any experience with Ecosystems miracle mud filter???

[jasonkola]

I am a newbe my first tank was a failure so I am planning a new one. I want one that is as simple and natural as possible with the lowest amount of maintainance as possible. I heard about this ecosystems miracle mud filter and wanted to know if it works as good as they claim? dose it really eliminate the need to use a protien skimmer? I plan on setting up a 180g tank with lots of live rock and live sand and as many fish as I can keep with out over stalking. I have not desided if I will have a deep sand bed or a shallow one. also I think I will probably will want a sump with a refugeum. although one of those ecosystem miracal mud filters is basicly a refugeum so I might not need one in the sump. any how any one with experience with this filter and how well it works let me know. so I dont make a mistake if it is not so good. thanks jason

[Avi]

I have no personal experience with them at all...I have a more "traditional" reef...protein skimmer....but there's a fish store that I have stopped at for almost a year now, and they have a tank that's somewhere between 150 and 180-gallons...it's an odd shape so it's hard to be certain, that they have as a display tank and they use an Ecosystem Miracle Mud Filter on it. It's quite impressive. It's got the largest leather corals I've ever seen in there...a few varieties...and I've witnessed them get bigger and bigger, and all the other corals are showing really fine extention. I've watched the tank for just about as long as they've had it set up that way and have to say that it is a method for a successful reef. For sure.

[jasonkola]

thats interesting. do they have a skimmer on that tank? I read on here that one guy has one of these and only changes his water once a year. I am not sure if he ran a skimmer though. any one else have any experience with this filter? I wish the search button worked I would search for more info but I am not a paid member so it dosn't work for me.

[Avi]

The tank that I'm describing has no skimmer on it. It seems so risky, but the truth is, Ecosystems are meant to be run without skimmers. It isn't a gimmick, that I can say from having seen the tank prosper.

If you can’t search…check out this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ight=ecosystem

[Cutiewitbooty]

I had the small model on my 46 gal FOWLR and i loved it. My nitrates were always extremly low and i had no need for a skimmer. I would use one again in a heartbeat, but they are to expensive, espically for the big ones lol. When i get a bigger tank i do want to get one again, but i think i would use a skimmer anyways, or maybe just a couple days a week.

[bureau13]

There is actually a "Pro" version of the Ecosystems that comes with an ASM skimmer (or you can get it without the skimmer, but with the enlarged overflow section so one will fit). However, they do not recommend that you run it all the time.

I currently have one (not the pro) on my 55, but I run an AquaC Remora anyway.

jds

[jasonkola]

thanks for the link I might just need to fork it over and become a paid member so I can search better. this system shows promise I didn't realize the replacement mud was so expensive. $80 per 10 pound bag is a little steep. I wander what they put in there that works so good. if all it is is iron inriched I think one could do that themselves.

[old salty]

I'm using a similar setup, but built my own fuge from a 50 gallon tank in order to save a few bucks. I'm at three months now, and so far, so good. I can't get culerpa to grow, but there is no algae in the display either.

If you read up on this system, they recommend a very shallow sand bed. I blow off the LR weekly and do 10% water changes to export some of the junk in the tank. The only drawback I have witnessed is the vast amount of particulate matter suspended in the water. I don't want a crystal clear tank, but the amount that I have can be unsightly. I use a filter sock on one of the overflows which really catches a lot of junk. Those need to be replaced every 3-4 days.

[jasonkola]

bump, so any one have any more links to more info on this filter. I plan to research everything I plan for my new tank carefully so as too try to avoid as many mistakes as possible. I am thinking I will probably end up useing a skimmer also. but I would like to know the long term affects of running with out a skimmer. I think it would be interesting to design a more self sufficient system. one that dosn't require so much supliments. one that recycles much of the waste within. I know there is is plenty of critteres that can do the house keeping on the bottom of the tank. and then theres the nitrates which can be consumed by various plants. so what else is there to consider. I know I need to invest in a good ro/di unit to keep from adding unwanted extras to my tank. then there is a good supply of argonite I will use on the floor and possibly in the sump or a seperate deep sand bed. this should help maintain a constant ph and supply calcium. of course I am not going to be haveing a actual reef just alot of live rock which will be covered with the coralline algae and fish. well I am getting off subject. sorry. so any ideas you might have on such a system. or links to more info on that Ecosystems miracle mud filters long term use would be great thanks. jason

[Cutiewitbooty]

have you checked out their website? There is alot of good info there.

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/index.html

[stlpvosrt4]

I currently have an Ecosystem filter on my 55 gallon tank. I have no protein skimmer and have been using the system for over 3 years now. The system definitely works, but it doesn't get you out of all maintenance. I originally purchased the Ecosystem because like you I wanted something that was natural, and to that end, I think I have accomplished my goal. The only filtration in my tank is the Ecosystem filter and live rocks. I also run 440w VHO lights and the extention and growth of all my corals is phenomonal to say the least. I highly recommend this system. Currently, the only maintenance I do is daily Kalk addition and a 10 gallon water change once a month.

[jasonkola]

thanks Amber. there is quite a bit of good stuff on there. although alot of it might be a little bias. all I have heard is good stuff about it. I think I will be going that route when I finally set my tank up. although I am still undesided if I will run a skimmer or not. at least that is one decision out of the way. now on to lighting. but I will save that for another thread. thanks for the help and input. Jason

[murph1083]

what about chemical and mechanical filtration? Does that not matter?

[jasonkola]

in nature there is less mechanical and chemical and more natural filtration. although I dont think of mechanical filtration as bad and I probably will have a filter sock or something simple. I like the idea of leaving it to nature to replace the chemical filtration.

[murph1083]

how do you think a system like this would work on a FOWLR, I know its expensive, you consider it a waste unless you have reef?

[Cutiewitbooty]

the ecosystem i had had a black filter thing, that you had to rinse everyonce and a while. I think it was more for stoping the calupra from going into the return chamber, but it still caught all sorts of junk, as for chemical i think the mud might somehow do some of that, but i'm not ecactly sure how. The thing i really loved about the ecosystem is how i never really had to do any water changes on my FOWLR, it was awesome. The reason they don't want you to use a skimmer is because the skimmer will pull out all the stuff that the mud adds to the wwater, kinda defeating the purpose.

[bureau13]

Personally, I'm skeptical about some of the claims, and I will need to see more specifics about this "stuff" that is added to the water, which goes away with a skimmer. They may be right, but I'd need to see more specifics. I think its kind of ironic that they don't recommend a skimmer, but they sell a sump that has one if you want it.

jds

PS: This post sounds anti-Ecosystem, but its not...remember, I am currently running an Ecosystem setup, and I like it...but it certainly doesn't get me out of water changes, etc.

[old salty]

Your skepticism is certainly warranted; I personally don't like the name, "Miracle Mud". I am kind of skeptical about using a skimmer. Think about it; just because it pulls smelly stuff out of the water doesn't necessarily mean that that smelly stuff is bad. We add our human nature to something that for the most part, has done well without our interference. Just because it's nasty to us doesn't mean that other creatures feel the same way. The Dung beatle certainly comes to mind, here!!

And to add to the confusion, I recently purchased a Deltec AP600. It should be here in about a week or so. If the skimmer helps the system, great. If not, I can easily sell it in the classifieds. I too am curious as to whether or not a skimmer will improve the tank or not.

[murph1083]

if I was tro get one, do you think its worth it to get a bigger one then my reccomended size, the next ine up cost almost $150 more!

[Cutiewitbooty]

bigger is always better, if you can afford it go for it

[jasonkola]

I too am a little skeptical of the possibilities of not useing a skimmer. but I am also skeptical of a skimmer its self. I will try to explain both thoughts. first off I know there has been many many sucessfull reefs set up with a good protien skimmer as a big part of its success so its not a real bad thing. but it is not natural. and it could be a part of the reasons for the need for water changes and adding of many suplements which it might remove as well as some of the bad things like desolved organics. the question is can we remove those organics more naturally. I honestely think to some degree we can. as long as we dont create a system that has a greater bioload than the natural filtration we we are able to create within the system. I like to think against the grain and know that a system, although sucessfull can always be improved and or simplified.

[Nzomniak]

This seems like a very interesting possiblity to me, a friend of mine is currently using it and recommended it to me.

Something I just thought of: What does the Miracle Mud look like? I see pics on their website and it looks pretty, like white sand. Anybody have hands-on (eyes-on) experience?

[Cutiewitbooty]

from what i can remember it's brownish mud, but it doeas have little flakes of stuff in it thats kinda gold color.

[jasonkola]

I wander if those orange flakes were metel shavings which rusted to provide the mud with a source of iron? I don't know enough about chemistery to know if that would work. I wander if after a year or two when the mud was depleated and needed replacing if those orange flakes were gone? just a thought.

[rm]

I'm using one now. Had it for a few months. They do not recommend more sand than about 3/8" in the main tank and plenty of waterflow (1200g/h at least through the sump). I wanted a sandy bottom but ended up removing my 3/8 sandbed because it began forming dunes a the back of my tank (I push all 1200+ gallons/hr through the main tank, you can add a bypass and send some back through the sump). I like it better w/o the sand bottom and it's now covered with coralline algae.

I am having problems with hair algae growth. I did get some contrary advice on how to setup the mud system from my lfs. Not sure if this was the cause but Ecosystem put me back on track once I emailed them (they insist you follow their instructions to the letter for things to setup properly).

Re: the hair algae - I emailed them on the problem and they said 3-4hrs of skimming in the evening till I get things back under control is ok but continuous use defeats the purpose of the mud system (maybe takes too much food from the corals). Also told them I was adding a phosban reactor and they agreed this was a good idea and could be run all the time unlike the skimmer.

My chemicals are always good. However, hair algae might be phospate related or me overfeeding (I think I'm not, and my nitrates are always good but the hair is there telling me otherwise).

The mud does have gold shiny particles in it and is sandy brown in color. You will have to change 1/2 out after the first two years then 1/2 per year after that according to ecosystem. Apparently the trace elements or whatever they put in the mud is all used up by then. I wish they chose a different name for it. Anything with the word miracle in it is just asking to be attacked (the high cost doesn't help either).

One thing about the high flow rate requirement. I will probably need a chiller when summer hits. I had a pump rated over 1200gph but I run the sump in the basement. Figure in the 8 foot rise to the tank and a few elbows and that pump was only giving me 400gph. Swithced it out for a blueline100 and flow is up above 1200 now.

So far I am pleased with the setup and the customer service. I am too new at this hobby to offer any comparison of MM to other methods.