new to marine and ruining little lives...

pufferbob · 01/27/2006, 02:09 AM

I am in dire need of major help here guys... This could be long and drawn out, please bare with me...

29g, 2 aquaclear 50 hob filters (200 gph each), 1 air stone, 1 150 watt heater, FOWLS

29 g that was a cycled high brackish (.015) housing 2 very small figure 8 puffers, 2 very small green spot puffers. The tank had a black sand bed which 1 month ago I added live aggrogite. This made the bed 2 1/2- 3 inches deep... I began slowly (over a couple of weeks) increasing salinity (.002 per 3 days). I found a small valentini puffer (for only $8!) and added him to the mix...
I lost a figure 8, got weak, pulled to intake, (in middle of the night) and had ripped open, was there for up to 8 hours. When I woke and found it I pulled it and did a 50% wc. Later that day I lost the other figure 8. (This is now a week and a half ago) I then set up an emergency hospital with a 10g I had just gotten home. I set it to the same salinity and temp (.021, 82) and bagged up my 3 remaining fish. I floated these guys for 1 hour and set them free... This tank I placed 1 of my aquaclear 50's on which had been cycled on 29 g prior to this eppisode (lightly rinsed off left over food but not enough to destroy the good stuff).
I had test done on 29g: amonia= 3.0, nitrite= 3.3, nitrate= 135, ph= 8.1
I then did a 75% wc and had retested: amonia= 2.8, nitrite= 3.0, nitrate= 133, ph= 8.1
Another round at 75%: am= 2.0, nit= 3.0, nit= 130, ph= 8.0

I this time stir all the bed, turning it over looking closely for anything left behind... Nothing. Break down the last filter, rinse it thuroghly... 95% wc: am=2.0, nit= 3.3, nit= 130, ph=7.9
Test water being used for wc: am= 0.0, nit= 0.0, nit= 0, ph= 8.1
All this and maintaning sg of .021

During testing of main tank I loose 1 gsp. Notice that other has cloudy poped eye which i assumed to be popeye. Valentini still looking beautiful (owned for 3 day at this point) although realise i have yet to see it eat, thinking it is nocturnal and is still shy and now probobly stressed, I go on. I purchase myracine 2 and begin treating hospital.
Being that this tank was not properly cycled (did not have choice) and my other tank is going nuts on me, I am wc every other day at 50%, and vacuming food every feeding.

The gsp was looking better for a few days till 2 days ago, (except for having stopped eatting himself for this duration of just under a week), he began bumping into everything, bitting everything in his face (glass, fingers, airline... not fish or food) and getting stuck to intake. Sadly he died last night... I was unfortunate enough to watch but was able to pull him as soon as it happend.

Now, the few remaining problems... The valentini since today has been very dark, swiming around less, not even paying any mind to my being in the room (which he had begun a few days ago). Do I have any hope for him?

My 29 is now in process of a new fishless cycle, which will be a while befor anyone can live there again.
What happend in this tank??? Why would peremiters go off the wall so bad like that?? No food decaying, nothing dead in sand (unless it was the sand), which leads to... Was my bed a factor in this?

I am down to 1 last fish and don't wanna go out like this... If you have any ideas,please help.

AllenFord_SC · 01/27/2006, 03:20 AM

Sorry to hear about your losses. Here is what I would do to remedy the situation.
1) Empty the 29 COMPLETELY! Throw out all of the sand and clean the tank thorougly. Don't use any detergents.
2) Get a different kind of Filtration. Those types of filters are nitrate factories and a nightmare for saltwater tanks. Perhaps an over flow box with a sump that contains your skimmer and a couple of pounds of LR rubble. Wal-mart sells 10 gallon tanks for $9.99 and you can get a cheap skimmer and over flow box from eBay.
3) Take the airstone out of the tank and buy a skimmer. Not that airstone are bad (except for the salt creep they cause) but they are inefficient.
4) Purchase about 30lbs of LR and some new sand and start your cyle on the new tank.
5) Lower your Bio- load or at least slow the pace of new additions. To many fish in a tank or adding them to quickly will defeat the pupose of your filters since they can't keep up with the waste.
6) Be Patient! Make sure the tank is fully cycled and the levels are steady in your tank before adding new fish.
I know this is alot and it won't be cheap but it is about the health of the fish and you will end up losing more money in fish in the long run.

Hope this helps.

pufferbob · 01/27/2006, 04:14 AM

Good advise and excepted...
But, I have no room for any type of sump/refugium... This setup sits upon a chest of drawers beside my bed.
I did discard all water and most of the bed. The bed now sits about 1/2 inch high above the bottom.
The bioload has significantly decreased considering the occurances of the last 2 weeks. It would be a while regaurdless now befor any inhabitants could be purchased.
I am on an extremely tight budget.
I have been trying to get a skimmer within my budget on ebay, but considering how ebay works, it will be the end of time befor I will win one within my range. I did attempt to makeshift one for the time being using a solo cup, an intake from one of my filters, areator, and a small stone... It is small, running on my 10g hospital, made it last night and I have already seen a big difference in w.q. since.
Is there any way my now exsisting bed would recover at its new depth?
As far as lr. I have been cautioned much about using it with puffers, being told a puffer will destroy and kill it.
Nitrates, to keep control of that until I could expand my setup with a well functioning skimmer, I was on a once weekly wc routine. Along with filter maintenance on same schedule.
I am still curious if the bed was the main factor... 1/2 inch vs. dsb vs. bare bottom... Having now learned about the dead zone in a bed at the prior depth...

Teremei · 01/27/2006, 04:55 AM

A skimmer is very important for saltwater, even more for begginers. Some advanced aquarists run without skimmers but I beleive everyone should. For a 29 gallon you could easily use something like an aquaC remora for $150 and I'm sure there's something even cheaper.

If you want to get into saltwater, you have to expect to spend some money. If you cannot afford a simple skimmer, maybe you should rethink it. Sorry if this seams harsh, it is just my opinion. Perhaps someone else can give you better advice for the "low budget" minded hobbiest. But that's an oxymoron in saltwater. I just skimmed through but your main problem is wanting more fish than you can keep. 5 puffers in a 29?

dad300 · 01/27/2006, 06:01 AM

not the best skimmer in the world.... but you could try and get a seaclone or a prism. Cheaper than the better ones. but It would at least get you a skimmer. and on a 29 gal they should work ok.
Then you would have a skimmer for a quarantine tank down the road.
Fish load..... Wow that was high and was the cause of your problems I have no doubt.
if you are going to have puffers i'd find the forum that kelly jedecki (puffer queen)is hosting and talk to her about the stocking that she would do in a 29. you might need to use google or the such to find it.

MBuck · 01/27/2006, 08:51 AM

I had a 20g L on my kitchen counter for over 4 months.

I just slid it to the edge, and used a prism hang on skimmer. I think I paid about $50.00 for it on Ebay...check into the buy it nows, then no need to win a bid.

I also ran a small carbon filter on it, that I then placed on my qt.... I did a 10% wc every week, and kept a lawnmower blenny, a blue green chromis, some snails, hermits and a peppermint shrimp.... added over a 4 week period.

I now have a 58g cube, and have moved everyone into it.

You have to be diligent in your water changes, and testing in a setup that small....I was testing every 3-4 days. The skimmer took about a week to get "dialed" in properly, but it did finally start pulling some nasty stuff out of the water, and the fish seemd much happier, water was clearer, etc...

Make sure your salt water is pre-made, at least 2-3 days ahead of a change, and don't forget to top off with plain water for evaporation. In a setup that small, you could purcahse water at your local grocery, or from walmart....otherwise invest in a RO/DI system. I just bought mine this week.

It can be done, but you really have to keep up on things, and slow down, I know it is very hard not to add fish in a hurry, you want to see them, and enjoy them, but even a very "small" fish can add alot to a small system.

I have been reading up on puffers for my aggressive tank, and they can be kept with live rock, they will however eat snails, crabs, small fish and the like. They may taste your LR but shouldn't do enough harm to kill it, they need the "hard" stuff to wear their teeth down. Once you get your system cycled, I would not add more then one fish every 2-3 weeks. That way if something goes wrong, you may have time to correct it, before it gets out of hand...

Good Luck!! Happy Reefing!

pufferbob · 01/27/2006, 03:02 PM

Ok, some advise adhered to... I broke down, I did it. I did a buy it now on ebay and it hurt the wallet well. Now, does anyone know about Visi-Jet Ps100 Aquarium Protein Skimmer. I hope it works well, cause I am on the way out the door to pay for it. Total= just under $50, that hurt real well!

piranhaking · 01/27/2006, 10:00 PM

i have a scarlet reef hermit in with my figure 8 puffer and he took a claw off at first, but has been in with it for months now with out any problems. but that might just be an exception to the rule so dont count on it to work for sure.

pufferbob · 01/28/2006, 02:30 AM

Fresh ideas.... I am starting over... Please read http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=762378 and let me know your thoughts.

markandkristen · 01/28/2006, 06:34 AM

good luck on the 29. i never could keep much more than damsels in mine. my 90 has been stable over a year now with more fish than i care to name. i opted for a nice skimmer and glad i did.

01/27/2006, 02:09 AM	#1
pufferbob Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: fort worth texas Posts: 42	new to marine and ruining little lives... I am in dire need of major help here guys... This could be long and drawn out, please bare with me... 29g, 2 aquaclear 50 hob filters (200 gph each), 1 air stone, 1 150 watt heater, FOWLS 29 g that was a cycled high brackish (.015) housing 2 very small figure 8 puffers, 2 very small green spot puffers. The tank had a black sand bed which 1 month ago I added live aggrogite. This made the bed 2 1/2- 3 inches deep... I began slowly (over a couple of weeks) increasing salinity (.002 per 3 days). I found a small valentini puffer (for only $8!) and added him to the mix... I lost a figure 8, got weak, pulled to intake, (in middle of the night) and had ripped open, was there for up to 8 hours. When I woke and found it I pulled it and did a 50% wc. Later that day I lost the other figure 8. (This is now a week and a half ago) I then set up an emergency hospital with a 10g I had just gotten home. I set it to the same salinity and temp (.021, 82) and bagged up my 3 remaining fish. I floated these guys for 1 hour and set them free... This tank I placed 1 of my aquaclear 50's on which had been cycled on 29 g prior to this eppisode (lightly rinsed off left over food but not enough to destroy the good stuff). I had test done on 29g: amonia= 3.0, nitrite= 3.3, nitrate= 135, ph= 8.1 I then did a 75% wc and had retested: amonia= 2.8, nitrite= 3.0, nitrate= 133, ph= 8.1 Another round at 75%: am= 2.0, nit= 3.0, nit= 130, ph= 8.0 I this time stir all the bed, turning it over looking closely for anything left behind... Nothing. Break down the last filter, rinse it thuroghly... 95% wc: am=2.0, nit= 3.3, nit= 130, ph=7.9 Test water being used for wc: am= 0.0, nit= 0.0, nit= 0, ph= 8.1 All this and maintaning sg of .021 During testing of main tank I loose 1 gsp. Notice that other has cloudy poped eye which i assumed to be popeye. Valentini still looking beautiful (owned for 3 day at this point) although realise i have yet to see it eat, thinking it is nocturnal and is still shy and now probobly stressed, I go on. I purchase myracine 2 and begin treating hospital. Being that this tank was not properly cycled (did not have choice) and my other tank is going nuts on me, I am wc every other day at 50%, and vacuming food every feeding. The gsp was looking better for a few days till 2 days ago, (except for having stopped eatting himself for this duration of just under a week), he began bumping into everything, bitting everything in his face (glass, fingers, airline... not fish or food) and getting stuck to intake. Sadly he died last night... I was unfortunate enough to watch but was able to pull him as soon as it happend. Now, the few remaining problems... The valentini since today has been very dark, swiming around less, not even paying any mind to my being in the room (which he had begun a few days ago). Do I have any hope for him? My 29 is now in process of a new fishless cycle, which will be a while befor anyone can live there again. What happend in this tank??? Why would peremiters go off the wall so bad like that?? No food decaying, nothing dead in sand (unless it was the sand), which leads to... Was my bed a factor in this? I am down to 1 last fish and don't wanna go out like this... If you have any ideas,please help.

01/27/2006, 03:20 AM	#2
AllenFord_SC Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ridgeland, SC Posts: 703	Sorry to hear about your losses. Here is what I would do to remedy the situation. 1) Empty the 29 COMPLETELY! Throw out all of the sand and clean the tank thorougly. Don't use any detergents. 2) Get a different kind of Filtration. Those types of filters are nitrate factories and a nightmare for saltwater tanks. Perhaps an over flow box with a sump that contains your skimmer and a couple of pounds of LR rubble. Wal-mart sells 10 gallon tanks for $9.99 and you can get a cheap skimmer and over flow box from eBay. 3) Take the airstone out of the tank and buy a skimmer. Not that airstone are bad (except for the salt creep they cause) but they are inefficient. 4) Purchase about 30lbs of LR and some new sand and start your cyle on the new tank. 5) Lower your Bio- load or at least slow the pace of new additions. To many fish in a tank or adding them to quickly will defeat the pupose of your filters since they can't keep up with the waste. 6) Be Patient! Make sure the tank is fully cycled and the levels are steady in your tank before adding new fish. I know this is alot and it won't be cheap but it is about the health of the fish and you will end up losing more money in fish in the long run. Hope this helps. __________________ We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl..... Roger Waters, Pink Floyd Current Tank Info: 150 Gallon Mixed, 55 Gallon sump, 35 gallon fuge

01/27/2006, 06:01 AM	#5
dad300 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Hampden, Me Posts: 1,085	not the best skimmer in the world.... but you could try and get a seaclone or a prism. Cheaper than the better ones. but It would at least get you a skimmer. and on a 29 gal they should work ok. Then you would have a skimmer for a quarantine tank down the road. Fish load..... Wow that was high and was the cause of your problems I have no doubt. if you are going to have puffers i'd find the forum that kelly jedecki (puffer queen)is hosting and talk to her about the stocking that she would do in a 29. you might need to use google or the such to find it. __________________ wife to me.... "Skimmers cost how much!!!??" Never underestimate the lower boundary of human intelligence. Current Tank Info: 75 gal (216watts t5ho on the way) Various shrroms, xenia, Leather, ;leptoseris, brown polyps

01/27/2006, 08:51 AM	#6
MBuck Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Shelby, Ohio Posts: 452	I had a 20g L on my kitchen counter for over 4 months. I just slid it to the edge, and used a prism hang on skimmer. I think I paid about $50.00 for it on Ebay...check into the buy it nows, then no need to win a bid. I also ran a small carbon filter on it, that I then placed on my qt.... I did a 10% wc every week, and kept a lawnmower blenny, a blue green chromis, some snails, hermits and a peppermint shrimp.... added over a 4 week period. I now have a 58g cube, and have moved everyone into it. You have to be diligent in your water changes, and testing in a setup that small....I was testing every 3-4 days. The skimmer took about a week to get "dialed" in properly, but it did finally start pulling some nasty stuff out of the water, and the fish seemd much happier, water was clearer, etc... Make sure your salt water is pre-made, at least 2-3 days ahead of a change, and don't forget to top off with plain water for evaporation. In a setup that small, you could purcahse water at your local grocery, or from walmart....otherwise invest in a RO/DI system. I just bought mine this week. It can be done, but you really have to keep up on things, and slow down, I know it is very hard not to add fish in a hurry, you want to see them, and enjoy them, but even a very "small" fish can add alot to a small system. I have been reading up on puffers for my aggressive tank, and they can be kept with live rock, they will however eat snails, crabs, small fish and the like. They may taste your LR but shouldn't do enough harm to kill it, they need the "hard" stuff to wear their teeth down. Once you get your system cycled, I would not add more then one fish every 2-3 weeks. That way if something goes wrong, you may have time to correct it, before it gets out of hand... Good Luck!! Happy Reefing! __________________ Marie Do not dwell on the past, improve the future!! ~ M. Current Tank Info: 180g Reef, mated pair B/W percs, 3- pajama cardinals, long-spined urchin, yellow tang, six-line wrasse, hermits, snails, 2 Chromis, LP Angel, Foxface, 2- Royal Grammas, LMB, Sailfin Tang, pink damsel.

01/27/2006, 04:14 AM	#3
pufferbob Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: fort worth texas Posts: 42	Good advise and excepted... But, I have no room for any type of sump/refugium... This setup sits upon a chest of drawers beside my bed. I did discard all water and most of the bed. The bed now sits about 1/2 inch high above the bottom. The bioload has significantly decreased considering the occurances of the last 2 weeks. It would be a while regaurdless now befor any inhabitants could be purchased. I am on an extremely tight budget. I have been trying to get a skimmer within my budget on ebay, but considering how ebay works, it will be the end of time befor I will win one within my range. I did attempt to makeshift one for the time being using a solo cup, an intake from one of my filters, areator, and a small stone... It is small, running on my 10g hospital, made it last night and I have already seen a big difference in w.q. since. Is there any way my now exsisting bed would recover at its new depth? As far as lr. I have been cautioned much about using it with puffers, being told a puffer will destroy and kill it. Nitrates, to keep control of that until I could expand my setup with a well functioning skimmer, I was on a once weekly wc routine. Along with filter maintenance on same schedule. I am still curious if the bed was the main factor... 1/2 inch vs. dsb vs. bare bottom... Having now learned about the dead zone in a bed at the prior depth...

01/27/2006, 04:55 AM	#4
Teremei Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West Chicago (one hour west) Posts: 2,751	A skimmer is very important for saltwater, even more for begginers. Some advanced aquarists run without skimmers but I beleive everyone should. For a 29 gallon you could easily use something like an aquaC remora for $150 and I'm sure there's something even cheaper. If you want to get into saltwater, you have to expect to spend some money. If you cannot afford a simple skimmer, maybe you should rethink it. Sorry if this seams harsh, it is just my opinion. Perhaps someone else can give you better advice for the "low budget" minded hobbiest. But that's an oxymoron in saltwater. I just skimmed through but your main problem is wanting more fish than you can keep. 5 puffers in a 29?

01/27/2006, 03:02 PM	#7
pufferbob Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: fort worth texas Posts: 42	Ok, some advise adhered to... I broke down, I did it. I did a buy it now on ebay and it hurt the wallet well. Now, does anyone know about Visi-Jet Ps100 Aquarium Protein Skimmer. I hope it works well, cause I am on the way out the door to pay for it. Total= just under $50, that hurt real well!

01/27/2006, 10:00 PM	#8
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	i have a scarlet reef hermit in with my figure 8 puffer and he took a claw off at first, but has been in with it for months now with out any problems. but that might just be an exception to the rule so dont count on it to work for sure.

01/28/2006, 02:30 AM	#9
pufferbob Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: fort worth texas Posts: 42	Fresh ideas.... I am starting over... Please read http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=762378 and let me know your thoughts.

01/28/2006, 06:34 AM	#10
markandkristen Moved On Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Winterhaven, fl Posts: 4,081	good luck on the 29. i never could keep much more than damsels in mine. my 90 has been stable over a year now with more fish than i care to name. i opted for a nice skimmer and glad i did.