Second tank cycling questions.

[sequential]

After losing two damsels and a tube worm to problems caused by my very large black long spined urchin, I decided to move the urchin to a new tank. On the advice of my local fish store, I purchased live sand, enough to cover 2 - 3 inches on the bottom of the empty 20g wide. The sales people suggested doing a normal water change in my 38g tank, but instead of discarding the water like normal, they suggested that I use it as the basis for my 20g. (A water test in the 38g prior to the change yielded normal salinity, pH, nitrite, nitrate, and amonia levels.)

For the remaining space, they suggested I use newly mixed water. The 20g also got a new filter, with sufficient power to handle a 40g tank. When I asked them if I needed to wait for the tank to cycle before putting the urchin in, the sales people agreed that I didn't need to wait.

Perhaps predictably, the advice doesn't seem to be perfect. After testing within normal parameters for the first five days, the nitrite levels have started to rise, but still aren't worrisome. When I returned to the store to ask what to do, I got a sales pitch, funny looks, and very little reassurance about the advice the previous sales person had given me. When I asked if I should let the tank cycle or do a partial water change, they tried to sell me something else.

What would you do with the 20g with rising nitrites given these circumstances? Is it not time to worry yet? Do I remove the critters: snails, crabs (small hermits and an emerald), the urchin, and some live rock? Do I just do a partial water change, using water from my stable tank? Or something entirely different? Are any of the inhabitants in particular danger?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[bertoni]

If the tank has no filtration, you'll want to add some. I wouldn't count on live sand to deal with ammonia. It sounds like there's some live rock in it? If so, the move probably killed off some part of the live rock.

I would at least do some water changes. I don't see any reason to take water from the stable tank. That's not going to accomplish much. As far as pulling the animals, hard to say. Moving causes stress, but so does poor water quality. If it's only nitrite, they're probably safe, but you might also have some compounds from decay.

[DaveAngie79]

i would do a partial change useing water from your

38

[cubanheat1]

Leave the LR,run the filter,add a protien skimmer if you can(believe me they always help) keep the hermits and crabs.There bullet proof. Do a water change with new mixed water not from your 38g after 2 weeks. check the levels again.Also are you using RO water?live stock should be ok. wait a while for the urchin and othe live stock. post if you need more help

[sequential]

Originally posted by bertoni
If the tank has no filtration, you'll want to add some. I wouldn't count on live sand to deal with ammonia. It sounds like there's some live rock in it? If so, the move probably killed off some part of the live rock.

The tank has more than adequate filtration, but it is a new filter. On the other hand, I'm not sure how to judge whether there is enough water movement. Most of the urchin waste seems to gather and stay the end opposite the filter.

My LFS gave me the LR in a box, so I'm sure there was some decay, but the total out of water time was less than 60 minutes. Hopefully this is an acceptable amount of time.

I would at least do some water changes. I don't see any reason to take water from the stable tank. That's not going to accomplish much. As far as pulling the animals, hard to say. Moving causes stress, but so does poor water quality. If it's only nitrite, they're probably safe, but you might also have some compounds from decay.

Perhaps I misunderstood the suggestion, but I was under the impression they were telling me to use water from the stable tank to start the tank and to top it off. I'd prefer to share water between the two tanks with some sort of plumbing, but I haven't the first clue as to how I would accomplish this or whether this would be beneficial.

I'd prefer not to stress anything else out in the next week or more. I did a bunch of aquascaping today in the stable tank and my engineer gobies don't seem to thrilled that I destroyed their masterpiece. :-) Would a 10% water change in the new tank, if nitrates or ammonia picks, be less stressful than poor water quality?

I'm testing daily, so if I see any changes, I'll ask here before heading back to the LFS.

Thanks!

[sequential]

Originally posted by cubanheat1
Leave the LR,run the filter,add a protien skimmer if you can(believe me they always help) keep the hermits and crabs.There bullet proof. Do a water change with new mixed water not from your 38g after 2 weeks. check the levels again.Also are you using RO water?live stock should be ok. wait a while for the urchin and othe live stock. post if you need more help

I got the skimmer sales pitch today from my LFS. At $200 for their smallest skimmer, I couldn't afford it. The 20g has about 10 lbs of live rock, 10 lbs of rock, and between 2 to 3 inches of live sand. Though I understand from what I've repeatedly read here that the skimmer always helps, I just can't afford $200, so I've compensated with surface area for biological filtration and an efficient clean up crew. (I got my first mexican turbos this week. I can't begin to put into words my deepest appreciation for the amazing appetites they have!)

Would RO water help? Better yet, is it worth $1/gallon?

Thanks for your suggestions. Hopefully, as I save some money and research the best way to upgrade my two tanks, I'll move to a system that includes a skimmer. Any suggestion on what skimmer(s) would be appropriate for a 20g and a 38g?

Living on a student buget and being marine aquarium enthusiast do not mix well. :-)

[bertoni]

Okay, the new filtration might take some time to get going. I would watch the parameters carefully. You could also remove the urchin waste by hand for a while.

Some animals, mostly sponges, die on contact with air, so moving live rock is always a gamble. I think 20% changes should be fine if you match the SG carefully. That shouldn't cause any stress if the new saltwater has been aerated thoroughly.

"Topoff" usually means replacing water lost to evaporation, and should be fresh water.

Plumbing the two tanks together might help create a more stable system. You'd want to treat one as a refugium. Pump water from the lower tank to the higher tank, and let the higher tank overflow back down into the other. I'm not sure that it's worth the effort, though.

[bertoni]

For small tanks like that, a used CPR BakPak might not be too bad an idea. I'm testing the CoraLife SuperSkimmer, which seems okay as well, so far.

[sequential]

Originally posted by bertoni
Okay, the new filtration might take some time to get going. I would watch the parameters carefully. You could also remove the urchin waste by hand for a while.

Remove it by hand? When you say it, it seems so obvious! *hits self on the head* :-)

Some animals, mostly sponges, die on contact with air, so moving live rock is always a gamble. I think 20% changes should be fine if you match the SG carefully. That shouldn't cause any stress if the new saltwater has been aerated thoroughly.

"aerated", used in this context, is new to me. When I prepare new saltwater, I pour five gallons of tap water into a six gallon bucket, carefully mix in salt in measured amounts (1/2 cup, I think) until I get close the the SG, but not too close or above. Then I let the water sit for a few hours (generally 3 - 4), stirring regularly, and checking the SG in case I need to make any changes. Changes constitute adding more salt or more fresh water. By this time, the salt appears dissolved and I add the water to the tank.

Writing this all down makes me realize that I don't check the temperatures before I add it. Is this important to do? (The water appears to be close to room temp when I add it to the bucket, but that's just to the touch.)

"Topoff" usually means replacing water lost to evaporation, and should be fresh water.

That's my misuse of the word. I was trying to refer to the water added after I remove water for a water change.

The only time I have ever used saltwater to topoff after evaporation is when, after evaporation my SG went down, not up. Only happened once and still seems counterintuitive to me. (It was a long time ago, when the 38g was not yet stable.)

Plumbing the two tanks together might help create a more stable system. You'd want to treat one as a refugium. Pump water from the lower tank to the higher tank, and let the higher tank overflow back down into the other. I'm not sure that it's worth the effort, though.

If you have time to elaborate on your final statement, I'd certainly be interested. The 20g, when I originally used it, was much harder to keep stable (temperature and chemistry wise). My understanding was that by combining the two tanks with plumbing, I'd create an even more stable tank than the 38g.

Once again, bertoni, thank you for all the time you've taken to answer my questions.

[bertoni]

When saltwater has just been mixed, some circulation will help the solution exchange gasses with the air. That can help bring pH in line, etc. I just use a small pump or powerhead. The salt I use mixes to a high pH, so I am careful about that.

As long as the water change is relatively small (20% or so), the temperature doesn't much matter, at least if the water's inside.

This page has an animation of how a sump works:

http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html

Your setup would be similar because you don't need any of the baffles. I would just mount the pump up from the bottom of the tank.