No Sick Fish, No QT, No water change

[Hobster]

Has everyone seen this? Just read the ad copy. They have a banner ad here on RC. I'll just leave it at that.....


http://www.nosickfish.com/

[dcoufal]

Thanks... I needed that!

[nossalucard]

It works on itchy skin too!!!!

[Anthony Calfo]

wow... three steps to success: pick you problem, pick your product, make your purchase.

I'm wondering if these folks have a dating service?

I'm thinking Nobel prize on the horizon.

[Falko]

I think these people thought the placebo effect would work on fish. Just one problem. It doesn't though.

[MiddletonMark]

Talked to the fellow at IMAC, seemed like a decent fellow.

Don't believe the product claims, but frankly - prefer to QT as I see other [behavioral] benefits from a stress-free tank in my basement, where the only `human interaction' my fish get for the first month is when I'm around to feed.
By the time they make the display, they're coming out when I walk past the tank, eating well, and looking good.

If they had a bottle for that, I'd think about it

[Anthony Calfo]

Nice fellow or not, I cannot imagine how the he/mfg can quantify or back up the claims "no qt" needed, "no water changes," etc.

The product also lists no ingredients I can see.

If this chap wants to distance himself from other products known to be fraudulent or "snake oil", he needs to clarify.

Some consideration for responsible marketing would help too.

[MiddletonMark]

You got that right.

But in this hobby, responsible marketing isn't practiced by that many. This is not very impressive, I agree ... but not that much different IMO than profiteering, poorly chosen livestock to sell, and that end.

Sadly, the crappy LFS in my town has another set of products to confuse newbies
And the good ones one more way to distinguish themselves

[Anthony Calfo]

very true... and sometimes it is or at least feels like the best we can do as conscientious aquarists, mentors, merchants, etc is what amounts to triage: help those that want the help/be advised... those that will listen. And don't stop to take the time to ponder about the slow or resistant ones.

It's a huge industry/hobby.

In the time it takes to convince a stubborn consumer of something they will learn (or cause them to fail or leave the hobby)... we can help several/many more folks who are willing to listen/learn or consider alternates in their information gather process.

I can appreciate that the familiar names in this thread do this indeed as y'all travel the boards and help folks/share opinions.

And I sincerely do not want to see any good merchant fail. Quite the contrary!

I would encourage this chap to consider such feedback. If potential consumers have reservations, founded or unfounded, do tailor that marketing to correct that. Starting with a product information page that actually has information about the product stating how it works, and not merely that it is just the best thing since sliced bread. Seriously

[mhltcob]

when i talked to him at IMAC, he said "it works instantly 85% of the time". and it works on tumors. I mean i havn't heard of a product that will change how we keep fish since the eco aqualizer, which "won product of the year in 2003". It seems a bit on the expensive side, but then again arn't all good products?

[Anthony Calfo]

If I'd had more tea with breakfast, I think I would have become suddenly and spastically incontinent with that eco-aqualizer comment.

Fantastically funny

[benf]

I would like to hear from someone who has used the ich product. I did notice in their ad that they covered themselves by saying if it doesnt work"There are two strains of ich that are hard to fight" and they could easily say you must have had one of the 2 difficult strains.

[mhltcob]

I didn't reallize that their were "multiple strains" of ich. Maybe cryptocaryon irritans has evolved into a bacteria? Maybe when you add marc weiss reef vital DNA it makes the parasite morph into a super parasite. As far as i know copper kills both "difficult strains", and costs a heck of alot less, and you can probably set up a quarantine tank with the money you save to use it in. maybe the water and food coloring in the "no sick fish" medication isn't effective against "both strains", but if you add another 50$ bottle you would get better results.

[Anthony Calfo]

ahhh... very good point! (seriously here)

A Qt tank is less expensive and has many other merits. Magic meds can't physically remove pests and predators (Aiptasia, fish lice/isopods, predatory worms, snails, and other various undesirable hitchhikers).

That's assuming that said magic med can(!) cure every known pathogen so as to even begin to fairly assert the claim of no QT needed (with regard only for pathogens). And I know of no such proven silver bullet of a med.

A bare bottomed ten gallon tank new costs $10-ish (less on sale or mere dollars used). A sponge filter and small air pump for QT style (sterilizable) filtration plus aeration. Thermometer. Plastic plant or PVC pipe (again... non-porous objects for sanitation). Hang on heater if room is not climate controlled. Glass cover (piece of plastic, whatever.

We are talking well under $100 for a QT tank with lights. And that's a gross underestimate. With sales and/or used gear... it often is under $50. And one of the the best (and most necessary) investments of any long-term successful marine hobbyists.

To run without QT for your new livestock is like playing Russian roulette, as sometimes say... nobody wins the game - some (aquarists) just get to play (risk) a little longer than others

Tragedies of introduced predators and disease can be removed or at least reduced drastically by proper QT protocol. Merely 4-8 weeks of patience.

You'll be hard pressed to find a single hatchery, fishery, public aquarium or professional aquarist that does not use QT. That says a lot.

[Anthony Calfo]

Today I received an e-mail from Tyler of "No Sick Fish" that was most impressive. It was clear, frank, considerate and to me... desirous of sharing information about his/their product in a constructive response to questions/concerns from aquarists.

He has invited me to share his message, and in support of merchants intent on doping good business... I am quite happy to do so.

My thanks and kudos to Tyler/No Sick Fish for taking a patient and professional approach to legitimate consumer questions/concerns for their product.

Best of luck/life to all

Anthony

-----

The pasted content of Tyler's address follows here verbatim. Again... kudos for the effort. It will be great to watch the product/company and product evolve. Offering samples to aquarists (without sales... impressive) at national trade shows is indeed good business and good faith. Quite so... confidence in their product.

If any aquarists have tried the product and care to offer an honest/respectful review of it... it is welcome here.

From Tyler at NSF:

"When I say “No QT� I am not implying that you never need to qt your
fish. I think quarantining is very important in fish care. When I say
“No QT� I am implying that you do not need to quarantine your fish in
order to use our product. You do not need to QT your fish because it is
a reef safe product. It is meant to be used in the show tank.

I agree that QT is a proven method and it does work. When you cant
quarantine your fish, or you don’t want to...etc etc... this is a very
good option.

“No water changes necessary� We are not implying that you never have to
change your water again, nor would I ever recommend that. We do not
sell “Fish never get sick again medicine�. When we say “no water
changes� we are implying that you do not need to change or do partial water
changes with our medicine before you begin or when you are done. Many
customers have asked us if they need to change their water when they
are finished to remove the chemical from the water. No they do not,
that is the only thing that is implied by “no water changes�

When I was at IMAC I did not try to sell one bottle. All I did was
give away the product. The medicine sells it self. Every one at IMAC that
has taken the chance to try the medicine loved it. I received
telephone call’s stating “I know why the medicine costs so much� “ It’s the best stuff I have ever used�"

[NicoleC]

Alas, I am very skeptical of a medicine that does not state the active ingredient. (Or ANY ingredients.) Tyler may have the best intentions, but without such a critical piece of information, no such product will go in my tank.

He may want to reconsider his ad campaign. A flashing banner that says "No Water Changes - Ever!" is unlikely to attract complimentary interest from informed hobbyists.

[Anthony Calfo]

very well stated, Nicole.

Indeed... I am known to regularly make the statement that, "I won't eat anything that doesn't have a list of ingredients in it... and I sure won't put any such thing in my aquarium with countless lives depending on me, and many thousands of dollars invested."

On reply to Tyler, I have respectfully asked him to share information about the nature of his product. If not the ingredients, then the nature of the matter at least (antibiotic, homeopathic like yeast cell derivatives, etc, etc.).

Time will tell if this is a good product or not. There is lots of cause for concern at this point from superlative claims that are not clearly defined.

Tyler does indeed seem to be aware of consumer doubts here.

[Randall_James]

Just kind of disheartening to see ReefCentral sell access to the members here on a product of "dubious" content. Perhaps if there were a line of members that had in fact tried the "Stuff" and could vouch for it. I fear the same problems faced by any Ich treatment. "I feed my fish ginger for 1 week and the ich went away" (sound familiar?) Next time I will feed my fish taco sauce for a week and scare the ich away with capcium oil.

[Anthony Calfo]

from an advertising/sales perspective... RC cannot easily prejudice against sponsors that meet the same requirements as others.

Nor should they IMO.

The forums are for discussions, the banners are for advertising that supports the forums (read: pays the bills).

There is also the issue of who gets to say what products have value and which do not?

I see your point my friend, but RC is just not in the business of consumer product testing, and as such... cannot pass judgment.

Again... that's what productive forum discussions are for

[Randall_James]

Well one can only hope that the product does no harm I suppose. I do know that RC does in fact limit advertising in the forums however to only "fish" related business.
I am however in the group with NicoleC that does not induce unlabeled products into my tanks. Just so hard to substantiate claims made by a product like this one or any other for ich.

[Anthony Calfo]

understood... the claims here are a very far stretch, the defined support to back the claims weak at best, and the marketing can be perceived as misleading.

But... the response by Tyler and their presence at IMAC was very considerate and professional. Very different from what we have seen in years past from dubious product manufacturers.

I appreciate and respect Tyler's intent and attempt.

Always optimistic... let's see how it develops in time. If some significant part of the product turns out to be useful/effective as claimed... it will/may well be worth a look. I'm not sold yet though.

[Nagel]

Originally posted by Randall_James
Just kind of disheartening to see ReefCentral sell access to the members here on a product of "dubious" content.

I can speak a little on this issue, but I am afraid that I am limited in what I can say (for obvious legal reasons). RC has in the past removed sponsors whose products proved to be, well, lets just say not completely truthful. The sponsorships do pay the bills, and we cannot test every sponsors product, but a quick search of RC would show that Mods and Staffers are often outspoken about snake oils and such, and we are in favor of better husbandry practices. We like to give products a chance to prove themselves, when they cannot, or they fall drastically short of their claims, it is possible for RC to remove a sponsor, and it has been done in the past...

[Hobster]

In all fairness, it should be noted that there are many products out there for aquarium/reef use that do not list the active ingredients. Some are from well known respected companies and some are well known and perhaps not so respected. There are several of these products that do in fact work. I guess only time and a track record will tell.

[Randall_James]

Originally posted by Hobster
In all fairness, it should be noted that there are many products out there for aquarium/reef use that do not list the active ingredients. Some are from well known respected companies and some are well known and perhaps not so respected. There are several of these products that do in fact work. I guess only time and a track record will tell.

And there is not a one of them I will put in a tank that has thousands of dollars of livestock in it. I suppose it is a matter of personal preference but my investment is not subjected to "unknown" compounds that may be quoted as "Reef Safe" It is just such a fragile environment and the potential for problems so high (is enough trouble keeping a happy place without adding unknown chemicals)


I am not sure what chemical additives from "Well known respected companies" you would be referring to. Could you enlighten me on a few of these additives that do not have the ingredient list and are also known to work?

I personally would LOVE to have an additive for ich that is both effective and reef safe. It would save countless hours and dollars in copper, hyposalinity, qt tank time etc. If I had a steady supply of ich infested fish, I would gladly create half dozen tanks and start experimenting. I just have no way to control or even diagnose with certainty the cruddy parasite to start with.

[NSF]

In response to mhltcob about what he said I said at IMAC. "It works instantly 85% of the time". That is incorrect, and he has miss spoken. My customers have told me that 70-80% of the time the ich is no longer visible with in 24hours. This does not mean that the ich is gone, and it is important to continue treatment to get rid of all of the ich still remaining in the tank in different stages of there life cycle.

This does not imply that every user will have the same success with such a speedy treatment. For example, I had a customer call in a couple weeks ago that was treating for ich. He was on his 5th day of treatment and the ich was still present, He said that he was going to continue treating after the seven days was up. He did get back to me, and told me that everything worked out. 10-11 days of treatment. Every tank and fish is different, and will have different response times. For most cases treatment will be successful within the first week of treatment.


Mhltcob also misspoke about our claim on tumors. I don’t think he read things very close on our website or listened very closely to me at IMAC. On the website it was stated very clearly that results are not in favor of the fish healing itself from a tumor. Using our medicine we found that we did have a positive effect on some fish that had problems with tumors. Some successful, and many others unsuccessful. Our intentions by placing the tumor medicine on the market were not to cash in. We listed the tumor medicine, to let consumers know that there was hope if they were fighting a tumor on the fish. We have never said that it works great, or that there is even a 35% chance that it will work on their fish. For the consumers that were looking for a product to help, we decided to list the product. We never meant to trick any customers. I thought it was stated very clearly. Since then we have decided to take it off to eliminate the possibility of confusing consumers.


We all know that you can set up a QT and treat your fish with copper. It works, and is a proven method. The biggest problem for some users is that you have to be able to catch your fish in order to transfer them to a separate tank. If and when you do finally catch the fish, it is probably completely stressed out. In this stressful state the chances of survival have gone down a considerable amount, and even more after you transfer it to a new tank.

Our medicine is also used by customers that have a QT tank set up and can catch there fish more easily, but don’t want to wait 4-6 weeks while they treat there fish in a separate tank in the basement.

So when ever your tired of chasing your fish around your tank, knocking down coral or even taking apart your tank and waiting 4-6 weeks during treatment and maintaining two tanks, you can use our medicine and be done with the mess most likely in one week.
The following is one of the emails that I received today. Emails like this come in every day from new customers that have used our medication. Our company is growing because of satisfied customers who are spreading the word.


-----Original Message-----
From: Billy B [mailto: @RiptidesReef.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:14 AM
To: sales@nosickfish.com; Sales
Subject: Contact Request
Name: Billy B.

Customer Type: Retail Customer

Email: @RiptidesReef.com

Phone: 2148944

How they heard about us: Other - @charter.net

Hi, It\'s Billy from Riptide\'s Reef. We just received your product and I wanted to thank you for the expidited shipping. I was under the impression it would take a couple of weeks to recieve the items if we did\'nt choose express shipping. We have\'nt had the opportunity to use the transit yet. We are also a small company trying to grow but I\'ll let you know after we use it. We had a whipfin fairy wrasse with ich and used the ich treatment you included in our order and it cleared up in 24 hours. The fish system is connected to 300 gallons of coral tanks and harmed nothing! Thank you for your professionalism and please give credit to the gentleman who suggested your products. His name is Randy and I included his email address. Sincerely, Billy B www.RiptidesReef.com