. My biggest concern has just been the negative effect on the corals and clams, which were doing great until this. It's just hard when you can't do anything fast.
Thanks again!

"Serenity Now, serenity now. Frank Constanza and Kramer.

Larry M · 11/27/1999, 10:49 AM

Well, rayjay said in a few sentences what I tried to say in several paragraphs.

I agree exactly.
As for Frank's quote, I also agree. LOL There have been many times I have had to say, "Serenity Now!!"

------------------
Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

11/26/1999, 02:11 PM	#1
Rinaldi Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: South Riding, Virginia Posts: 335	I have been fighting an unexplained ugly Cyano bloom for a couple weeks and despite my efforts (water changes with RO/DI water, skimming, activated carbon, elevated ph, and detritus removal with a temporary mechanical filter)it is still frustrating. I used a Red Sea phosphate test kit and it shows that my RO/DI water, RO/DI water plus IO salt, and my tank water are all at .25 phosphate. The Seatest kit shows that all are at zero. Knowing if my RO/DI water is letting in phosphate is crucial since I am now concerned that the membrane is shot (I apparently have hard, mineral laden water). I am starting to jump to drastic conclusions that my six month old RO/DI membrane has failed, or that my 175 watt mh (5,5k) lights have changed spectrum, or that its my underpowered CPR Bakpak skimmer (75g reef tank, but light bioload). (I have ordered 10k bulbs and an improved skimmer) [This message has been edited by Rinaldi (edited 11-26-1999).]

11/26/1999, 02:20 PM	#2
Larry M Moved On Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Burnsville,MN In the heart of Reef Country! Posts: 4,544	Rinaldi--First of all, a couple of weeks is a short time when it comes to battling a cyano bloom. It took me a couple of months to really get rid of it. How old is your system? I would throw away the phosphate test kits. You know a problem exists, testing for the level with kits known to be highly inaccurate is a waste of time, IMO. I would invest in a better skimmer more suited for the size of your tank. Whoops, I see you did that. Which skimmer did you buy? What is your bio-load (fish and corals) and how much of what kind of food do you feed? What kind of RO/DI unit is it, and how are the stages set up? (sediment cartridges, carbon, etc) If you are really concerned about your membrane you can have a sample tested for total dissolved solids--it will tell you if the unit is working properly. When was the DI resin last changed? HTH, ------------------ Larry M View a list of RC Member's websites at: http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

11/26/1999, 08:31 PM	#3
Rinaldi Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: South Riding, Virginia Posts: 335	Thank you Larry for the Reply! I will submit a long reply because I know information is key to getting some answers I really need. I will start by saying I have been asuming the prblem is Cyano, but it could be Dino? I think you had a recent post on that. I have a light brown/tan mat of slime, with tons of tiny air bubles, covering substrate and glass It does form long goopy strands. It blows off the rock easily, but doesn't siphon off the substrate real easy. The bloom has been going on for three to four weeks and I admit patience is running thin. Ph has been rising high in the evening (8.6) for about two months, so I mistakenly stopped dosing kalk, buffer, etc. and I now have low alkalinity, but still high ph in the day. High ph is probably caused by the daytime photosynthesis of the bloom (ie, lower Co2, higher Oxygen). About the time the bloom was becoming a problem I lost a new Xenia and a new leather (maybe due to low alkalinity) and unfortunately delayed a bit in removing them from the tank - hence I think I have alot of dissolved organic compounds in the tank. The Skimmer is pulling out a lot of watery junk, but I am upgrading (see below) because I don't think its enough. Nitrate has consistently tested 0 on Salifert, but I have my doubts. Tank is six months old, 75g, open tank, 175w mh (5.5k) with actinics, no sump, 80 lbs live rock, and 4" aragonite "sand" bed, no plenum. Very little life in the "sand" as I seeded it with on 3-4 lbs live sand because I though live rock would seed it over time. I thought a CPR bakpak would be enough given light bioload and 80 lbs live rock. I have ordered a Turboflotor 1000 hang-on from Aqua Medic. Is that enough? My current guess is that inefficent skimming has been my problem, but like I said in the first post, I am now questioning everthing as I lose patience. (RO unit, lights, etc.) Tank has two fish, a large old maroon clown and a yellow tang. Also has a shrimp and two brittle stars. I feed Spirulina flake food and freeze dried plankton - although they eat it all, I do probably overfeed. Twice a day, with 15-20 flakes or plankton pieces). I sometimes use frozen Formula One (red cubes). Current corals are a cup coral, another turbinaria, a colt coral, a mushroom coral, a lobophylia, and three clams - All corals were doing okay, but as the bloom and ph problems continue are starting to struggle. Of these, surprisingly the clams have looked the best lately. I lost the leather, Xenia, and one Porites (but I goofed - the Porites wasn't dead, just not opening and being covered in cyano. I think I panicked and gave up on it prematurely.) I knew the Red Sea kit was unreliable but was hoping that some test kit could tell me if the bloom was caused by phosphate in my RO/DI make up water. We apparently have hard, mineral laden water and I am wondering if my RO membrane is trashed even though its six months old. We also had a major drought this summer which I suspect led to very poor water quality and could have damaged the membrane. Cloth sediment filter and carbon were recently (6 weeks ago) replaced and are first in line. Then comes the 60pd, Hi-S Kent membrane, which is six months old and the unit only services the one tank. Finally, I added a DI unit to the end of the line (6 weeks ago) and it shows no color change. My dosing regimen has been kalk, buffer, or Aragamight, never together, but all rotated and alternated. Probably a bad idea I am now starting a disciplined kalk dosing regimen. As you can see, I have made some mistakes, and am still learing. The cyano problem and ph rising problem are frustrating, but the knowledge will be helpful. Except for my dosing habits and poor skimmer, things really were done by the book. My guess is that inefficient skimming is main cause, and I am waiting for the new skimmer to arrive this week. I am also waiting for the new 10k bulbs, just in case, and because the 5.5k are too yellow for my taste. Finally, I was testing for phosphate simply to know if the RO/DI was doing its job. The test kits don't help. Thanks for any added thoughts or assistance!

11/26/1999, 10:12 PM	#4
Larry M Moved On Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Burnsville,MN In the heart of Reef Country! Posts: 4,544	Rinaldi--Sounds like you have been doing a great job, for the most part, and are trying to stay on top of things. Sometimes we do everything right and still problems like cyano and other headaches happen just because they can. A young tank is going to go through some of these things, and all we can do is tough it out and stay with the basics. For now I would stop adding anything to your tank that isn't absolutely necessary. Manually syphoning off the cyano followed by doing frequent water changes will probably help as much as anything to get you through this phase. I don't have personal experience with the Turbofloater but it has an excellent reputation. It doesn't sound to me like you feed too much, but you could try cutting back temporarily until you get this under control. Another thing I would do is add a powerhead or two in the areas most affected by the cyano. It likes dead-current areas best. This is a temporary thing although it may not seem like it right now. Your tank is the same age mine was when I went through this same problem. Do frequent water changes, manually remove what you can of the cursed cyano, increase circulation, don't overfeed, and it will pass. Good luck, ------------------ Larry M View a list of RC Member's websites at: http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

11/27/1999, 12:30 AM	#5
rayjay Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 3,969	Rinaldi, every time I start another tank, I go through the whole process every time. I have nearly 6 yrs experience and I don't know any way to prevent it from happening. I just ride it out untill the tank "seasons" enough. I don't think my tanks are fully seasoned untill around 2 yrs. but most problems were gone by the end of the first year for each tank. Every time you feed, you add phospates. I don't know if my results are luck or due to my methods but in the end, all is ok. I feed heavy, skim heavy, dose kalk heavy, and don't use additives like iodine, strontium mag. etc. Once in a while I've used Seachem's reefbuilder to help maitain alk, but usually, this is only on the tank with the homemade aragonite and crushed oyster rock. Like Larry, I ride it out and do as much removal as possible and it eventually passes. ------------------ ICQ #30079114 http://www.angelfire.com/ab/rayjay/index.html

11/27/1999, 06:50 AM	#6
Rinaldi Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: South Riding, Virginia Posts: 335	Thank you both for the encouragement and the advice. My biggest concern has just been the negative effect on the corals and clams, which were doing great until this. It's just hard when you can't do anything fast. Thanks again! "Serenity Now, serenity now. Frank Constanza and Kramer.

11/27/1999, 10:49 AM	#7
Larry M Moved On Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Burnsville,MN In the heart of Reef Country! Posts: 4,544	Well, rayjay said in a few sentences what I tried to say in several paragraphs. I agree exactly. As for Frank's quote, I also agree. LOL There have been many times I have had to say, "Serenity Now!!" ------------------ Larry M View a list of RC Member's websites at: http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html