Sump water level

[DitchPlains2]

I having huge issues with maintaining a constant level of water in my display and sump.

I have a 1' bulkhead drain with a 90' elbow, and a ball valve which drains into first baffle area with skimmer.

I have a 3/4 flexible return line hooked to a Quiet One 4400 highhead model return pump.

For whatever reason, I have the most difficult time maintaining a constant sump and display levels. Either I have too much water in my sump, making my skimmer produce watery skimmate, and too little water in display.

Conversely, the other thing that happens it I end up with too much water in the display, resulting in airbubbles being siphoned into the return pump from lack of water in my sump.


I want to hook up my float switch, but sadly, I can't when I never have a constant water line in my sump to determine how much has evaporated.

I just would like to fix this problem, and end up with a consistant and balanced sump and display water line, rather then constant tweaking so I dont flood or drain either.

I would greatly appreciate any help from whomever has had this type of situtaion or could reccomend a solution.


MY tank specs are as follows,

55g high display Tenecor Acrylic tank

a 25g sump

thanks
David

[Spuds725]

I plugged your pump in the head loss calculator and got 785 GPH (no elbows with 3/4 line at 4 feet)

I plugged 785 into the drain size calculator and got a minimum size of 1.16"

both these tools on on the site home page-- http://reefcentral.com/index.php?s=


Its possible you are putting too much flow back to the tank and the two are just too close to each other... I'd put a valve on the discharge of the pump and throttle it back slightly and see what that does....

It might help to have an overflow box around the bulkhead on the tank also.... (to maintain a more constant level).... the flow through the elbow/bulkhead is probably varying slightly right at your return pump flow making the levels fluctuate...

I'm by far not an expert on this but this is just my take on possible problems...


Good luck...

[DitchPlains2]

Spuds, thanks.

Yea I am not sure what the problem is, The drain and the return are on opposite ends of tha tank roughly 30 inches from one another (tank is 36'long)

ok so if with headloss I have only 785 gph, I guess thats not enough to equal the drain amount, so I back off the drain and get too much water in sump.

Any reason why if I back off the drain with the ball valve I can't get a constant water level?

Just seems like its impossible, I guess an overflow box might be best for the situation.

Any other ideas?

[TekCat]

I had the same issue. There are 2 things to be done. First regulate pump's return by using ballvalve (alternatively you can tee off return back to the sump, and put a ball valve there) you can fine tune the rate of what you're pumping back to tank. Second is to have bigger return area in your sump. This would give you a "buffer" water volume while overflow catches up with the pump. .. my $0.02

[DitchPlains2]

thanks yea, I did that a little and it seemed to help, I removed the bafleing which held the drain only in my sump, and that seemed to help, there is a small wall left remaing of it, about 2 or 3 inches high, maybe if I remove that it will create a constant level, I just worry about my ball of cheato being sucked into pump.


any suggestions, how to keep items from being sucked into pump?

[TekCat]

if you remove too many baffles, you might get microbubles into your tank, so, I'd experiment very carefully with that. But to restrict stuff from being sucked off their place you could put an eggcrate to hold whatever you're trying to secure.

What I ended up doing was removing refuge section from sump effectively merging it with return area. My 10G sump was just too small to have it all in there. Also, teeing off return line back to the sump with throttling valve helped alot.

[gbtrain]

You could always use eggcrate for divider to keep Cheato from being sucked into your return pump

[Randall_James]

The recommendation of a T back to the sump is a good idea.

The pump you are running is more than most overflows can physically handle.

A mag7 returning about 500gph is about the edge of most I have played with.

Ideally, the tank skimmer will only return what the pump puts in the tank. If the pump runs to much water back to the tank, you end up with your "bubbles". This is just because the "overflow" just can not return the amount of water being pumped into the tank.
The display level rises just because the drain in inadequate. This could have some bad consequences... (two shower heads in a 1 drain shower, drain can not handle the flow and floods the floor)

on the other side of the issue is "not enough" return pump,

this would only result in "over skimming" of the water in the sump. It should have no effect on tank water levels unless you have an issue with the skimmer overflow itself. (durso air bleed mis-adjusted if you have one). (1 shower head running at a trickle, drain has plenty of room for more)

Do some math
Actual operating gallons of refuge (not tank size but amount of water in the refuge when running)
X 20. This will give you a pretty good idea of how much pump you should be running on the refuge.

[cwegescheide]

I having huge issues with maintaining a constant level of water in my display and sump.

Hold on a minute... You have a ball valve on the drain FROM the tank TO the sump??? I think right there is your problem. The water level in your tank should always remain constant. Evaportation will be noticed from the sump. I would remove the ball valve from your drain from the tank and if anything put it on the return from the sump just in case your pump is too powerful for the plumbing you have.. This is the way I have my plumbing on my 90. I have to throttle back my return a little bit. No problems with water level.

Good luck,

Chris

[DitchPlains2]

I would have no idea where to begin as far as mathmatically figuring out how much is in my fuge when its running, I could give the dimmensions of it, if that helps.

Are you suggesting that if too much water fills the fuge, the skimmer isn't going to work too well, and if too little then it will beoverskimming the water in the fuge, which is a good thing? Am I right here?

Anyways, I could put a valve on the 3/4 return to back off the pump, but when I had the other less powerful quiet one on there the 3000 model, it always overfilled my fuge, strange stuff to me as I thought withheadloss it would be enough.


I guess I am not understanding the mechanics of this thing all to well. I assmued it was simple, buy a return pump equal to drain, minus headloss, somehow thats not what's working. I could use eggcrate like you said, in place of the baffle to hold the chaeto, not a bad idea.

I will se if that helps, but I am worried cause my skimmer isnt working as it used to, thick sludge brownish black, now its barely light brown, and I adjust my valve to produce more dry skimmate, is this because of too much water flowing through sump area?

thanks
David

[DitchPlains2]

If I did this my sump would overflow in seconds, from my 1' drain.
my quiet one 4000 high head would not compensate for the increased flow at all.

Not sure why not but just what I obeserve.

could you explain further?

[TekCat]

Here is the thing.

First of all: Assuming you have a check valve on your return plumbing. When pump is not working. Whatever is in tank up to overflow level should drain in sump and stay there. If it overflows the sump, then you have too much water in the system. Imagine what would happen when the power goes down. So, it doesn't matter what pipe is used in the drain. When water comes down - it comes down (faster or slower no matter).

When you have all of it done, if needed add water to the sump to level that you're comfortable for the case of power failure. Mark that level as "FLOOD THRESHOLD"

Now, when you start your pump, the water in return area gets pumped up, and water level starts to drop there. At some point amount of water getting out of the sump and amount that gets drained from tank equalize. If they don't, than you need to fiddle with the pump's flow rate (T and ballvalve back to sump) until they do. You'll know that the system is in equlibrium when level of water in your return section of the sump stays at the same level.

Mark that level. This is the "NORMAL OPERATING LEVEL". When water evoporates from the system, this is where you will see it, and fill up to it.

Hope this helps

[DitchPlains2]

It sure does, makes it a little more understandable, but again, my problem is never getting the right "dialed" in stable level this takes like magic fingers man, I cant get it right half the time, and spend more then 30 min dialing it in. I guess t valve on my return line might make it easier or harder, unsure, but the idea of makring the lines is a good thought indeed.

thanks sound goos so far. see if it helps any.

David

[Randall_James]

Are you suggesting that if too much water fills the fuge, the skimmer isn't going to work too well, and if too little then it will beoverskimming the water in the fuge, which is a good thing? Am I right here?

In a manner of speaking yes on to much water. What you want in your skimmer is as much virgin top water from the skimmer as you can without putting to much excess in. The water is skimmed and returned to display. Ultimately, all water entering the fuge should be skimmed. (in theory, this will not happen in real world, we just want close is all)

If your fuge is overfilling, you have to much water in the system.

Your fuge should never overfill. Here is the process I use to determine fuge fill level. (pretty easy)

Make sure fuge is real low or empty

Fill display with water (all pumps OFF) until the fuge is about 2 inches from full. (the water will go down the overflow to fill the fuge) This is the most water your system will hold.

Start all the pumps back up and now mark the water level in the FUGE. This is the operating level. Just see how deep the water is and give me the tank dimensions (inches) and we can do the math
L X W X H (H will be the water depth ) all divided by 231 = gallons

You have no need for check valves or anything else to restrict the line from the display to the fuge. This should be left open and no obstructions. If you need to stem the flow TO the display , "T" the pressure line and put a return back to the fuge.

Hope this makes sense, sort of long winded...

[getoyute]

TekCat so where and when would you install a float valve etc... for evaporation in the sump area for automatic top-off.

[TekCat]

Originally posted by getoyute
TekCat so where and when would you install a float valve etc... for evaporation in the sump area for automatic top-off.

I am researching what would work best, gravity or pump driven auto-top off system. I have very small avalable area in my stand, and it is not on top. So, probably I'd go with pump-driven design, by placing fresh water container side by side with my sump.

[RTaylor]

I,m suprised nobody has asked this yet. How is your overflow plumbed? It sounds like you just have a hole near the top of the back panel right? what is on the inside of the tank? strainer? elbows? on the outside do you have an elbow going straight down to the sump?
Pics would be very helpfull

What I am picturing from what I have read here is your drain line is sealed so when your pump fills the tank to the top of the drain line it is creating a syphon. This is why your pump cant handle the incoming drain water. You need to build a Durso or similar to kill the syphon.

[Spuds725]

he sad he had an elbow on a bulkhead in the first post-- which is why I suggested a box around the bulkhead-- as the 1" elbow might restrict flow due to fluid dynamics in such a small skimming section

cutting back the pump flow should help--- I don't know why he has a valve on the line going down to the sump from the tank??? Pump flow back to the tank sets your drain flow back to the sump--up to the capacity of the drain--I think he might be over thinking this---

I do agree he might have too much water in the system and not a big enough return section

I think a drawing in MS paint might help

[DitchPlains2]

here's my drain. I hope this really helps explain my problem I will take more pics if necessary.

[Randall_James]

you need to build a horizonal skimmer and attach it to the inside of the tank and remove the elbow and screen.

The ball valve should be wide open ALWAYS and the only reason to even have it on there is to be able to remove the sump with the water level above the drain level. It should never be used to limit water flow PERIOD...

The bulkhead is so low that you are going to have problems unless you have a mammoth refuge. At 3 inches or so below water surface it is going to do a lot of draining

The horizontal overflow will work to correct this also as it will limit the amount of water that can drain down when the pumps are all off (provided it is sealed correctly)

The overflow needs to be at least 2.5 to 4 inches tall/1 inch wide/ and 6" long

You want it to be as tall as practical so that the water level of the display is where it will operate, not overflow and not drain to much back when the pumps are off.

If you need a diagram just shout, sure someone can whip one up in a couple minutes

[dtbigstik2]

This is RTaylor;

My predictions were correct. you are creating a syphon. What you need to do is replace the elbow that is on the outside of the tank with a Tee (Durso method) but you will need an overflow box around the inside elbow or else the tank level will sit about midpoint of the elbow. Or you can turn the elbow that is inside the tank 180 degrees so the strainer points up, you will still probably need the Tee.

If no air is constantly allowed to get in the drain line you will start a syphon. (Carlson surge device).

You may still have to dial back the pump, but never valve the drain.

I would try the second option first (tee & turned elbow),but I would eventually plan on making an overflow box for it.

Spud; elbow on bulkhead doesn't really explain much.

[Spuds725]

Originally posted by dtbigstik2

Spud; elbow on bulkhead doesn't really explain much.

Agreed-- I assumed he had it pointed up is all-- looks like he was trying to set drain flow with yhe valve to maintain water level-- can't be done-- I'd turn that elbow up at least for now and open up that valve.

[DitchPlains2]

I did and used to have it up 180*, it made no difference, it still overfilled my sump. I am frustrated because I did have it up well at an angle and it still drained too much, but maybe I did somethign wrong. My reason for having it down now is to reduce the noise level in my studio, the sound of a flushing toilet seems to annoy me and my gf pretty bad.


I love the idea of a horizontal overflow, I read it in Calfo's book, but I would love to see a good diagram of one to help me along, then I can build from acrylic and glue it to the inside of tank np.

Thanks so much for all the help, sometimes a pic does say a thousand words.

[cwegescheide]

OH! I didn't realize the overflow was like that!!

[DitchPlains2]

I am up late tinkering, and decided to remove the elbow and although I had to tweak the drain valve it seems to have abaited the equilibirum problem.

However, its not a permanent solution. I need a good plan or drawing for a horizontal overflow box, and durso pipe for it.

I will keep my setup as is, until I have the overflow. hopefully this should help things a stablize a bit.


any more suggestions, feel free I am all ears guys.


David