dinoflagelates are ruining my reefing expearience

[Mackie]

OK I have been a good boy, 10% water changes weekly. RO/DI system for my water, Bullet skimmer. MH/actinic lighting, bulbs changed yearly. refugium with chelato lighted with CF on a reverse schedule from my main tank. 4" sand be in refugium and tank (both beds a year old and show signs of life) The tank is 7 years old. I feed very sparingly. Ph is 8.1 night and up to 8.5 day. Photo period is 12 hours actinics, 6 hours MH (10000k 175 W in a 75 gal tank) limited vertebrates (powder brown and purple tang, single small perc clown (its mate just swan-dived through the only gap in my canopy) 2 crocea clams, various SPS and LPS and a number of soft corals. live rock occupies at least 1/2 of my tank but is is 5- 7 years old.

I just discontinued my canister filter to see it was just a ditrius trap and not helping the over all chemistry. Also I just started ozone. Redox meter read 150 when I started now it is at 320 and I have the set point at 350.

Nitrate/nitrite/phos/ammonia all essentially undetectable. sg = 1.24. Clean up crew is not as populated as I wish, I think the dinos are killing my snails. when doing my water changes I vacuumed up as much dinos - ditrius as possible.

Based on extensive review of this website I think I am doing everything humanly possible and have spent a small fortune but still I have a skim of dinos covering everything!

the only thing I haven't tested is silicate levels (just ordered the test kit) and I don't test the water coming out of my RO/DI unit. It is supposed to be a high- silicate removal system. I change the filters regularly and the RO membrane and DI cartridge every 2 years.

this is very frustrating. I see others with beautiful tanks and they hardly do anything!

Is it possible I am starving my tank of nutrients too much. My fish and corals grow quite slowly Dinos bloom in new tanks. am I creating a constant new tank environment by being too nutrient poor? I cant imagine this being the case as I do see deterioration when I am neglectful for a few weeks at a time, but on the other hand in the summer when I am away a lot and just do minimal maintenance I don't see anything horrible going wrong or the dinos getting any worse! (if anything probably a bit better.)

future plans: if the ozone and removal of the cannister filter don't help I will try a 2-3 day light depravation trial over the Christmas break.

the problem started only after introducing the MH lights a few years ago and they have been a constant problem since. These are likely helping the dinos grow but the vast majority of great tanks out there use MH and don't have a dino problem. Maybe I should ditch the MH and just go with fluorescent.?!

Help. I am considering quitting but I am so far into this I don't want such a low form of life to defeat me! Any comments/suggestions would be helpful.

[carloa]

I struggled with Dino for 4-5 months. I tried it all. The only thing that worked in the end was taking out each of the rocks it was on a scrubbing and scrubbing in a bucket full of saltwater. It never came back. That was about a year ago.

Carlo

[Mackie]

did that last year. It was all back within a month!

[scottywags]

Just gonna tag along. Sounds like I've got about the same thing. Mine looks like a grey dusting over the substa. is that about right?

[Mackie]

the classic description is brown snot with bubbles....

check out the picture at: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...llates+picture

(anyone know how to add an easier link to a previous article?)

[Triggerfish]

silicates will be one of the 1st nutrients to begin and make its way through the DI resin. depending on the source levels that could be as soon as 30 days...test both in and out.

you could try to increase flow and alk to see if that helps out a bit.

[Mackie]

That is interesting, I thought the DI resin would last as long as its colour is maintained. I think the manufacturer said up to 2 years. I will test in, out and tank water when I get my test kit

How often do folks out ther change their DI cartridges? at $40 per i wouldnt want to change it monthly!

my flow is quite strong now, my corals are already stuglling with the current. Alk is a bit low, i am buffering up and getting back into kalk (which i will do quite a bit of if I decide to "go dark" for a day or two!

keep the comments comming!

cheers

[Black71gp]

i had really bad stuff about a year ago. lost almost everything. i tore down when i moved.. cooked my rock and no more sand for me and all seems to be fine now but i know what you mean it makes you wanna quit... its awuful probally one of the worst things you can have

[Triggerfish]

the DI will not remove all nutrients for 2 years.. again depending on the source levels it could not last long at all.
you could buy DI resin in bulk..it comes to about $6-7 per 10-16oz refill.

[Sindjin]

Not to sound like a broken record but you have stopped to think that your tank may not be Nutrient Poor? That your problem could be leaching from the sandbeds?

I have been asking a DSB'er to try this experiment and so far noone has. Test your tank for Phosphates (PO4). Record your results. Now extract water from the top layer of your sand bed disturbing the sand a little. Test that sample. Post the 2 results... we should see a dramtatic difference.

[Mackie]

I forgot to mention that i converted to a bare bottom tank last year but the problem not only continued but multiplied! the scum on the starboard was really disgusting so I switched back to a sand bed.

I have gone dark, no light now for 24 hours, will try a 48 hour period with no light. Should I go longer or shorter? Other posts have described corals doing well with light deprivation but what about clams?

Ive tried every salt mix on the market and noticed no change .

i am suspecting silicate may be the issue. I cant wait untill the test kit gets here. (no lfs nearby) if it is the issue I will add another DI canister with a high silicate removal resin.

I will do the phospate off the sand bed test and let you know!

[Triggerfish]

i thought PO4 was more indicative of issues with green algae???

[Mackie]

I would assume any chemical used in the biological process would accelerate the growth of any undesireable. If for some reason the dinos are abundant they will use the phosphat. No one nutrient can sustain an organisim but phospate alone should not give rise to a dino problem.

My guess

[Mackie]

Ok as suspected my Silicate levels were off the chart! I measured silicate in my tank water and in my RO/DI water and both are the same...~ 3 ppm the test kits suggests RO/DI water should not be used if it is over 2 ppm. It also suggests the tank water should not have any detectable silicates! SO if you have dinos stop your water changes until you can confirm that your new water is silicate free!!!!

I have ordered a 2nd silicate removal resin and will replace my mixed bed resin. after this i will post an update re the results.

My photo-starvation period is over and the dinos are 1/2 gone but I can't imagine this will last long as long as the silicates are high.

I am under the understanding that dinos and diatoms are similar in that they use silicate to construct their exoskeleton (silicon-dioxide) so it is essentially a fertilizer for these organisms. Please correct me if this is not correct!

if you have dinos or diatoms test your tank and make up water for silicates! please post if you have dinos and high or low silicates. It would be really interesting if we could document high silicates for all who suffer the heartbreak of dinos!!!

Please continue this thread, if silicates are the culprit I suspect many are fighting a loosing battle like I am and are not even considering silicates as a possible issue!

[Mackie]

Sindjin : Bye the way i did the phosphate test with tank water.... undetectable

I sucked sand/water from my sand bed, really stirred things up, I then tested that for phosphate and .............................. undetctable! My sand bed is just a year old and as I have been having this problem this entire time I am really skimpy on the feeding so my bed is probably not processing a lot of nutrients. It would be interesting to get a bunch of DSB -er's who have been doing it for a long time to do the same and see if there are a lot of sequestered phosphates in there. ...... come on deep sand bed people try this!!!!!

[jmack]

just out of curiosity what is your alk? I am wondering if low alk levels could cause it.

[Mackie]

just tested it... it is low at 80 mg/L. over the pat few years though it has been ok and high or low dosent seem to change the situation.

I am buffering up now though!

[Johnsteph10]

You can't stir up the sandbed to test it...you just dilute it out when you do that. You have to very gently draw water up from the sandbed.

[reefmutts]

I have been battling the same problem for the last year. I have the same exact setup, 75 gal tank. I have done everything that every link has said beside cooking my rock, which I refuse to do. Since all my SPS and LPS are attached to my LR. All my corals are doing fine! but this brown tiny oxygen bubble algae is driving me crazy. I do water changes every 2 weeks, Phosphan reactor with Rowaphas going 27/7, drip kalk from a reactor, Alk at 9.6dkh. calcium at 410 all the time. Phosphate 0, nitrate 0, I use carbon 24/7 change it every 3 days. Change MH 10000k and PC every 9 months. Change my RO/DI cartrige everytime my TDS meter reads 1.. always shooting for 0... I have a refugium with cheato, I have urchins, some snails, tang, blenny, still the same. It never goes away. I will test for silicates and post again. I am ready to quit as well, but I love the hobby to much.

I also have a bare bottom....

[Mackie]

reefmutts:

Your silicate levels will be real intersting to me! I just ordered a TDS meter. I assumed if your reading was 1 or less your silicates would also be acceptable! please post when you have tested. I would really like to see what your RO/DI silicate levels are with a real low TDS reading!

How often are you changing your DI cartridge, how often your RO membrane? What DI resin are you using? mixed resin or a specific silicate removal resin?

please repost with your results!!!!

Cheers

[Mackie]

Johnsteph10:

I actually sucked sand/water/cr#$p out of my sand bed and then let it settle then tested and still nothing!

????

[Shark]

I battled dino all summer. Finally had to move corals to another tank. Ran the tank with fish and rock in the dark for about a month. The whole time running my refugium lit 24/7. After a month slowly brought back photo period, and live rock. Once new clean up crew survived for two weeks brought back corals. So far So good.

[reefmutts]

Well Mackie,

I came home and tested my tank water and my Ro/DI water for Silicates... Used Salifert test kit and tested each (tank water and RO water twice) to make sure results are good, both came up 0.
I was hoping it was the problem, so I could actually find the culprit

I change my RO membrane once a year only . They say you can get two years.

I do not use the silicate resin.

I just seem to keep up with the stupid bubble brown algea. I'm curious to see a picture of your tank compared to mine. I'll try to get a picture in the next couple of days.

[coraladdict]

I've been through dinos in the past .

The following is my personal approach which you may or may not agree with but it worked for me.

The po4 test is not very useful here,most of the time nothing shows up because the dinos are very effective in gulpng up the po4, they been arround since the beginning of time...so they are very very effective in doing just that.

1) In the interest of time ,start by getting the fish on a diet by reducing the feeding regime progressively on a 10 day period until you get to about 20% or less of what you use to feed them.

During this time cut on the lighting period also progressively bringing it to zero hrs per day after the 10 days above.

Your clams and corals should do find,just remember that in their world the sun can be weeks without sunshine.

During this period, use a micron filter ( I used a Magnum with a right size filter sleeve) clean it every day .You will see a lot of dinos pluging up the filter especially the first week.
The reason for this is when dinos crash at night they reintroduce po4 back so the next morning the cycle starts again,so by useing a micron filter and cleaning it daily you'll start seeing result after a few days.Keep the filter on for at least 6 weeks or more , rinsing the micron filter daily and changing it when not effective anymore.

2) Once you've reached the stage of reduced feeding and lighting,start doing the biggest water change possible without stressing the fish and corals , I did 50% water change back to back for three days then 25% for another 3 days.
Just remember that your starving the dinos from po4 during this time.


3) After you've done the water changes keep the schedule going with reduce feeding and lighting for a weeks time then restart to increase feeding and lighting very slowly again (three weeks) while keeping the micron filter on and rinsing it every day.

This process though drastic has got rid of my dinos which I had been fighting for 6 months before I used this approach.

I know what your going through , don't quit...it's hard work but worth all the effort.

Good luck!

[Boatwizard]

Fought them for a year. Used resins, more circulation, down to 6 hours of light a day, hardly fed. Was about to punt. Then I tried a UV. They stopped growing within 2 weeks, started dying off in 3 weeks. After 10 weeks I'm dino free! NEVER will I do a reef tankwithout a UV. NEVER!!!