ph/alkalinity issues

[lgerold]

Hey gang!

Perhaps my issue is a non-issue, but I'm confused/concerned.

We set up our 120 gallon reef tank about 2 weeks ago, with lots of live rock, and 4 blue/green damsels, 2 emerald crabs, 4 hermit crabs, 8 turbo snails, heater, etc. The tank is very well lit with pc's. After 1 week, we added three small anemones, a tomato clown, and a small hippo tang to deal with the algae that is beginning to appear. We also added a staghorn coral and a brain coral and some mushrooms a week ago.

Our tap water, deep well, 165 feet deep, has a ph that runs from 7.8 to 8.4. We used tap water to set up the tank, using Coralife Marine Salt. The ph has been stubbornly sitting at 7.8, using THREE different test kits. Calcium has been running 520 mg/liter. KH started at 16! Nitrites had a tiny spike in the first week (0 now), and Nitrates have been running about 15.

I have consulted books, and three different fish store guys (these guys are very experienced), and get somewhat conflicting advice. With the exception of one of the fish store guys, the recommendation has been to get the PH up.

Definitely difficult. The only thing that has happened after adding Kent's Super dkH Buffer (as recommended by the two fish guys) is the obvious raising of the KH to an astounding 31!!!!

Fortunately, the fish and anemones and corals are happy as can be. Appetites good. Active, etc.

What do I do?

I did buy a RO unit yesterday. It's a 3 hour drive to the nearest RO water. Got to get the unit set up today.

Lucy

[Spuds725]

I would definitely stop adding buffer... your ALK is through the roof-- I'm surprised you haven't got a precipitate forming and binding up the calcium...

I would test your calcium if you haven't since adding the buffer as the alkalinity and calcium levels are intertwined...

I can't pretend to tell you whats going on with your water... there might be something in your well water causing all this but stop adding a buffering agent....

Please post your test kit brand names also

[Avi]

I only believe in using RO if your water source isn't good for reef water parameters. But, it seems pretty clear that you made a good move to buy the RO unit. Once it's up and running do some frequent water changes using the RO water (of couse, like Spuds says, without any buffers or other additives.) It should get within proper bounds and you should be fine once that is straightened out.

After things are under control, use this for maintaining things:

For what to shoot for:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

And for how to get and then stay there:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

[lgerold]

Hi! It's Lucy.

The Nitrate and Alkalinity test is by Salifert. The calcium test kit is by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, and the PH test is by Tetra, Nutrafin, and Jungle.

I last ran all the tests this morning. The last adjustment to the water was made about 18 hours ago.

Thanks for the advice. I curse myself for not listening to my gut feeling - to leave well enough alone for a while.

Lucy

[Leandrae]

I also have problems with pH...mine typically runs from 7.7 at night to 7.9 during the day. Adding the store bought alk suppliments doesn't do anything for my pH, and adding baked baking soda does bring it up some, however ir drops back down within an hour.

After all this monkeying around with it, I determined that my problem is poor indoor air quality...if I open windows in the house, the pH actually makes it into the 8.0, 8.1 range. Since I live in Colorado, I can't have the windows open a lot in the winter, so I'm going to see about running a tube from a window to my skimmer air intake and see what happens.

I've also heard that running a kalk drip will help, but I don't know much about that, might do a search.

-Janel

[PatMayo]

lgerold,

IMHO you moved too quickly putting livestock in your tank. Unless you are very experienced it is almost impossible to get your parameters stable in just a two week period as evidenced by your situation. Anemones need stable water parameters and Tangs as well. I would take them back until you get your situation under control.

I would only use Salifert tests. Those others are not very accurate IMO. I have used both and was not satisfied at all.

I would recommend more reading and understanding of this hobby.

Here is a thread with very good links to problems you proabably will encounter.

I would also only use RO/DI water.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=166836

Good Luck,

Regards,

Pat

[mg426]

Are you running a skimmer?? They help to aerate the water bigtime, also rewve lots of gunk from the water. Aerating yopur water will help drive off CO2. also aerate your ro water before adding your salt mix.

[lgerold]

Hi!

I do have a protein skimmer, though very little accumulates in the collection cup so far.

I've been thinking about the air quality in our home, as was previously mentioned. I saw that discussed in one of my books too. Our home air quality is very good, BUT I do have a glass cover on the tank (used to keep 40 little fingers out of the tank.) I will remove the back 2/3 of the glass to see if that doesn't affect the PH!

I really appreciate your comments. Thanks so much. I will continue to keep you posted. And, please continue to send comments.

Fortunately, the creatures are all very happy!

Lucy

[bertoni]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

That article goes into some detail on low pH problems. Buffers are not a good solution for tanks. The pH effect is temporary, lasting only until dissolved CO2 reaches equilibrium with the air, and these buffers add too much alkalinity to allow a constant dosage. A lime drip can help some, but it is a calcium-alkalinity supplement, and so needs to be built into your supplementation plans.

[Avi]

bertoni...while we're on the subject, I had a very handy seawater graph that was interactive so you could see whether you are in a target for acceptable calcium/alkalinity range. I seem to have lost the link to it...If you know which I mean, could you post it? THANKS

[bertoni]

Sorry, I haven't seen that page. Sounds interesting, though.

[Avi]

I'm going to contimue searching and I'll get it to you if I'm lucky enough to find it again.

[Holmie_D_Klown]

Open up the top cover of your tank, run a fan over the surface of your aquarium and face a powerhead upwards to stir up the surface. That should eliminate CO2 enough to raise your pH if this is the culprit.

[lgerold]

Hi!

Holmie, I did that last night, and the PH this morning was 8.0. It will be interesting to check later today.

I got to watch a neat behavior this morning when I fed the fish. I fed them about 1/4 of a cube of frozen food, and the tomato clown grabbed a corner of the cube and fed it to his anenome, which snatched it up in a fraction of a second. I guess these two are very happy!

Any way to drop the alkalinity without causing other issues? Boy, I'm seeing lots of calcium deposits now.

I'll check the PH again in several hours, as well as the calcium level.

Thanks!

Lucy

[Avi]

Originally posted by bertoni
Sorry, I haven't seen that page. Sounds interesting, though.

Well...I've located it. Here it is:

http://www.reefnerds.com/ChemPlot/ChemPlot.html

[PatMayo]

Hey that is pretty slick. Keep it in the green eh?

Regards,

Pat

[lgerold]

Hi! Lucy again...

Darned, ph still 7.8. I must have mis-read the test this morning.
Alkalinity is coming down - from 31 to 25. Calcium is still up, at 520 mg/l. Nitrates dropped to 7 today after tweaking the skimmer last night. Creatures doing well.

Lucy

[bertoni]

It's common for the pH of a tank to drop after the lights go out. Photosynthesis stops, and so CO2 in the water increases. CO2 forms carbonic acid to lower the pH.

[lgerold]

Yesterday's reading was about 6 pm, before lights out at 9.

This morning, PH was actually up a bit, to 7.9. We'll check it out again in a few hours.

Lucy

[lgerold]

Hi!

It's been several days now since I've written in. I HAVEN'T given up. I've just been giving it a few days to settle down a bit since the big KH rise, tweaking the salinity, and carefully monitoring the tank.

You can look back to my last posts, but I'll just re-post the significant data:

It began as a new tank 120 gallons, with PH problems. The parameters, on 2/19, one week after setting up, follow:

PH: 7.8 (using three different tests.)
KH: 16
Calcium: 600 ppm
Nitrates: 20 ppm
Salinity: 1.021 (we've worked on getting that up, but some of
the live stock were used to 1.016.)

On 2/19, the few fish and crustaceans were behaving very well, and seemed healthy, eating and moving about the tank nicely.

We've watched the PH daily. Several "helpful" experts recommended that I add Kent's SuperBuffer to help give the PH boost, which didn't budge the PH, but did frightenlingly boost the KH.

When I last wrote, on 3/1, the parameters were as follows - you may remember that I removed much of the glass top, which we hoped would help boost the PH. No such luck.

So Parameters on 3/1:

PH: 7.8
KH: 25 (coming down from an incredible 31)
Calcium: 520 mg/l
Nitrates: 7 ppm
Salinity: 1.0225

On 3/3, the parameters were:

PH: 7.9
KH: 20
Calcium: 620
Nitrate: 6 ppm
Salinity 1.023

On 3/5, the parameters were:

PH: 7.8 (darn, that wasn't an upward trend)
KH: 19.8
Calcium: 620 mg
Nitrate:6-7
Salinity 1.02375

On 3/7, the parameters were:

PH:7.8
KH: 19.2
Calcium: 600 ppm
Nitrate: 8 ppm
Salinity: 1.02475

(I do weekly add the balanced supplements to the tank, which maybe I should be skipping, but I didn't want the calcium to fall.)

So, I ran the same tests on the water out of the tap, since I hadn't been seeing much more of a reduction in the KH. Results are not really a big surprise. I purchased a RO/DI purifyer about 10 days ago, but since it's too large to fit under the sink, my hubby hasn't decided yet that he really needs to make some sort of a cabinet or shelf for this. The trouble is that it needs to be able to have a line to the sewer system.)

So, I've had to use Tap Water for the top offs, which has the following parameters.

PH: 7.8 (any surprise?)
KH: 12.8 (this one surprised me - with this rate, we will never be able to get the KH to a normal range!)
Calcium: 120 mg/l
Nitrates: 0
Salinity: 0 (no soft water.)

So, that's the run down on the water. As for the condition of the FISH and other fauna:

The fish are acting fantastically. REALLY! They use the whole tank, are eating well, and they enjoy swimming through the cracks and crevices of the rocks. It's a blast to watch the tomato clown feed his anenome, which is also doing well. This anenome is tan colored, has an orange base, and fuschia tips. I assume this is a ritteri?

We've lost only one fish - a yellow watchman goby that developed a red sore on his mouth a day or two after purchase. Since then, I've seen them at other LFS with the same condition.

We did lose an anenome a few days ago. It just never could find a "happy place" in the tank, and would not eat.

The two brain corals swell and subside daily with the light changes. They get perky at feeding time every couple days. We use Cyclop-eez, and everyone loves it, especially the cleaner shrimp.

The mushroom anenomes are reproducing very well. I see them now where there were none before. Some are blue, some brown, some maroon and green.

The mushroom coral is doing well too, with the litte feeler things coming out each time I feed the fish or feed the cyclops-eez. Sometimes the feelers are out just because.

The green star polyps are spreading, now that the algae bloom is not bothering them. The urchin keeps that rock's fuzzy green algae under control. It's incredible to see how much that fella can eat in one night! He never bothers anything else though.

We have a beautiful yellow polyp growing under one of the mushroom anenomes, alongside a grouping of green and orange button polyps.

We've had a sunburst basslet for about 10 days. This is a gorgeous fish and I didn't see it for about 3 days. Now, it cruises through the tank, though it's not as bold yet as the other fish. It's color has come back completely. It is incredible.

I've discovered a larger feather duster growing upside down on the tomato clown's rock. I know that I purchased one, but during one of the inevitable early tank rearrangings, it disappeared. It must have broken in one of the rocks. I'll have to move it to a more suitable place.

The rock urchin, emerald crabs, strawberry crab, cleaner shrimps, turbo snails, and sand sifting sea star are active, clean, and good eaters.

How in the devil can I get that PH up without affecting the KH?

We're also working on designing a refugium. It sure would be nice to move the heaters out. Perhaps the skimmer too, though that may be too large to move (it's a hang on back version.)

The refugium would have to go beside the 120 gallon tank, as there's absolutely no room for it beneath the tank. And, I'm too blasted short to maintain it above the tank. And, the tank is not drilled. Having the refugium MAY help with the PH, but I bet it doesn't have much of an effect. It would be nice to oxygenate the water better, and grow some beneficial micro critters. It would also be alot easier for me to manage the carbon filter, because I have the carbon in an e-heim filter (nothing but carbon) beneath the tank, with barely enough room to upkeep (takes a long time, hurts me too much, and I spill too much water.)

Let me know your thoughts.

Lucy

[bertoni]

If the alkalinity is okay, and you aren't dosing anything into the tank that would lower pH, the problem is almost certainly CO2. More aeration or better quality air might help.

All in all, though, I'd buy an RO-DI unit or find some source for better water. That tapwater doesn't measure very well.