LED array to grow coral - Data posted

zachtos · 02/04/2006, 11:46 AM

LUX readings have arrived. I dont have any powerful lighting to test right now... So tell me if these results are good or not compared to MH

left out 0" because that measurment skews the graph, and is not practical for real life application.

are these numbers good enough for SPS/clams??? don't be biased and say "you need MH etc blah blah blah". Use the posted results please.

Zachtos' Array

zachtos · 02/04/2006, 11:48 AM

I have posted this in reef discussion to discuss if Clams/SPS can be kept, but I am posting in the equipment section to see if you can get me LUX data for metal halide, Powercompacts and VHO... I know they're out there somewhere!

horkn · 02/05/2006, 12:09 PM

dr sanjay has a sthread that i do belive is clipped to the top of page 1 here on the lighting forum.

you really need a t5ho setup or mh setups to determine if you can keep sps/ clams...

i keep both in my t5ho driven tank.

I think the led setup you have is really sweet, looks wise, so lets see if we cant get info to show how it compares to t5ho and mh

zachtos · 02/07/2006, 09:55 AM

actual measurments done by myself compared to mh. apparently I'm about 90% of the lux of a 20,000K MH 250W HQI @4mo old

dhoch · 02/07/2006, 11:02 AM

zachtos,

Rather than lux measurements (which is visiable light) you should do PAR measurements (which is photosynthetic active light... i.e. light that corals will use.

Just a comment.

Dave

balberth · 02/07/2006, 11:26 AM

zachtos,

Looks like you've got a lot of light. How many watts is your LED array pulling?

Given that car companies are developing LED headlights, I do not doubt that eventually we'll get to the point where LED lighting for aquariums is a viable option. Whether the tradeoffs between cost, convenience, lamp life and efficiency work out in favor of LED's, I do not know.

The only way you're going to find out if you can grow corals under that thing is to try it and see. Based on the data you've given us so far, I don't see why you could not. Please keep us up to date and let us know whether you achieve success.

--Albert

wetWolger · 02/07/2006, 12:26 PM

in reality the data give does not say if you can keep sps/clams or any corals really. I imagine softies will be fine, sps and clams are a whole nother issue. You need to know the spectrum they are giving off. And PAR would be a much better scale than LUX.

btw....that tank is FAR too small for any clam

horkn · 02/07/2006, 12:30 PM

naw, even a young squammie or gigas could fit in there. well, until they outgrow it...

i got my 3" squammie for 12 bux. they are relatively forgiving to light quality, so if it doesnt do great, it wont(hopefully ) die

best thing to do is see if any local reefers will give you little frags. start with softies, and see how they do, then go from there...

s10willy · 02/07/2006, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by balberth
zachtos,

Looks like you've got a lot of light. How many watts is your LED array pulling?

Given that car companies are developing LED headlights, I do not doubt that eventually we'll get to the point where LED lighting for aquariums is a viable option. Whether the tradeoffs between cost, convenience, lamp life and efficiency work out in favor of LED's, I do not know.

The only way you're going to find out if you can grow corals under that thing is to try it and see. Based on the data you've given us so far, I don't see why you could not. Please keep us up to date and let us know whether you achieve success.

--Albert

At least one company is already manufacturing the LED arrays. We had a company last month address our local reef club about their products. They are in the process of setting up an experiment to show the growth of coral under these lights. Should be very interesting.

zachtos · 02/07/2006, 01:13 PM

Zachtos' Array

Zachtos array at NANO-reef forums

These are my running LOG forums in which more detail is given.

The array is about 40W power consumption, gives about 90% LUX of a 250W 20,000K MH bulb but only lights an area 6"x12" max at it's given size.

SPECTRUM supposedly resembles 7000K and I supplemented w/ 465nm and 410nm lighting, the LEDs lack 450nm and under.

I don't plan to place a clam in this small tank but might do it when I'm closer to getting a larger tank. I will however place an SPS or two in here to experiment.

I do not wish to spend $300 for a PAR mtr, but if someone was willing to loan me a PAR mtr, I could paypal the shipping charges, take a reading and then send it back. I assure you that I would return it! I only care about giving the community information concerning LED's potential for reefkeeping! That is the only real way I can tell you how good this lighting scheme really is in comparison.

horkn · 02/07/2006, 08:09 PM

i think even without use of a par meter, growing frags form local reefers will speak everything that people really care about.. not numbers but nice healthy growing coral

zachtos · 02/08/2006, 09:25 AM

I have specs of corraline growth all over my PH and foam wall near the top of the tank already w/ only 5 days of LED lighting.

3S1K · 02/08/2006, 11:08 AM

I really like your idea and the setup looks sweet.Are you cycling the tank right now?If not then try a photsynthetic coral and see how it does with some real world results. My bet is it will do well

Email him and see if he will let you borrow a Par meter.
http://www.caddnima.com/myreef/misc/250page.htm

raaden · 02/08/2006, 12:44 PM

I am trying to find a couple of articles I have seen on LED Arrays used against conventional lights (MH and PC), but they are escaping me at the moment. I am working on something like this as well and I have found in research that there are two major benefits to using LED arrays besides the fact that they consume much less power and require no bulb replacement.

The light itself is better in two ways
1. It is purely directional in nature. There is little to no diffusion from LED light which would allow you to create light zones for different coral needs.
2. Each portion of the light is discreet. You can mix the spectrum how you want by mixing the wavelength of the individual LED's that are used to make up the array. In this you can create a pure actinic by using UV LED's or you can mix them in varying degrees with pure white LED's to create a mixed spectrum.

To your point about UV, there are UV LED's out there; kinda expensive but... They start right at the sweet spot for zooxanthellae absorption; 365nm, and there are also 385nm LED's which can bridge the gap to a viewable spectrum with the whites. Without getting too far into it there is relatively little visible light from the 365's, and the 385's give the needed blue color we all like. Add in about 45% white light and you have a great looking spread, while still maximizing the photosynthesis.

I am not yet at the testing phase of this but a quick SWAG of your setup would say that if you can get about 15% of the light below 410nm which is possible depending on the LED's you are using they will provide adaquate growth for all but the most intensive of SPS.

The mixture that I mentioned at the two paras up with 45watts of power is (according to the numbers) going to produce equivalent PAR readings to a 250w pendant @ 18", and will have a softy zone and a SPS zone. I am also trying out a pink mixture to see if I can get that to produce some red pigmentation in specimens that have that coloration already. Not sure how this will work but it will be fun.

zachtos, if you want more specifics let me know and I can share some of what I have.

zachtos · 02/08/2006, 02:12 PM

the tank is 2mo. old and only has GSP right now, I'm actually going to the LFS today to get some new frags... thinking of some random SPS frag, ricordia, xenia, mushroom, and maybe a polyp. We shall see.

I could never find a real answer as to if coral needs light under the 465nm region, alot of ppl think it was just for deep water corals and that it may not be needed period if it is 5m deep corals. I would have used 400nm or less if they were available or if i knew if they wer really needed. I'll be finding out the hard way over the coming months.

AudiSteve · 02/08/2006, 05:10 PM

I would recommend if your going to put corals into this tank that they should be aquacultured to reduce variables. Knowing that these corals live successfully in other tanks will give you a soild foundation to base on the mortality of these corals in the LED tank.

raaden · 02/08/2006, 09:40 PM

I would think that with the numbers that you have and the fact that the light is white in nature you will be ok with PAR Spectrum for probably all of what you have listed. The fact that you have coralline growth indicates that you probably have light needed for zoox as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by zachtos

I could never find a real answer as to if coral needs light under the 465nm region, alot of ppl think it was just for deep water corals and that it may not be needed period if it is 5m deep corals.

I have a bunch of notes on light spectrums and usages by studied corals if you are interested I can send it to you. The real point is that all actinic and 10k lamps have their highest peaks at 365nm, 410 and 585. In addition there is significant studies that show that most coral pigmentation is used to control light in 365-385 and as high as the 410 range.

Who makes the LED's that you used??

zachtos · 02/08/2006, 10:34 PM

besthongkong.com

well some bad news. 6 of my LEDs died already which caused 6 arrays of 10 to go out. after investigating the cause, it has been determined that heat caused the LED array to reduce the internal resistance of the LEDs causing too much current to go into them. some strings were getting as high as 32mA when fully hot. they start at 25mA cool and then climb. the LEDs are rated for 30mA so who knows how much damage has been done. I changed out the resistor in the array to a much larger one nearly twice its size (150ohm instead of 91.5ohm). this gives a current between 22mA and 24mA when hot. much better on the LEDs, but I'm betting more will die.

I also changed out several UV bulbs and their resistors also, due to the same problem. The UVs are very confusing though, but I dont care, I'm just happy they work since you cant tell if they get more or less intense visually anyways.

I also picked up some frags:
2-kenya tree
1-ricordia
1-green mushroom
1-"hydro" neon green SPS

I wont bother light acclimation since the LUX is now severly reduced by lowering the current. It has dropped to nearly 10,000-12,000 LUX at the surface as opposed to the 20,000-18,000 LUX acheived before... a 60% decrease in light output apparently. I will get you more detailed numbers when I'm not so tired this weekend. I still think the LEDs are plenty powerful enough for this small tank, but am very discouraged for their use in larger tanks now. I do have an insane amount of corraline growth over the last week though. I cant really believe it can grow that fast! nearly my entire top portion of the foam wall is covered in speckles. My macro has grown grown nearly 30% more this week. This may all be slowing down though due to the lowered LUX numbers to help protect my lights. I'm just hoping more LEDs dont burn out.

02/04/2006, 11:46 AM	#1
zachtos Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,161	LED array to grow coral - Data posted LUX readings have arrived. I dont have any powerful lighting to test right now... So tell me if these results are good or not compared to MH left out 0" because that measurment skews the graph, and is not practical for real life application. are these numbers good enough for SPS/clams??? don't be biased and say "you need MH etc blah blah blah". Use the posted results please. Zachtos' Array

02/05/2006, 12:09 PM	#3
horkn Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: milwaukee wisconsin Posts: 4,125	dr sanjay has a sthread that i do belive is clipped to the top of page 1 here on the lighting forum. you really need a t5ho setup or mh setups to determine if you can keep sps/ clams... i keep both in my t5ho driven tank. I think the led setup you have is really sweet, looks wise, so lets see if we cant get info to show how it compares to t5ho and mh __________________ people write stupid things in this space Current Tank Info: 200g DIY wood reef, 2x 250w SE 10k MH 2x80 t5ho, 75g sump, Geo Ca RX, ASD 6" recirc skimmer

02/07/2006, 11:02 AM	#5
dhoch Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,762	zachtos, Rather than lux measurements (which is visiable light) you should do PAR measurements (which is photosynthetic active light... i.e. light that corals will use. Just a comment. Dave __________________ Check out my tanks website... click the red box above my post Current Tank Info: 180 gal Acrylic, 29 gal refugium, 40 gal sump, Mag 18 -> 2 Sea Swirls, Tunze 6100, 8 x 80W overdriven T5 Lights, ASM G4 skimmer

02/07/2006, 12:26 PM	#7
wetWolger Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,955	in reality the data give does not say if you can keep sps/clams or any corals really. I imagine softies will be fine, sps and clams are a whole nother issue. You need to know the spectrum they are giving off. And PAR would be a much better scale than LUX. btw....that tank is FAR too small for any clam __________________ cheers, jent d-_-b Current Tank Info: 66gal = 32x24x20

02/07/2006, 12:30 PM	#8
horkn Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: milwaukee wisconsin Posts: 4,125	naw, even a young squammie or gigas could fit in there. well, until they outgrow it... i got my 3" squammie for 12 bux. they are relatively forgiving to light quality, so if it doesnt do great, it wont(hopefully ) die best thing to do is see if any local reefers will give you little frags. start with softies, and see how they do, then go from there... __________________ people write stupid things in this space Current Tank Info: 200g DIY wood reef, 2x 250w SE 10k MH 2x80 t5ho, 75g sump, Geo Ca RX, ASD 6" recirc skimmer

02/04/2006, 11:48 AM	#2
zachtos Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,161	I have posted this in reef discussion to discuss if Clams/SPS can be kept, but I am posting in the equipment section to see if you can get me LUX data for metal halide, Powercompacts and VHO... I know they're out there somewhere!

02/07/2006, 09:55 AM	#4
zachtos Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,161	actual measurments done by myself compared to mh. apparently I'm about 90% of the lux of a 20,000K MH 250W HQI @4mo old

02/07/2006, 11:26 AM	#6
balberth Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: California Posts: 56	zachtos, Looks like you've got a lot of light. How many watts is your LED array pulling? Given that car companies are developing LED headlights, I do not doubt that eventually we'll get to the point where LED lighting for aquariums is a viable option. Whether the tradeoffs between cost, convenience, lamp life and efficiency work out in favor of LED's, I do not know. The only way you're going to find out if you can grow corals under that thing is to try it and see. Based on the data you've given us so far, I don't see why you could not. Please keep us up to date and let us know whether you achieve success. --Albert

02/07/2006, 01:13 PM	#10
zachtos Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,161	Zachtos' Array Zachtos array at NANO-reef forums These are my running LOG forums in which more detail is given. The array is about 40W power consumption, gives about 90% LUX of a 250W 20,000K MH bulb but only lights an area 6"x12" max at it's given size. SPECTRUM supposedly resembles 7000K and I supplemented w/ 465nm and 410nm lighting, the LEDs lack 450nm and under. I don't plan to place a clam in this small tank but might do it when I'm closer to getting a larger tank. I will however place an SPS or two in here to experiment. I do not wish to spend $300 for a PAR mtr, but if someone was willing to loan me a PAR mtr, I could paypal the shipping charges, take a reading and then send it back. I assure you that I would return it! I only care about giving the community information concerning LED's potential for reefkeeping! That is the only real way I can tell you how good this lighting scheme really is in comparison.

02/07/2006, 08:09 PM	#11
horkn Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: milwaukee wisconsin Posts: 4,125	i think even without use of a par meter, growing frags form local reefers will speak everything that people really care about.. not numbers but nice healthy growing coral __________________ people write stupid things in this space Current Tank Info: 200g DIY wood reef, 2x 250w SE 10k MH 2x80 t5ho, 75g sump, Geo Ca RX, ASD 6" recirc skimmer

02/08/2006, 09:25 AM	#12
zachtos Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,161	I have specs of corraline growth all over my PH and foam wall near the top of the tank already w/ only 5 days of LED lighting.

02/08/2006, 11:08 AM	#13
3S1K Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 391	I really like your idea and the setup looks sweet.Are you cycling the tank right now?If not then try a photsynthetic coral and see how it does with some real world results. My bet is it will do well Email him and see if he will let you borrow a Par meter. http://www.caddnima.com/myreef/misc/250page.htm

02/08/2006, 12:44 PM	#14
raaden Registered Member. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Raleigh NC Posts: 505	I am trying to find a couple of articles I have seen on LED Arrays used against conventional lights (MH and PC), but they are escaping me at the moment. I am working on something like this as well and I have found in research that there are two major benefits to using LED arrays besides the fact that they consume much less power and require no bulb replacement. The light itself is better in two ways 1. It is purely directional in nature. There is little to no diffusion from LED light which would allow you to create light zones for different coral needs. 2. Each portion of the light is discreet. You can mix the spectrum how you want by mixing the wavelength of the individual LED's that are used to make up the array. In this you can create a pure actinic by using UV LED's or you can mix them in varying degrees with pure white LED's to create a mixed spectrum. To your point about UV, there are UV LED's out there; kinda expensive but... They start right at the sweet spot for zooxanthellae absorption; 365nm, and there are also 385nm LED's which can bridge the gap to a viewable spectrum with the whites. Without getting too far into it there is relatively little visible light from the 365's, and the 385's give the needed blue color we all like. Add in about 45% white light and you have a great looking spread, while still maximizing the photosynthesis. I am not yet at the testing phase of this but a quick SWAG of your setup would say that if you can get about 15% of the light below 410nm which is possible depending on the LED's you are using they will provide adaquate growth for all but the most intensive of SPS. The mixture that I mentioned at the two paras up with 45watts of power is (according to the numbers) going to produce equivalent PAR readings to a 250w pendant @ 18", and will have a softy zone and a SPS zone. I am also trying out a pink mixture to see if I can get that to produce some red pigmentation in specimens that have that coloration already. Not sure how this will work but it will be fun. zachtos, if you want more specifics let me know and I can share some of what I have.

02/08/2006, 02:12 PM	#15
zachtos Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,161	the tank is 2mo. old and only has GSP right now, I'm actually going to the LFS today to get some new frags... thinking of some random SPS frag, ricordia, xenia, mushroom, and maybe a polyp. We shall see. I could never find a real answer as to if coral needs light under the 465nm region, alot of ppl think it was just for deep water corals and that it may not be needed period if it is 5m deep corals. I would have used 400nm or less if they were available or if i knew if they wer really needed. I'll be finding out the hard way over the coming months.

02/08/2006, 05:10 PM	#16
AudiSteve Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 77	I would recommend if your going to put corals into this tank that they should be aquacultured to reduce variables. Knowing that these corals live successfully in other tanks will give you a soild foundation to base on the mortality of these corals in the LED tank.

02/08/2006, 10:34 PM	#18
zachtos Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,161	besthongkong.com well some bad news. 6 of my LEDs died already which caused 6 arrays of 10 to go out. after investigating the cause, it has been determined that heat caused the LED array to reduce the internal resistance of the LEDs causing too much current to go into them. some strings were getting as high as 32mA when fully hot. they start at 25mA cool and then climb. the LEDs are rated for 30mA so who knows how much damage has been done. I changed out the resistor in the array to a much larger one nearly twice its size (150ohm instead of 91.5ohm). this gives a current between 22mA and 24mA when hot. much better on the LEDs, but I'm betting more will die. I also changed out several UV bulbs and their resistors also, due to the same problem. The UVs are very confusing though, but I dont care, I'm just happy they work since you cant tell if they get more or less intense visually anyways. I also picked up some frags: 2-kenya tree 1-ricordia 1-green mushroom 1-"hydro" neon green SPS I wont bother light acclimation since the LUX is now severly reduced by lowering the current. It has dropped to nearly 10,000-12,000 LUX at the surface as opposed to the 20,000-18,000 LUX acheived before... a 60% decrease in light output apparently. I will get you more detailed numbers when I'm not so tired this weekend. I still think the LEDs are plenty powerful enough for this small tank, but am very discouraged for their use in larger tanks now. I do have an insane amount of corraline growth over the last week though. I cant really believe it can grow that fast! nearly my entire top portion of the foam wall is covered in speckles. My macro has grown grown nearly 30% more this week. This may all be slowing down though due to the lowered LUX numbers to help protect my lights. I'm just hoping more LEDs dont burn out.