From Full Blown Acros to Marine Plants - Need Guidance

[wingd]

I currently have an 120 acro tank with duel 400 HQI's that I am thinking of converting into a sea grass tank for a change of pace. Love the acros, but I have had them for almost four years now. Ready for a change.

Do you have any suggested reading for husbandry on sea grass. i was hoping to set up a biotope, but honestly don't know what all is in that biotope. Was sort of thinking of, pistol shrimp, gorgonians, euphilia, maybe a burrowing anenome with clownfish, some sort of small fish.

Any thought on literature or appropriate inhabitants of a sea grass area. Want to make it interesting so I don't have a 120 gallon fuge. I am also thinking of putting on my old 175 watt halides with 6500K Iwasaki with duel 110 vho's with actinics over the 120.

Am I heading down the wrong path??

Thank you for any thoughts or guidance.

[Triterium]

Id go with the 6500Ks for sure and a DSB. For more info on seagrasses, go to Samalas webpage...lots of good links

[dlemons1]

bump

[Samala]

Wing - you sent me an email but I thought I would post here so others could see it if they searched.

Like Triterium, go with the 6500K's. Plants and macroalgae are going to favor the more daylight type bulbs in the 5000 - 10,000K bulb range. They seem to do best in my tanks under 6700K, but you could conceivably go higher if you really have a yen for blue tanks.

Honestly I think the biggest obstacle in going from Acro to seagrass is going to be all in your head, literally. The environment you are reproducing in these two biotopes are incredibly distinct. In Acropora captive reefs we try to get out as many nutrients as conceivably possible to keep the zooxanthellae populations down and our corals colored up. You'll find that, long term, in a seagrass and macro dedicated tank, that some kind of nutrient dosing will eventually be required.. quite likely nitrogen dosing of a sort (such as calcium nitrate or potassium nitrate sources).

I think the amount of light over the tank will be good, but I dont have much experience with MH. VHO's I know from work but I dont use them at home for the heat problems they create. You will certainly need to figure out how much heat the lights will create and how this loads the tank thermally. I am starting to suspect that if a seagrass tank goes much over 75F you start to see nuisance algae.

Why might this be possible? We know in the wild that seagrass grows in cycles when the nutrients, light and water temperature are all at ideal levels. The most productive times seem to focus around late spring and early summer, and early fall. The heat the shallows and grass beds take on in the late summer seems to cause massive algae blooms and leaf kill. It may also be that with all the plant growth, the water movement into the seagrass beds may be cut down dramatically.. which could also inspire some algae growth.

Point is, I would setup the tank and see how the lights contribute to the heat and work from there.

Another distinct difference between coral and grass.. would be water movement itself. You'll need less overall flow than a typical Acro reef, but you still need enough movement in the tank to discourage epiphytic algae growth on the grass leaves. Generally if 90% of my grass leaves are swaying, I'm happy with the flow rates. In a tank my size, its easily achievable with a powerhead or two.

Triterium had a great system worked out with water movement mimicking waves, I would be tempted to try that in such a large tank as you'll be doing. Hopefully he'll post it here to give you an idea of what he had going.

Other than that, if you had been a recent convert to bare bottom or starboard bottom'ed tanks.. you'll have to go back to DSB ideas. The thing is, a DSB isnt exactly a DSB in a grass tank. Seagrasses pump O2 down their roots and charge the surrounding substrate with O2 in the process. This stretches out for a few millimeters around the roots. In a heavily planted grass tank, you eventually get to a point where there are no effective anoxic zones which make a DSB do all its supposed to do.

However, this isnt a bad thing really, the plants will scavange all the N and phosphate you throw at them if they're healthy and happy.

For depth, shoot for the gold standard 6".. more if you want. I typically recommend a medium grained aragonite bed. Adding lagoonal mud to the bottom layer seems to help the tank get started, but doesnt seem to be necessary.

Suggesting some animals for the biotope is really a broad topic. Most of the grasses that are available are coming from the Caribbean, so you might consider a field guide to work on for this. I'll ponder some usable inhabitants in a tank your size though and post some ideas.

I'm really starting to consider taking on a book project here on seagrass stuff.. there's so much to say with all my experiments and so much to talk about. Once I get more progressive series pictures from my tanks I may honestly consider it.

>Sarah

[Samala]

DLemons.. I see you've bumped quite a few threads here.. I thought I would just let you know that this forum moves a lot more slowly than most others here on RC because the community we attract is a bit smaller. We're around, we'll answer, it just takes a day or two instead of a minute or two. Less like a chat room, more like a true message board.

>Sarah

[wingd]

I do appreciate everyone's input.

Thinking of having a long tenacle anenome in the tank that would bore down into the substrate. Read some about them in Joyce Wilkerson's clownfish book. Thoughts? I know these are native to the pacific, but all the same, I undestand they do come from mud flats, grass areas, etc.

Went to the fish store this weekend and traded in my acro's for store credit. No turning back now.

[Seahorsewisprer]

Originally posted by Samala
In Acropora captive reefs we try to get out as many nutrients as conceivably possible to keep the zooxanthellae populations down and our corals colored up.
>Sarah

Since I have been dosing nitrate (not yet PO4, hopefully one day!), I really have not noticed any change in the color of my SPS! I actually think they look better not surrounded by that red velvet carpet we call cyano! I'm beginning to wonder if the reefers might be wrong on this one!

[Triterium]

wingd, you could get some flower or condy anemones (caribbean species). I have two of each in my tank and they are beautiful. The ones I have are hardier than any other anemone ive tried. I had a LTA die on me and a BTA that has been alive for 6 months but just doesn't do as well. The flowers are my favorite. The will bury thier foot in the sandbed and find something to attach to (bottom, nearby rock etc). But they are fish eaters and bottom-dwelling fish might get eaten.

[wingd]

I have a pair of true percs that I would like to do an anenome with. Understand that caribean's don't host. I had the percs when I had the acros so no anenome historically as they tend to walk and sting. One of the reasons I wanted to do some sea grass was the small fish and sand bed activity. I am reluctant to put in anything that would eat them up.

[Triterium]

Then you could do the some condylactis. Every clown ive owned has paired up with one of these anemones. I currently have a damsel that stays in it. They are not as sticky as the flower and probably wont eat any fish. But having the clowns already destroys your biotope so you might as well go with a pacific species :P haha jK

[Samala]

Well.. maybe he can take a trip to Japan or another one of those beautiful pacific spots with so much culture. Grab some grass, convince customs he's not insane, etc etc etc. There is a Zostera japonica I believe.. a pacific version of our US eelgrass, quite like turtle grass. And there are a few super cool Halophilas out that way.. and there's Posidonia oceanica too, for a bigger version of turtlegrass. It could be good!

Still, you dont have to be entirely true to biotope. Just fit in where you see fit. I think you'll have lots of LR leftover from the acro reef - yes? Keep a pile of it and make yourself a coral outcropping in the tank. The surrounding sand bed area could be home for a jawfish or two and then you could have a seagrass meadow going on either side. It could be the sweetest looking tank. If I had a large tank, that's how I'd go.

Plus, if you have the coral outcropping, you can do some of the more lagoonal species of coral (I think zoo's and mushrooms would be happy), as well as hopefully get a site for an anemone to host for the clowns.

I am envisioning great things here!
>Sarah

[perky]

imo, have a DSB with a couple pieces of LR scattered around. Have lots of sea grass and for live stock, I would go with the following:

Fish:

amblygbius sp
a small tang like a kole etc
shrimp fish
small reef-safe wrasses (sixline, four line)

Inverts:

Couple of cleaners
peppermint shrimp
mythrax crabs
snails
hermits

HTH

mike

[Samala]

Wing.. this link might be somewhat useful, though its for the Caribbean and not the Pacific which I am beginning to feel you are more interested in.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/southf...rass/Life.html

In addition.. http://www.worldseagrass.org/species.pdf gives a nice overview of where in the world each of the recognized seagrass species grows.

I see nothing wrong with using the available seagrasses which are coming almost entirely from the Caribbean in a tank meant to have Pacific fish and invertebrate life. I think you will be hard pressed to obtain Zostera marina, only because there are few reliable beds left of it on the east coast.. I have no idea how the west coast of the US stands with this species. I saw lots of it off of Long Island (NY) this past weekend, but I think Fish and Wildlife would have a fit.. and I didnt find any usable fragments on shore (and boy did I get sunburned trying to find them!).

The more exotic Zostera, Phyllospadix, Halophila's.. again.. hard to find unless you have connections on the West Coast or are planning a trip to the Pacific. (If you plan a trip to hunt seagrass I want to come too!) Same for Posidonia, Amphibolis and the more exotic Syringodium - though S. filiforme is common enough from the Caribbean and you could substitute.

Anywho.. I thought that would help. It might be useful to mention that many many many species of reef fish start life in the grass beds surrounding coral heads in the flats. They function mainly as nurseries for baby fish - which is a good reason to be concerned about keeping seagrass beds around.

>Sarah

[jmanrow]

Wingd,
I hope you have found info on the burrowing anemone by now. Make sure it is not of the order Ceriantharia, or "tube" anemone... they are capable of stinging and eating any small fish, including clownfish.

[piercho]

My LTA (M. doorensis) died after 2 years. It stopped eating and eventually, after several weeks of shrinking, died exposing black messenterials filaments. But my origonal idea for my tank was about the same as yours - feature a hosting anemone with clownfish as a centerpiece. I also wanted rocks and coral as well, and there were 2 problems with this. 1st, the LTA has a big tentacle sweep and can burn coral and clams. So it will eat up most of the footprint of a smaller tank. 2nd, the clownfish I chose, Premnas, are ferocious diggers, the female could move quarts of sand a day from around the anemone. This stirred up detritus-laden sand up on the rocks and coral.

I don't want to deter you from keeping a host anemone. Some people keep them successfully for many years - decades. There are questions about the long-term ramifications of harvest of anemones from the wild, and you may want to read about this before you elect to buy one.

Here is what I know about LTAs. Given a fine-sediment bed and a decent anchor, mine never travelled. The beds sold as "sugar-fine" are fine, I used a silica bed from local Zostera flats. You can push down a section of 6" ABS or PVC to provide an anchor, or you can put a big rock down and fill the bed in around it where you intend to put the anemone. The anemone will grab the anchor and bury its column in the sand by work the foot down the anchor to the bottom of the tank. Ideally, the sand should be deep enough for the anemone to entirely withdraw its body under the sand if threatened.

The pictures I've seen of them in the wild show them on tidal flats, just laying on the bottom. I think that they benfit from quite a strong current, though.

General guidance from Ron Shimek's little Host Anemone Secrets book: the diameter of the oral disk should be at least 3X the length of the hosted fish, this keeps the fish from loving the anemone to death. Feed as often as it will feed, until it has reached the maximum size desired. An anemone that moves is an anemone that does not have its basic requirements for survival met.

As far as grass, I like the short grass Samala sent me, Stargrass. Isn't that one pandemic? Will not stand up to robust grazers like rabbitfish, though. Just fine with bristletooth tangs like Koles, in fact my Kole does a swell job of keeping my seagrass clean of epiphytes. Manatee grass also does well, but grows looooong and skinny so its best for a tall tank. I've found Manatee is resistant to most grazers except Diadema urchins. Shoal grass is shorter and fine-bladded, and nice grass but not as robust as Manatee grass for me.

Unfortunately, Iwasaki does not make a 175W 6500k. You can get the 150W as a DE, Mogul, or Spot though. I think you'll need and M81 or M131 ballast to light those, I don't think you can cheat and use the 175W ballast you have unless its a 175W/150W electronic. They 175W magnetic probe start ballast won't work. If you have the probe start ballast and don't want to get new ballasts, you might try the XM 10KKs. I think they make a 175W version and the PAR on the XMs is similar to the 6500Ks.

Some coral I've found that do fine on sand are the Favids I've tried. Good to put a rubble pile unded them so they don't sink into the sand. Branching Porites and Montipora do swell just up off the sand. I even keep some Pocs, Stylos and Acros. My tank is concieved as a patch reef abutting a seagrass bed in a lagoon. Udotea is a good algae to try in the sand along with the grass, IME. Penicillius has been harder for me, but I still get the random head after over a year in the tank.

[Samala]

Its H. decipiens that is more pan-tropical, not so much H. engelmanni. I think stargrass is only from Caribbean basin. Paddlegrass (H. decipiens) has been near to impossible to find. I have a struggling little bit of it in a prop tank that has refused to do well so far even with much babying. H. johnsonni is in the same state. I think these two species are just more fragile than the stargrass.

The nice thing about the stargrass, is that it is a nicely colonizing species. It spreads much much more quickly than Halodule, Syringodium or Thalassia.

>Sarah