RowaPhos lowers Ph

dufferdan · 01/15/2006, 07:08 PM

I hooked up my new Phosban reactor with Rowaphos (250ml) and since then my Ph has dropped down to 7.95. I cant' seem to get it higher. I have added as much buffer as I dare (Ph 8.2 buffer).
My Alk is at 8.6dkh, Ca 410, Mag 1350, Spg 1.206. The only thing off is Ph.
Has anyone else experienced this effect using Rowaphos?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/16/2006, 07:31 AM

Yes, GFO can have some effects on pH and alkalinity. The effect is usually short term.
Limewater would be the best way to boost the pH, followed by aeration with fresh air.

This article may help:

Iron Oxide Hydroxide (GFO) Phosphate Binders
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.htm

and

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

Billybeau1 · 01/16/2006, 10:15 AM

Yes, that happened to me too. But in my case it also dropped alk about 4 dkh. My Ph went from 8.2 to 7.8. Turns out I used too much at one time. Read and re-read those directions. This is very potent stuff. I think 250ml is too much at one time for a 20 gal.

dufferdan · 01/16/2006, 02:14 PM

The reactor instruction state that the minimum amount of media to use is 250ml.
Should I only run the reactor part time?
or will it work with less media?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/17/2006, 06:32 AM

There should be no recommended minimum, IMO, unless the reactor itself cannot operate with a small amount. I'd always start with a low amount and ramp up as needed. If the reactor can't handle that, then perhaps running part of the time, but the concern is the stagnation of wtaer in it when not operating.

Has the phosphate dropped? The pH effect may be largely over and done with.

dufferdan · 01/17/2006, 12:59 PM

Thanks Randy,
The instructions give a minimum, so thats what I did. Next time I will try and run it with less to see how the reactor runs with less media.
For now, I turned off the reactor and put it on a timer to run only when my lights come on. I also hooked up a kalk drip combined with my auto top off water. So each time it switches on the tank gets a shot of fresh water and a little squirt of kalk. The Kalk bottle is hooked up to a aqualifter pump.
The stagnation of the water in the reactor would only be for 16hrs. What is your concern about this exactly? The reactor sits idle about 1/2 to 1/3 full of water and media. What will happen to the stagnate water?
Do you think then that the Ph effect is temporary, or will the Rowaphos continue to lower Ph as long as it is used?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/17/2006, 01:09 PM

The reactor or the media gave a minimum?

The stagnation of the water in the reactor would only be for 16hrs. What is your concern about this exactly?

Potential production of hydrogen sulfide as bacteria in the system consume organics in the water, reduce the O2 and nitrate, and then begin to reduce sulfate. I'm not sure how long that typically takes, but may take less and less time if you do it every day and anaerobic bacteria start to build up.

My expectation is that the pH effect is temporary, as long as you maintain alkalinity.

dufferdan · 01/17/2006, 01:50 PM

The reactor (two little fishes Phosban reactor) instructions said to use 250ml minimum.

So to be clear, you think I should not run the reactor part time?
Wouldn't my protein skimmer replenish the O2 fast enough when the reactor turns on and the stagnate water flows back into the system?
And reducing nitrates would be a good thing wouldn't it?

If the effect is temporary, maybe tonight I let it run all day and check the effect on Ph and see if it is stable now. I have had to add a lot of Alk since starting it, trying to keep Ph up. But I was beginning to worry that it might start a Ca snow storm if I kept adding it.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/17/2006, 01:55 PM

The concern is not low O2, but the hydrogen sulfide, which is very toxic.

I don't know what happens in the reactor with less media. I prefer to use a cannister filter that doesn't mix the media around, potentially breaking it apart.

dufferdan · 01/17/2006, 02:52 PM

Thanks Randy,

I'll reply with the results. I hope you are right about the Ph stabalizing. Then I won't need to worry about anything except reducing phosphate too low.

Cheers

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/17/2006, 04:15 PM

You're welcome.

Good luck.

sjm817 · 01/17/2006, 08:43 PM

FWIW, I run 85ml of ROWA in my TLF.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/18/2006, 07:55 AM

Thanks.,

And that seems to work OK, I presume?

dufferdan · 01/18/2006, 04:59 PM

Update,
the last day my Ph has stayed a little low 7.8 - 8.0. This morning Ph was 7.8 with lights still out (only fuge light on). My Alk is really high from adding it to bump up my Ph 15dKh, about twice as high as it should be.
I not going to mess with anything for the next couple days. Some corals are looking stressed I think from all the fluxuations in Ph and Alk.
Water change is sch for Sat.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 01/19/2006, 06:04 AM

The high alkalinity may be stressing some, yes.

Lutefisk · 01/19/2006, 08:13 AM

One of the online Two Little Fishes reactor instructions and descriptions I found does refer to a minimum of 150ml of media for the Phosban Reactor 150. I don't know if your reference to 250 is a typo, bad information that I found, or you have a larger reactor (which I haven't seen).

The big problem is that the Phosban instructions are to use 150ml for 150 gallons. (There are a variety of recommendations between manufacturers)

As others have pointed out, 250ml is way too much for the 20gal tank mentioned in your signature.

My 2-cents is that it looks like your reactor is not appropriate for your tank size.

But, don't run out and get rid of it just yet. You could consider getting a mesh bag for the Phosban and another for some charcoal and putting both in your reactor. This does run the risk of a known possibility - the media forming a firm block.

Another option might be to use 20ml of media and turn the flow way down.

Paul

sjm817 · 01/19/2006, 08:54 AM

Dont see the reason for the 150 minimum. I run 85 ml of Rowa, and it works fine. I actually run (2) TLF 150 in series. 1st one is carbon, 2nd, Rowa.

MJ400->flow valve->TLF1 carbon->TLF2 Rowa->output

I have it so the Rowa just dances a bit on the surface. Particles dont go anywhere near the top of the reactor (not visible anyways) I also rubber banded the media bag that comes with the Rowa to the end of the output hose.

Lutefisk · 01/19/2006, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sjm817
Dont see the reason for the 150 minimum. I run 85 ml of Rowa, and it works fine. I actually run (2) TLF 150 in series. 1st one is carbon, 2nd, Rowa.

...

I agree with you. The key is the flow rate.

01/15/2006, 07:08 PM	#1
dufferdan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 209	RowaPhos lowers Ph I hooked up my new Phosban reactor with Rowaphos (250ml) and since then my Ph has dropped down to 7.95. I cant' seem to get it higher. I have added as much buffer as I dare (Ph 8.2 buffer). My Alk is at 8.6dkh, Ca 410, Mag 1350, Spg 1.206. The only thing off is Ph. Has anyone else experienced this effect using Rowaphos?

01/16/2006, 07:31 AM	#2
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Yes, GFO can have some effects on pH and alkalinity. The effect is usually short term. Limewater would be the best way to boost the pH, followed by aeration with fresh air. This article may help: Iron Oxide Hydroxide (GFO) Phosphate Binders http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.htm and Low pH: Causes and Cures http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/17/2006, 06:32 AM	#5
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	There should be no recommended minimum, IMO, unless the reactor itself cannot operate with a small amount. I'd always start with a low amount and ramp up as needed. If the reactor can't handle that, then perhaps running part of the time, but the concern is the stagnation of wtaer in it when not operating. Has the phosphate dropped? The pH effect may be largely over and done with. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/17/2006, 01:09 PM	#7
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	The reactor or the media gave a minimum? The stagnation of the water in the reactor would only be for 16hrs. What is your concern about this exactly? Potential production of hydrogen sulfide as bacteria in the system consume organics in the water, reduce the O2 and nitrate, and then begin to reduce sulfate. I'm not sure how long that typically takes, but may take less and less time if you do it every day and anaerobic bacteria start to build up. My expectation is that the pH effect is temporary, as long as you maintain alkalinity. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/17/2006, 01:55 PM	#9
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	The concern is not low O2, but the hydrogen sulfide, which is very toxic. I don't know what happens in the reactor with less media. I prefer to use a cannister filter that doesn't mix the media around, potentially breaking it apart. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/16/2006, 10:15 AM	#3
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	Yes, that happened to me too. But in my case it also dropped alk about 4 dkh. My Ph went from 8.2 to 7.8. Turns out I used too much at one time. Read and re-read those directions. This is very potent stuff. I think 250ml is too much at one time for a 20 gal.

01/16/2006, 02:14 PM	#4
dufferdan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 209	The reactor instruction state that the minimum amount of media to use is 250ml. Should I only run the reactor part time? or will it work with less media?

01/17/2006, 12:59 PM	#6
dufferdan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 209	Thanks Randy, The instructions give a minimum, so thats what I did. Next time I will try and run it with less to see how the reactor runs with less media. For now, I turned off the reactor and put it on a timer to run only when my lights come on. I also hooked up a kalk drip combined with my auto top off water. So each time it switches on the tank gets a shot of fresh water and a little squirt of kalk. The Kalk bottle is hooked up to a aqualifter pump. The stagnation of the water in the reactor would only be for 16hrs. What is your concern about this exactly? The reactor sits idle about 1/2 to 1/3 full of water and media. What will happen to the stagnate water? Do you think then that the Ph effect is temporary, or will the Rowaphos continue to lower Ph as long as it is used?

01/17/2006, 01:50 PM	#8
dufferdan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 209	The reactor (two little fishes Phosban reactor) instructions said to use 250ml minimum. So to be clear, you think I should not run the reactor part time? Wouldn't my protein skimmer replenish the O2 fast enough when the reactor turns on and the stagnate water flows back into the system? And reducing nitrates would be a good thing wouldn't it? If the effect is temporary, maybe tonight I let it run all day and check the effect on Ph and see if it is stable now. I have had to add a lot of Alk since starting it, trying to keep Ph up. But I was beginning to worry that it might start a Ca snow storm if I kept adding it.

01/17/2006, 02:52 PM	#10
dufferdan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 209	Thanks Randy, I'll reply with the results. I hope you are right about the Ph stabalizing. Then I won't need to worry about anything except reducing phosphate too low. Cheers

01/17/2006, 04:15 PM	#11
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	You're welcome. Good luck. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/17/2006, 08:43 PM	#12
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	FWIW, I run 85ml of ROWA in my TLF. __________________ - Scott

01/18/2006, 07:55 AM	#13
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Thanks., And that seems to work OK, I presume? __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/18/2006, 04:59 PM	#14
dufferdan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 209	Update, the last day my Ph has stayed a little low 7.8 - 8.0. This morning Ph was 7.8 with lights still out (only fuge light on). My Alk is really high from adding it to bump up my Ph 15dKh, about twice as high as it should be. I not going to mess with anything for the next couple days. Some corals are looking stressed I think from all the fluxuations in Ph and Alk. Water change is sch for Sat.

01/19/2006, 06:04 AM	#15
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	The high alkalinity may be stressing some, yes. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/19/2006, 08:13 AM	#16
Lutefisk Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Oviedo, FL Posts: 1,686	One of the online Two Little Fishes reactor instructions and descriptions I found does refer to a minimum of 150ml of media for the Phosban Reactor 150. I don't know if your reference to 250 is a typo, bad information that I found, or you have a larger reactor (which I haven't seen). The big problem is that the Phosban instructions are to use 150ml for 150 gallons. (There are a variety of recommendations between manufacturers) As others have pointed out, 250ml is way too much for the 20gal tank mentioned in your signature. My 2-cents is that it looks like your reactor is not appropriate for your tank size. But, don't run out and get rid of it just yet. You could consider getting a mesh bag for the Phosban and another for some charcoal and putting both in your reactor. This does run the risk of a known possibility - the media forming a firm block. Another option might be to use 20ml of media and turn the flow way down. Paul

01/19/2006, 08:54 AM	#17
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	Dont see the reason for the 150 minimum. I run 85 ml of Rowa, and it works fine. I actually run (2) TLF 150 in series. 1st one is carbon, 2nd, Rowa. MJ400->flow valve->TLF1 carbon->TLF2 Rowa->output I have it so the Rowa just dances a bit on the surface. Particles dont go anywhere near the top of the reactor (not visible anyways) I also rubber banded the media bag that comes with the Rowa to the end of the output hose. __________________ - Scott