Corals Disolving

[farside]

I have had an establised tank for (2) years now but have started losing zoas, shrooms and a recent meat brain LPS. I do a 10% water change every (2) weeks and add only Julian Sprung's sea element solution. My tank is a 75 gallon Jetstream with a Euro Reef skimmer, but I also use a Tidepool II filtering sytem with no problems for these past (2) years. My parameters are as follows:

sg---------1.023
pH------------8.2
temp--------79.7
Ammonia--.088 ppm (could be caused by die off)
Nitrite------ 0
Nitrate----- 0
Calcium----460ppm

But here is the kicker!

dKH----------16.0+
Alkalinity----5.71 meg/l +

All tests are made using Salifert

The only recent change I have made was (2) weeks ago: I replaced the (4) 100 watt bulbs in my VHO lighting system: (2) actinic and (2) daylight). I have had lot grandular type green algae on the glass that looks like dust when I use magnet to clean. I have also noticed gas bubbles forming on long strands of algae and quit a few green bubble algae on rocks. This isn't the first time I have changed bulbs, just the first time problems arising.

I do believe it to be a chemical unbalance somewhere, but I am not a chemist. My calcium looks okay but the dKH and alkalinity test are off the charts and I am afraid to add a calcium buffer. I am totally bewildered and need some help. Bear with me as I am ready to head to Indy to talk to Premium Aquatics for there input. I may not be able to respond to any thoughts right away.

[wahshk]

What about phosphate?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you using tap water?

Have you added anything to control pH or boost alkalinity?

5.7+ meq/L? What does that mean? If you titrate with a second sytringe and add the values together, what do you get?

[farside]

I forgot to mention that I did a 20% water change, retested the next (2) days and readings remained the same. Phosphate is at .05 ppm and I do not believe that was high enough to cause a serious problem.

Randy,
The 5.71 was just a conversion for the reading I got using the dKH of 16+ . They are one and the same. Also, I use RO water that I purchase from the store, not tap water. I have never added anything to control pH or alkalinity.

Still need some help from your end as to the possibilities of what problems might exist. I did take a sample vial of my water for testing to Premium Aquatics today. I do have their findings which surprised me very much. Come to find out that my calcium level in my tank was at 165 ppm instead of the 460 ppm which I found when I tested with my salifert test. It just so happens that I also took my test kit and found it to be expired or out-dated. (Another lesson the all aquarists should heed). Do to my not paying any attention to expiration date I may have caused the loss of some of my softies and invertabrates. My reading on dKH was almost on as they read 18/20. In other words, my calcium was way to low which caused alkalinity to rise off the charts!!!

Premium Aquatics recommended the following:

1) Add Kent Turbo Calcium (calcium chloride) 1/8 tsp/50 gal each day until I get my calcium up to 400+ and my alkalinity to 8/12 DKH

2) After above is reached, each day add the Ocean's blend (2) part system (equal amount of calc and alk buffers)

Again, on my part it was not very proper reef keeping and this is why people lose their interest due to their negligence. I never intended to harm my tank but you have to pay attention to every detail when when caring for a salwater tank. I thought I was except test kit was "OUT DATED"

Please acknowledge what Premium Aquatics told me to do as I want to get this right. They have a wonderful person in Jeremy who gave me an hour of his time to test water and to gather items that I needed to reconcile my tank.

Let me know what you think and thanks!



Still need some possible solutions

[Habib]

I doubt that the calcium and alk kits have expired even if they are past the exp dat. Although contaminating them or allowing to evaporate the solution can give false readings.

Having said that, do you use the same test vial for both the calcium and alk kit? Doing so can give false high alk readings.

I would test the never used water change water to see what readings you get. ALso knowing the brand of salt together with the data is useful.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You also need to get a true alk reading. Even in dKH, titrate to the end point even if it takes more than one syringe and add the values together.
I'm suspicious that the calcium isniot really that low.

What salt mix?

What does it read with that kit?

Don't add tons of stuff yet!

[farside]

Date on calcium test kit showed 1997, this was not on the box but on the how to sheet. Date could have been date the instruction sheet was last updated. I do not use the same vial for both tests. They are used separately and washed with hot water after each use. The calcium test was the only one that did not give the true reading. The alk/dkh tested the same with both Premiums and my test kit. By the way, the Salifert calcium test liquid (Ca-3) was batch AC-B1167 if that is any help. I am not blaming Salifert as I endorse your product only.

Randy,
I did use (2) syringes with the Salifert tip on. There was the usual air bubble but the first syringe used the 1.0 ml and the second syringe used .2 ml before color changed to pinkish/orange from the original blue. I guess this gives me a reading of 19.2 dKH as I used a total 1.20 ml of KH. My salt mix is instant ocean and my substrate is pure caribbean aragonite at a depth of 3". What does your question mean right after you asked what salt mix? Do you want readings right after I mix salt before putting into tank?

I bought a new salifert calcium test kit that expires in 2010. I have added only 1/8 tsp of the Kent Turbo calc and and am going to retest in the morning but I will not add anything else as you suggested>

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was just asking what brand salt. Try measuring the alkalinity in the salt mix to see if it is a bad batch (or maybe a test problem). I can't see why the tank is that high if you are not adding anything to boost it.

[killagoby]

I'd use part 1 of B-Ionic's mix to fix the problem you are having w/ your alk.

[farside]

Before testing the water this morning I would like to ask another question which may be out of line with this particular problem, but here it goes: Could my substrate (pure caribbean aragonite) be breaking down? I have heard that you can no longer buy this fine sand! Sand surely can break down chemically, but again, I am no chemist. I just need to get this under control and learn a lesson from all of your replies. I will check my salt mix with old test kit and new one! Just stay in contact until I get the help to solve this problem and not lose anything else.

[farside]

Ran my Ca test on tank water and newly mixed water with the old and new Salifert Ca test kits:

New Test Kit--Tank water--.68--160ppm
New Test Ki---New mix------.36--320ppm

Old Test Kit---Tank water---.70--150ppm
Old Test Kit---New mix-------.34--330ppm

This shows me (2) things: There was nothing wrong with the old test kit even with different directions, plus I also misread first reading. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with my salt mix brand.

The problem is inside my tank causing a lot of frustration. Note this reading was after last nights addition of 1/8 tsp of Kent Turbo calc. It is so low that it seem I have to keep adding in moderation and testing each time. Let me know what to do next!

Thanks, everybody

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could my substrate (pure caribbean aragonite) be breaking down?

Not enough to impact your readings.

OK, assuming the kits are right, then the plan is to add calcium chloride (like the Turbo calcium)to boost calcium to 420 ppm. It will take a ton, so ignore the dosing guidelines. Raise it by about 100 ppm per day max. This calculator shows how much to use:

Reef Chemicals Calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

[killagoby]

Great Calculator! Thank you...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Let us know what happens.

[farside]

Randy, I want to thank you for all your help so far. It is much appreciated. I have not added the abundance of calcium chloride needed yet, but I do plan on starting in the morning. Your calculator is a blessing as I was dosing by the directions on the Kent Turbo Chart: 1/8 tsp/50gal. When I used the calculator, entering the Kent Tubo blend, the answer came up 205.2 grams or aprox 41 tsp to raise calcium level from 160 to 420 ppm for a 75 gal tank. I will heed your advice and only raise calcium about 100 ppm/day. I know I am not out of woods yet, but this is a tremendous start. There are still questions I want to ask you, and will after this effort is tried. Again thanks!!!!

[killagoby]

Originally posted by farside
Randy, I want to thank you for all your help so far. It is much appreciated. I have not added the abundance of calcium chloride needed yet, but I do plan on starting in the morning. Your calculator is a blessing as I was dosing by the directions on the Kent Turbo Chart: 1/8 tsp/50gal. When I used the calculator, entering the Kent Tubo blend, the answer came up 205.2 grams or aprox 41 tsp to raise calcium level from 160 to 420 ppm for a 75 gal tank. I will heed your advice and only raise calcium about 100 ppm/day. I know I am not out of woods yet, but this is a tremendous start. There are still questions I want to ask you, and will after this effort is tried. Again thanks!!!!

I was using Kent products at first but their was so many excess by-products in Coral-Vite that my tank experenced an algae bloom. That's just my experence w/ Kent. I use B-Ionic now to raise my alk and calcium and never had that problem again...

[jdieck]

farside:
Did you tested your new mix water for alkalinity? I am still wondering where the high Alk came from and that could be important to isnure is not an issue with the salt mix batch.
Remember reading about a week ago agout a group who was having issues with high alkalinity in their salt mix.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Your calculator is a blessing

Thank jdieck above. He wrote it.

[farside]

To killagoby: I have already started using the Kent Turbo and will keep an eye out for the algae bloom

To jdieck: Thank you for your formula as it is working as I will explain later. I did check the new salt mix for dKH/alk and got a reading of .18 on syringe giving me a figure of 13.1 dKH or 4.69 meq/l. This seems very high to me, but you and Rany tell me. If it is high it could be caused by me storing the salt in the garage where temp is not contolled. Humidity is high here and I did notice a clumping of the salt probably due to moisture. Let me know if I should discard this salt and buy new.

Randy
I added 10 tsps of Kent Turbo Ca last night and took my readings this morning. The formula worked as it raised the Ca from 160 ppm to 225 ppm or an increase of 65 ppm. Did not test for alk yet as I am sure it will go down as Ca rises. Also, as stated above, reading of alk with new salt mix seemed high.

I will keep this thread open because I am not sure my problem has been solved. With everyone's help, I am learning a lot more as I was just rolling along for (2) years with no problems. What this does do is to teach you that you can't take anything for granted as you have to find the cause of the problems!

Thanks All!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for your formula as it is working as I will explain later. I did check the new salt mix for dKH/alk and got a reading of .18 on syringe giving me a figure of 13.1 dKH or 4.69 meq/l.

Many salt mixes have about 4 meq/L alkalinity in them. Yours is a bit high, but not enough to cause those calcium problems. High (or low) storage temperature cannot raise it. If the alkalinity is not too low on clumped, clear (after settling) salt mix, it is OK to use.

[jdieck]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Your calculator is a blessing

Thank jdieck above. He wrote it.

I have just made it grow. Actually it was MG Kademani who wrote the first version inspired by a similar more simple calculator from Andy Hipkiss Thanks to both of them and to the manufacturers that have given the OK to have them included.

[farside]

Great calculator!!

Last night, added 15 tsps of Kent Turbo Ca and reading this morning is 295 ppm for Ca. After (2) days of Ca addition, the product has raised Ca 130 ppm.

I also tested for Alkalinty and now have a dKH of 15.4 or 5.49 meq/l. This is down from the original dKH of 19.2 reading.

Once I get to the 420 ppm on Ca, where should reading be for alkalinity? This may be a moog point question at this time as I need to concentrate on getting my Ca up. However, alkalinity is dropping and that is a plus!

If the 15 tsps did not raise the ppm as much as the 10 tsp, does this mean I need to wait and take readings 24 hrs after dosage or that the molecular structure is becoming more complex or more concentrated in mixture.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Once I get to the 420 ppm on Ca, where should reading be for alkalinity?

That depends on how long it takes to get there and the demand in the tank. Alkalinity will decline as it is used in the tank, and should soon be in more typical ranges (say, 7-11 dKH).

Calcium readings should be accurate as soon as the additive is mixed in, but don't try to pinpoint the exact day to day values as most kits have a fair amount of testing noise.

[farside]

Another dose of (15) tsps of Kent Turbo:

Ca--------385 ppm
Alk--------14.4 dKH/ 5.14 meq/l

Alkalinity is still very high and I am not sure it will be at the level that is normal when I reach Ca of 420 ppm!! What I have noticed in tank is that some of the corals are expanding more and some zoas that were closed are opening.

Final dose of Kent Turbo will be tonight and I will post readings Tues. Using my original readings of Ca 160 ppm and Alk of 19.2 dKH, what happens to invertebrate, such as, shrimp and anemones?

Thank You---Randy

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So far so good.

Thank You---Randy

You're welcome.

Good luck.