Electrical questions...

reverendmaynard · 02/19/2006, 08:01 AM

Hey guys,

I would like to wire up some dedicated circuits for my tank. 2 20a breakers should be sufficient. My problem is that my breaker box is just about filled up, and may be completely full. The only slots that are open are the 2 directly across from the 100a main breaker. Are these slots usable for my purposes, or are they meant for use as an additional main (1 main for each side of the panel?)

If they are usable, is there something that needs to be done to make them so?

If they are not, how difficult would it be to add a subpanel or something?

How about replacing existing breakers with the half size breakers?

I'm not very experienced with home wiring, but it seems relatively simple to me. As long as what I'm working on is shut off by the main breaker, I'd be comfortable doing it. If there's a thread or site that details how to do whatever the best option is, that would be great.

TIA,
Reverend Maynard.

smoknreefrs · 02/19/2006, 08:15 AM

the 2 slots next to your main are fine to use

but, if you only have a 100amp main breaker you may be overloading the service....

here is what i would do:

add up the number of amps for each breaker, if it is more than 100 amps then you have potential of overlaoding the main, if this happens everytime you turn on something that requires al lot of amps (vacuum cleaner, hair dryer, heater) you could trip the main instead of just the breaker that it is on...

then again it could work perfectly, but, i would reccommend upgrading the service if you total of the breakers is more than the main....

reverendmaynard · 02/19/2006, 08:24 AM

Thanks for the reply.

I have everything on the tank running now off of existing circuits. It's winter, so I'm not running any ACs, but I do have to run a lot of heaters in my tanks because I've got the 125g SW and a 55g fw in the basement that's in the 50s in the winter, so current draw on the tank in the summer should be less. No electric large appliances (furnace, water heater, oven, dryer, all gas), so I think 100 amp should be sufficient. Besides, I don't think I feel comfortable trying to upgrade the service my self. How much does something like that normally cost?

I'm gonna go down and take some pics of my panel and wiring. This may help everyone to understand what I'm dealing with.

smoknreefrs · 02/19/2006, 08:31 AM

it could run anywhere from 1300-2000, depending on the condition of the exsisting wiring, area you live in, and the contractor you choose...

keep in mind though, it is an investment, and a selling point for the home, it can raise the value of a home considerably... but more importantly, once it is done, man is it great to have a 200 amp service...

reverendmaynard · 02/19/2006, 08:52 AM

Here's some pics. It looks like there's already 200 amps worth of breakers in there!

KevinM · 02/19/2006, 10:38 AM

If you go by the amp count on the breakers, ALL services would be overloaded.

There are percentages, for all loads, that are used to calculate service size. IOW, all those 20a circuits are not going to be drawing 20a all the time. The oven, dryer, heater, water heater, and A/C will not all be running at the same time.

A better way for you to see if you have some extra load available on that service would be to turn on all the lights in the house. Turn on any large electrical appliances, turn on the heat, and water heater, if they're electric. Then, when you have your load near maximum, use a clamp meter to read the current on each of those feeder wires connected to the main breaker. How close is it to 100a?

I only see one 2-pole breaker (besides the main, of course), so it looks like most of your large appliances are gas. If so, that's good for you in this situation.

(One question, though...what is that wire hanging in front of that switch? It looks like it was hooked up to something at some point.)

Check that load and let us know!

Kev

Fast Fred · 02/19/2006, 11:26 AM

Hey Rev,

Did ya get an answer to your Q?

reverendmaynard · 02/19/2006, 12:39 PM

Kevin - That's a ground wire that the cable company attached to one of the screws that holds the front panel of the box on when they installed the phones. You can see it attached in the top photo.

I have no large electrical appliances. I have about 15amps (max draw) worth of window ACs that I run in the summer.

Like I said, the tank is running on the existing circuits now, has been for about 2 months now, with no problems with breakers tripping, so I'm pretty sure I have the capacity on the main. Whether that remains true through all possible situations, I don't know. I think I feel more comfortable possibly overloading the main during certain high power situations (that would hopefully occur while I was there and could be quickly remedied) than I do plugging into circuits that have unknown quality of wires, and possibly other draws on them. Not to mention that the current outlets are not that close to the tank, so I have to use extension cords.

The original question was as to whether I can use the two open slots in my panel, assuming I have the capacity on the main. Smoknreefers says yes. I'm running the tank, and have no problems with breakers tripping. I think that means I have the capacity. I'll have to see what I can do about testing the draw, but all the high power drawing stuff I might use, are generally plug in type things, including the ACs, which are in storage. I just want to be clear that those two slots are usable for breakers and are controlled by the main breaker. Someone I had look at it said he wasn't sure, but I'm not sure he knows any more than I do on the subject. Is it an obvious "yes" or does it depend on the type of box?

smoknreefrs · 02/19/2006, 01:03 PM

looking at the picture, it seems like you can use a 2 stab-in type breaker in that slot.......

i would also have to disgree with Kevin in regards to loads, percentages, and calculations (i could get into it a lot more than is neccessary for this thread, but why????)...however i am an electrician in NYC, and the codes here are FAR more strict than those in the states and whats in National Electrical Code....

could you get a better shot of the slot , so kevin or myself can a give you a certain response

reverendmaynard · 02/19/2006, 01:57 PM

sure!

reverendmaynard · 02/19/2006, 02:49 PM

smoknreefrs · 02/19/2006, 03:16 PM

yup that will do it...you can get (2) 20 amp single pole stab in type breakers...home depot should have 'em

remember, just for safety, when you turn the main off turn off all the breakers too, when you finish installing the 2 breakers turn on the main first (make sure the other breakers are off), then turn on each breaker (after you turned on the main breaker), that way there is no load on the main breaker....

BeanAnimal · 02/19/2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smoknreefrs
the 2 slots next to your main are fine to use

but, if you only have a 100amp main breaker you may be overloading the service....

here is what i would do:

add up the number of amps for each breaker, if it is more than 100 amps then you have potential of overlaoding the main, if this happens everytime you turn on something that requires al lot of amps (vacuum cleaner, hair dryer, heater) you could trip the main instead of just the breaker that it is on...

then again it could work perfectly, but, i would reccommend upgrading the service if you total of the breakers is more than the main....

I hate to disagree here, esp with an electrician but I just don't think that is good advice... safe advice yes, good advice no. Its like telling a person to upagrade to a 2hp chiller before you know what is causing their heat problem. It will make the situation better, but may not be the best advice until the situation is looked at further.

I challenge anybody here to add up the total rating of the breakers in their panels and come up with a number lass than the rating of the "main" breaker.

Upgrading to a 200A panel is of course an option, but so is just putting in a sub-panel. I don't know to many home owners that have ever tripped a 100A main in an average size house. Maybe if they have an arc welder or large compressor running with the AC and range cranked up.

I just re-wired the entire house and put in a 200A service. The big reason was simply WHY NOT and the number of spaces available in a 200A panel. I have had to add 2 sub-panels to the 40 space panel. My house is a 30x30 ranch with a finished basement.

For reference, with most of the house lights on, 9 computers running, 3 TIVOS on, the fireplace blower on, the aquarium running full tilt lights and all, 2 electric stove burners on high, and the overn heating with the refridgerator compressor on... I am pulling less than 60A off of my main panel. Add in the washer, TVS and AC and I would be hard pressed to trip a 100A breaker AND NEVER DID before the upgrade.

I am sure thatyou were trying to give safe advice and did so by giving advice that could not harm, no matter what the situation... but boy is that expensive advice if it's not needed.

I would also note, that just because a 200A service is added, does not mean that the homeowner is going to get 200A. My lights dim when anything that draws a modest amount of power is turned on. The reason is simple, the transformer on the pole and the lines in my neighborhood are pretty much at capacity. My service drop is likely too small for the distance it runs but well within the specs of the electric company (who does not have to follow the NEC).

So my advice is to consider a new panel, but before you do, look at how much current you are drawing (or have somebody do it for you). You can get a cheap clamp type meter at Sears. If your not in danger of overloading the main breaker, then add the circuits by eitherputting ht breakers in the main panel, or add a subpanel and move a few cictuits over to it.

Bean

BeanAnimal · 02/19/2006, 03:21 PM

I guess I should have read the whole thread before I replied, KEVIN said the same thing.

smoknreefrs what exactly do you "disagree with"? Everything he said is true, no matter what code you fall under. The calculations for different devices may be more stict and end up requiring a larger breaker, but that still does not make Kevins point invalid.

Bean

reverendmaynard · 02/19/2006, 03:26 PM

Thanks for the replys.

I just got done going through the house checking what's on each of the breakers. What a fun job. I'll type it out later and see what the best thing to do is.

BeanAnimal · 02/19/2006, 03:30 PM

You should have that info anyway. It makes troubleshooting so much easier and will help any future homeowner who comes after you.

The clamp on meters are pretty cheap and will prove useful over the years. It is unfortunate that mine cost over $300, as I just had to have one when they were new to the market years ago. It is less capable than the units they sell at sears for $20 now.

Bean

Fast Fred · 02/20/2006, 12:16 AM

Rev,

It looks as if those 2 spaces in the upper left corner of the panel are usable. However, my question is this: If they are usable, then why did somebody add a sub-panel next to your main panel instead of using the existing available spaces?

reverendmaynard · 02/20/2006, 06:37 AM

That's a very good question, that I don't know the answer to. What's strange is that each of those slots on that sub panel are controlled by breakers in the main panel as well. One 15a breaker in the main controls the 15a in the sub, and one 20a in the main controls the double 20a in the sub.

My guess is the sub panel was added first, then the main panel was upgraded later.

BeanAnimal · 02/20/2006, 08:01 AM

Youve lost me. How can a breaker in the main control a breaker in the sub? Breakers have to clip on to the bus bar, so a breaker can not feed another breaker, unless of course it is being back fed, which is not a good thing in most cases. I may of course be reading what your wrote and not getting it. It may not be a subpanel, but instead it could be a dsconnect panel, similar to the one used for your AC unit. Still strange.

A sub panel should be fed off of a double pole breaker in the main panel. This feed should go to a set of lugs in the sub panel. This set of lugs either feeds the bus bar directly or feeds a MAIN BREAKER for the sub panel. Both are allowable by NEC code. It's nice to be able to throw the sub panels main breaker when it is in a remote location. If the sub is next to the main, it's a waste of a $75 breaker.

Fast Fred maybe something was removed, or the 100A panel is newer than the sub panel? Or whoever did the work did not want to max out the sub panel for some reason (I like to leave a spare space or two if I can). I dunno... this whole setup is starting to sound kind of strange though.

reverendmaynard · 02/20/2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
or the 100A panel is newer than the sub panel?

I believe this is the case. You can see the wire that connects the panels is the old braided insulation type. The wire that connects the 2 panels is the one coming out the bottom of the sub, and is the one to the left of the doorbell transformer going into the main. There are 2 hot wires, each running to a breaker in the main. By turning on and off the breakers, I determined that turning off the breaker in the main does the same thing as turning off the breaker in the sub, or vice versa, except the 20a circuit has 2 20a breakers in the sub. Shutting off the 20a in the main shuts off both of the 20s in the sub. The 20s in the sub control different things.

I don't know how it works, but it does.

It sounds like I could free up some more slots in the main panel if I rewired the sub to run off the main breaker instead, but since I have extra slots already, and no real need for more capacity, I'm not gonna screw with it.

BeanAnimal · 02/20/2006, 12:50 PM

Sounds like the sub is hooked to 2 single pole breakers? With a double pole and a single pole in the sub?

This sub should be fed from a double pole breaker, or two single poles with a handle tie. This is known as a feeder breaker. If I am not mistaken, code says that they need to be of equal value and type also. An electrician may be able to better tell you what is code and what is not... if you care.

The sub will not run off the main breaker.... (see above). It will use 2 slots no matter what. You can move circuits to the subpanel, but will need to be aware of the feeder breaker size and wire size feeding the sub panel. You may be limited in how much the sub panel can carry simply due to the wire size, breaker and rating of the panel. It looks to be a 60A panel or so... but I can't tell from the photo.

JUst use hte two spaces in the main panel, and if in doubt ask an electrician to take a look at it.

reverendmaynard · 02/20/2006, 01:09 PM

That's the plan!

Thanks alot guys. I'll keep you posted on the project.

Actually, I might as well throw in another question while I'm at it. I've heard of some new AFCI breakers (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters). Should I use them? Are there any cons? Is there such a thing as an AFCI/GFCI breaker? Is using that type of breaker better or worse than using similar type outlets? Is daisy chaining to use a single GFCI receptacle to control a bunch of recepticles good or bad? Any thoughts on correct use of either of these types of circuit protection is welcomed.

Thanks again,
Reverand Maynard.

BeanAnimal · 02/20/2006, 02:14 PM

NO such thing as GFCI/ACI builtn into one unit. Use GFCI recepticles, not breakrs. They are cheaper and you don't get stuck with a nuisance trip shutting down the whole circuit.

AFCI are really of no use for your aquarium and are not very good for anything. The idea is to prevent arcing from starting a fire. They are required in bedroom because some statistic showed that an arcing fire in a bedroom usually results in death due to the fact that arcing fires cause smoldering and noxious fumes long before the fire alarm or heat would wake the sleeping victims. They are prone to nuisance tripping much more so than a GFCI and are really not suitable for any type of complex load.

Bean

reverendmaynard · 02/20/2006, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
NO such thing as GFCI/ACI builtn into one unit. Use GFCI recepticles, not breakrs. They are cheaper and you don't get stuck with a nuisance trip shutting down the whole circuit.

AFCI are really of no use for your aquarium and are not very good for anything. The idea is to prevent arcing from starting a fire. They are required in bedroom because some statistic showed that an arcing fire in a bedroom usually results in death due to the fact that arcing fires cause smoldering and noxious fumes long before the fire alarm or heat would wake the sleeping victims. They are prone to nuisance tripping much more so than a GFCI and are really not suitable for any type of complex load.

Bean

Thanks Bean, you've been very helpful.

Any thoughts on using one GFCI to protect multiple outlets?

I've heard of problems with them on ballasts, so I'll definitely be leaving my lights as non-GFCI, but everthing that actually goes in the tank or contains water I think should be.

BeanAnimal · 02/20/2006, 03:48 PM

It is just fine to protect multiple outlets with a GFCI. That is what they are designed to do. You simply connect the downstream recepticles to the LOAD side of the GFCI.

I however would put a gfci on each critical device, and not wire downstream loads to it. That way if the GFCI on the pump1 trips, pump2 keep cranking. We do this by attaching the HOT to each GFCI input. Neutral is Neutral, all the way to the pole. Code does prohibit shared neutral circuits unles they follow some basic guidlines and this relates to the amount of power that the neutral would be forced to carry between two phases....but alas Neutral is still Neutral. Again this is not what we are doing here.

I hope an electriciian will step in and explain this better than me. However I don't know many electricians that would admit that more than 1 GFCI could be used on a single branch circuit.

A dozen or so people are going to jump in here and say that you can't add more than one GFCI to a branch circuit, and they will be wrong. It is somewhat pointless to "daisy chain" them, but that is not what we are doing. We are taking a branch circuit and branching it into several individualy protected GFCI recepticles.

Don't get me wrong about the arc fault breakrs.... I am sure that they will save some lives. They are now part of the code for bedrooms and other sleeping quarters.

Bean

02/19/2006, 08:01 AM	#1
reverendmaynard Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: RI Posts: 1,490	Electrical questions... Hey guys, I would like to wire up some dedicated circuits for my tank. 2 20a breakers should be sufficient. My problem is that my breaker box is just about filled up, and may be completely full. The only slots that are open are the 2 directly across from the 100a main breaker. Are these slots usable for my purposes, or are they meant for use as an additional main (1 main for each side of the panel?) If they are usable, is there something that needs to be done to make them so? If they are not, how difficult would it be to add a subpanel or something? How about replacing existing breakers with the half size breakers? I'm not very experienced with home wiring, but it seems relatively simple to me. As long as what I'm working on is shut off by the main breaker, I'd be comfortable doing it. If there's a thread or site that details how to do whatever the best option is, that would be great. TIA, Reverend Maynard.

02/19/2006, 10:38 AM	#6
KevinM Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Dallas Posts: 752	If you go by the amp count on the breakers, ALL services would be overloaded. There are percentages, for all loads, that are used to calculate service size. IOW, all those 20a circuits are not going to be drawing 20a all the time. The oven, dryer, heater, water heater, and A/C will not all be running at the same time. A better way for you to see if you have some extra load available on that service would be to turn on all the lights in the house. Turn on any large electrical appliances, turn on the heat, and water heater, if they're electric. Then, when you have your load near maximum, use a clamp meter to read the current on each of those feeder wires connected to the main breaker. How close is it to 100a? I only see one 2-pole breaker (besides the main, of course), so it looks like most of your large appliances are gas. If so, that's good for you in this situation. (One question, though...what is that wire hanging in front of that switch? It looks like it was hooked up to something at some point.) Check that load and let us know! Kev __________________ "To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." Sun Tzu - The Art of War Current Tank Info: Custom 120g acrylic coming soon.

02/19/2006, 11:26 AM	#7
Fast Fred Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Northfield, NJ 08225 Posts: 1,170	Hey Rev, Did ya get an answer to your Q? __________________ Ya know, for a clown fish, you're not very funny! Member of the New Jersey Reefers Club Current Tank Info: 125g Reef Ready AGA /55g Top Fin Tank for a sump/refugium/ LifeReef Skimmer/ Changing over to SPS only

02/20/2006, 12:16 AM	#17
Fast Fred Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Northfield, NJ 08225 Posts: 1,170	Rev, It looks as if those 2 spaces in the upper left corner of the panel are usable. However, my question is this: If they are usable, then why did somebody add a sub-panel next to your main panel instead of using the existing available spaces? __________________ Ya know, for a clown fish, you're not very funny! Member of the New Jersey Reefers Club Current Tank Info: 125g Reef Ready AGA /55g Top Fin Tank for a sump/refugium/ LifeReef Skimmer/ Changing over to SPS only

02/19/2006, 08:15 AM	#2
smoknreefrs Moved On Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hackensack, NJ Posts: 669	the 2 slots next to your main are fine to use but, if you only have a 100amp main breaker you may be overloading the service.... here is what i would do: add up the number of amps for each breaker, if it is more than 100 amps then you have potential of overlaoding the main, if this happens everytime you turn on something that requires al lot of amps (vacuum cleaner, hair dryer, heater) you could trip the main instead of just the breaker that it is on... then again it could work perfectly, but, i would reccommend upgrading the service if you total of the breakers is more than the main....

02/19/2006, 08:24 AM	#3
reverendmaynard Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: RI Posts: 1,490	Thanks for the reply. I have everything on the tank running now off of existing circuits. It's winter, so I'm not running any ACs, but I do have to run a lot of heaters in my tanks because I've got the 125g SW and a 55g fw in the basement that's in the 50s in the winter, so current draw on the tank in the summer should be less. No electric large appliances (furnace, water heater, oven, dryer, all gas), so I think 100 amp should be sufficient. Besides, I don't think I feel comfortable trying to upgrade the service my self. How much does something like that normally cost? I'm gonna go down and take some pics of my panel and wiring. This may help everyone to understand what I'm dealing with.

02/19/2006, 08:31 AM	#4
smoknreefrs Moved On Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hackensack, NJ Posts: 669	it could run anywhere from 1300-2000, depending on the condition of the exsisting wiring, area you live in, and the contractor you choose... keep in mind though, it is an investment, and a selling point for the home, it can raise the value of a home considerably... but more importantly, once it is done, man is it great to have a 200 amp service...

02/19/2006, 08:52 AM	#5
reverendmaynard Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: RI Posts: 1,490	Here's some pics. It looks like there's already 200 amps worth of breakers in there!

02/19/2006, 12:39 PM	#8
reverendmaynard Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: RI Posts: 1,490	Kevin - That's a ground wire that the cable company attached to one of the screws that holds the front panel of the box on when they installed the phones. You can see it attached in the top photo. I have no large electrical appliances. I have about 15amps (max draw) worth of window ACs that I run in the summer. Like I said, the tank is running on the existing circuits now, has been for about 2 months now, with no problems with breakers tripping, so I'm pretty sure I have the capacity on the main. Whether that remains true through all possible situations, I don't know. I think I feel more comfortable possibly overloading the main during certain high power situations (that would hopefully occur while I was there and could be quickly remedied) than I do plugging into circuits that have unknown quality of wires, and possibly other draws on them. Not to mention that the current outlets are not that close to the tank, so I have to use extension cords. The original question was as to whether I can use the two open slots in my panel, assuming I have the capacity on the main. Smoknreefers says yes. I'm running the tank, and have no problems with breakers tripping. I think that means I have the capacity. I'll have to see what I can do about testing the draw, but all the high power drawing stuff I might use, are generally plug in type things, including the ACs, which are in storage. I just want to be clear that those two slots are usable for breakers and are controlled by the main breaker. Someone I had look at it said he wasn't sure, but I'm not sure he knows any more than I do on the subject. Is it an obvious "yes" or does it depend on the type of box?

02/19/2006, 01:03 PM	#9
smoknreefrs Moved On Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hackensack, NJ Posts: 669	looking at the picture, it seems like you can use a 2 stab-in type breaker in that slot....... i would also have to disgree with Kevin in regards to loads, percentages, and calculations (i could get into it a lot more than is neccessary for this thread, but why????)...however i am an electrician in NYC, and the codes here are FAR more strict than those in the states and whats in National Electrical Code.... could you get a better shot of the slot , so kevin or myself can a give you a certain response

02/19/2006, 01:57 PM	#10
reverendmaynard Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: RI Posts: 1,490	sure!

02/19/2006, 02:49 PM	#11
reverendmaynard Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: RI Posts: 1,490

02/19/2006, 03:16 PM	#12
smoknreefrs Moved On Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hackensack, NJ Posts: 669	yup that will do it...you can get (2) 20 amp single pole stab in type breakers...home depot should have 'em remember, just for safety, when you turn the main off turn off all the breakers too, when you finish installing the 2 breakers turn on the main first (make sure the other breakers are off), then turn on each breaker (after you turned on the main breaker), that way there is no load on the main breaker....

02/19/2006, 03:21 PM	#14
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	I guess I should have read the whole thread before I replied, KEVIN said the same thing. smoknreefrs what exactly do you "disagree with"? Everything he said is true, no matter what code you fall under. The calculations for different devices may be more stict and end up requiring a larger breaker, but that still does not make Kevins point invalid. Bean

02/19/2006, 03:26 PM	#15
reverendmaynard Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: RI Posts: 1,490	Thanks for the replys. I just got done going through the house checking what's on each of the breakers. What a fun job. I'll type it out later and see what the best thing to do is.

02/19/2006, 03:30 PM	#16
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	You should have that info anyway. It makes troubleshooting so much easier and will help any future homeowner who comes after you. The clamp on meters are pretty cheap and will prove useful over the years. It is unfortunate that mine cost over $300, as I just had to have one when they were new to the market years ago. It is less capable than the units they sell at sears for $20 now. Bean

02/20/2006, 06:37 AM	#18
reverendmaynard Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: RI Posts: 1,490	That's a very good question, that I don't know the answer to. What's strange is that each of those slots on that sub panel are controlled by breakers in the main panel as well. One 15a breaker in the main controls the 15a in the sub, and one 20a in the main controls the double 20a in the sub. My guess is the sub panel was added first, then the main panel was upgraded later.

02/20/2006, 08:01 AM	#19
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Youve lost me. How can a breaker in the main control a breaker in the sub? Breakers have to clip on to the bus bar, so a breaker can not feed another breaker, unless of course it is being back fed, which is not a good thing in most cases. I may of course be reading what your wrote and not getting it. It may not be a subpanel, but instead it could be a dsconnect panel, similar to the one used for your AC unit. Still strange. A sub panel should be fed off of a double pole breaker in the main panel. This feed should go to a set of lugs in the sub panel. This set of lugs either feeds the bus bar directly or feeds a MAIN BREAKER for the sub panel. Both are allowable by NEC code. It's nice to be able to throw the sub panels main breaker when it is in a remote location. If the sub is next to the main, it's a waste of a $75 breaker. Fast Fred maybe something was removed, or the 100A panel is newer than the sub panel? Or whoever did the work did not want to max out the sub panel for some reason (I like to leave a spare space or two if I can). I dunno... this whole setup is starting to sound kind of strange though.

02/20/2006, 12:50 PM	#21
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Sounds like the sub is hooked to 2 single pole breakers? With a double pole and a single pole in the sub? This sub should be fed from a double pole breaker, or two single poles with a handle tie. This is known as a feeder breaker. If I am not mistaken, code says that they need to be of equal value and type also. An electrician may be able to better tell you what is code and what is not... if you care. The sub will not run off the main breaker.... (see above). It will use 2 slots no matter what. You can move circuits to the subpanel, but will need to be aware of the feeder breaker size and wire size feeding the sub panel. You may be limited in how much the sub panel can carry simply due to the wire size, breaker and rating of the panel. It looks to be a 60A panel or so... but I can't tell from the photo. JUst use hte two spaces in the main panel, and if in doubt ask an electrician to take a look at it.

02/20/2006, 01:09 PM	#22
reverendmaynard Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: RI Posts: 1,490	That's the plan! Thanks alot guys. I'll keep you posted on the project. Actually, I might as well throw in another question while I'm at it. I've heard of some new AFCI breakers (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters). Should I use them? Are there any cons? Is there such a thing as an AFCI/GFCI breaker? Is using that type of breaker better or worse than using similar type outlets? Is daisy chaining to use a single GFCI receptacle to control a bunch of recepticles good or bad? Any thoughts on correct use of either of these types of circuit protection is welcomed. Thanks again, Reverand Maynard.

02/20/2006, 02:14 PM	#23
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	NO such thing as GFCI/ACI builtn into one unit. Use GFCI recepticles, not breakrs. They are cheaper and you don't get stuck with a nuisance trip shutting down the whole circuit. AFCI are really of no use for your aquarium and are not very good for anything. The idea is to prevent arcing from starting a fire. They are required in bedroom because some statistic showed that an arcing fire in a bedroom usually results in death due to the fact that arcing fires cause smoldering and noxious fumes long before the fire alarm or heat would wake the sleeping victims. They are prone to nuisance tripping much more so than a GFCI and are really not suitable for any type of complex load. Bean

02/20/2006, 03:48 PM	#25
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	It is just fine to protect multiple outlets with a GFCI. That is what they are designed to do. You simply connect the downstream recepticles to the LOAD side of the GFCI. I however would put a gfci on each critical device, and not wire downstream loads to it. That way if the GFCI on the pump1 trips, pump2 keep cranking. We do this by attaching the HOT to each GFCI input. Neutral is Neutral, all the way to the pole. Code does prohibit shared neutral circuits unles they follow some basic guidlines and this relates to the amount of power that the neutral would be forced to carry between two phases....but alas Neutral is still Neutral. Again this is not what we are doing here. I hope an electriciian will step in and explain this better than me. However I don't know many electricians that would admit that more than 1 GFCI could be used on a single branch circuit. A dozen or so people are going to jump in here and say that you can't add more than one GFCI to a branch circuit, and they will be wrong. It is somewhat pointless to "daisy chain" them, but that is not what we are doing. We are taking a branch circuit and branching it into several individualy protected GFCI recepticles. Don't get me wrong about the arc fault breakrs.... I am sure that they will save some lives. They are now part of the code for bedrooms and other sleeping quarters. Bean