Alright let the questions commence!

Aquareefer776 · 03/06/2006, 07:12 PM

Heya folks!

I am in the process of getting my tank which will be my first ever SW tank. Yay! I have been lurking around and reading online and in books, the local Barnes and Noble gets a little agitated when you sit there all day read an entire book, take notes, and don't buy the book just a little side note Anywho! Through out my reading and research I have decided to start with a FOWLR tank which once its established will most likely turn into a full blown reef. The tank I am buying is 112 gal. per the little calculator thing here on the site it measures: 5'Lx24"Hx18"W. Now for the questions I know that a FOWLR is a tank with fish, LR, and substrate of some sort. But don't some of the LR have corals on it or will they all die in shipment or on the way home from the LFS? If so wouldn't that really be making it a reef tank? Well minus things like sponges, Anemones, and the like? Or Am I way off base? Also if memory serves me right which probably won't happen, isn't the general rule of thumb for stocking the tank 1" of fish per gallon? But does that include things like snails, shrimp etc.? Ok that's that part..lol a few more comments and questions. Sorry folks. But with my set up I am going to go with a 4-5" Live sand bed and around 100lbs of live rock. I also have a 10 gal that I want to set up as my Sump/refug, which hopefully be big enough to house all my equipment. If worse comes to worse I can use a standalone Skimmer instead of a submersible. As for size of pumps and skimmer I'm not sure I can't recall the rate of flow or anything I think I remember reading 10x tank capacity. So for me that would mean about 1200gph right? With the Tank and sump/refug. Sorry for long post just want to start getting the essentials down before I have to start setting up. As for lighting I haven't really thought too much into as I want clarification on the "fish limit" question. I also haven't decided if I want to have corals in the tank yet or not, but knowing me I probably will! lol Ok thanks for your patience in reading my blabbing!

Tommy

Swanwillow · 03/06/2006, 07:19 PM

yes there will be things living on the LR: but its not considered a reef unless you physically add corals and the like to it... if its a hitch-hiker, its still 'just' a fowlr

that stocking is for fresh water: you'll have to decide on a list of fish, and ask us about it... in all seriousness. IE: in a 120, one tang, one dwarf angel, 2 clownfish, and a few gobies would be decent, but I'm conservative!!! If I had a 120, I'd have a school of flasher wrasses (think, 6) and a bunch of different types of gobies. no, it does not take into account the snails and stuff. You have to take into account the natural patterns of the fish, etc. etc. Anthias need more room than, clownfish... clownfish sit in one spot, only taking up about the size of a 10-20 gallon tank, while anthias will use the WHOLE water column, and still need more...

any light would be ok for fish, enough to see by!!! for corals, more is usually better.

drunktank · 03/06/2006, 07:22 PM

okay i'll try to answer wut i can

welcome to ReefCentral and to the hobby- Most LR will not have corals on it ESP if u buy from a LFS. My suggest is getting 75% base rock (which is dead live rock) and 25% live rock to seed ur tank. No point is spending 400 dollars on rock! Secondly, 1'' of fish before gallon is just a ''general'' rule- depends mostly on the adult size of the fish. you can follow it or not- Snails and such could be included but first you should get ur tank filled w/ saltwater,rock and sand. let it cycle and add ur clean up crew- THEN worry about ur fish. 10g tank isn't sufficiant for a sump/fuge for such a large tank, QT tank most def. Try looking for a 20-30gallon tank. You wanna make sure theres plenty of room incase of back flow in power outage. And 10g wont be big enough for all the equipment. As for the equpment - some ppl like certain brands over others. I suggest searching previous posts on skimmers and pumps. As for lighting- depends on wut ur keeping. Basic lighting is needed for Fish Only, probably a good idea to start there and get the hang of it. Then upgrade to Power Compacts/MH etc for corals

hope that gets u off in the right direction.

Capt_Cully · 03/06/2006, 07:26 PM

If you're starting w/ 112g tank and 100lbs of rock you're well on your way to staring a reef tank.

snails, shrimp, etc= inverts. don't include them in your 1" per gallon equation, which is more a guide line anyway, and not so accurate in my estimation w/ the advent of skimmers and such (i could be wrong, but this is my experience).

Live rock has die off on it esp if you start w/ uncured LR that is the sponges and bacteria etc. there is coralline algae which dies off as well.

As far as flow rate, you can also include the powerheads in the tank as flow per hour.

I read and bought stuff continuously for over a year before starting, but i learned more in the first month i was up and running than i did in all that other time. Alot of help and alot of trial and error.

take everything I and others say with a grain of salt and you'll find your way. good luck.

EdKruzel · 03/06/2006, 07:30 PM

Tommy,
1'' of fish per gallon is a myth; you could probably put 10, 1'' fish in a ten gallon, but would you place a single 10'' fish in that same tank?
No...

When choosing livestock it is very important to research how much room the individual species requires for its territory and what other inhabitants are compatible.

In a tank of roughly the size you mention (we'll say 100 gallons) there is room for a fish as large as a Volitan Lion because they do not require vast areas for swimming.
You would still have plenty of room for two Percula Clownfish, small wrasse species, gramma and three or four small species.
Now the problem is that these fish are not all compatible. The lionfish is not aggressive, however is a predator and will eat anything moving that will fit in its mouth.

Compatibility amongst fish and motile inverts are not the only concern; should you later wish to add corals then you wouldn't initially choose fish that will have to be removed when adding the new livestock.

Planning + Research + More Planning + Patience = Success

Good Luck,
Ed

Aquareefer776 · 03/06/2006, 07:54 PM

Hey folks!
Thanks for all the input! I'll try and go down the line I do have what equates to be a 45 gal tanks that i suppose i can use as my sump/refug. However i do have to see if it will fit under my new stand and all first. Will the 10 gal work as a qt or is it too small as well? As for fish, well i got a long list of what i would like and i used a compatibility chart from liveaquaria.com according to their descriptions of the fish online none really gave me an "area of territory" just what they can grow up to approx. I will put a list of what ones i liked the most all of them according to the chart are compatible with each other, reef friendly and all are peaceful to semi-aggressive (guess which ones those are. lol) as well.

Royal Gramma Basslet*
Kaudern Cardinal
Limbaughi Chromis*
Ocellaris clown (down the road when i get Anemones set up)
Blue Sapphire damsel
Green Mandarin (another down the road selection)*
Firefish
Neon Goby*
Yellowhead Jawfish*
Scott's Fairy Wrasse*
Filamented Wrasse*
6 line Wrasse*

I put stars next to the ones i REALLY like..lol any info on these fish would be great like how many i can have in my tank of each or wohat would be the best mix.

Thanks,
Tommy

drunktank · 03/06/2006, 08:17 PM

you could easily have one of each and be fine, except w/o proper care and food (pods) a mandarin wont survive long

Aquareefer776 · 03/06/2006, 08:28 PM

So i could get all the fish on my list like one of each? would i be able to pair them up? minus the ones that like to attack their own species of course. And How would the clowns be w/o a anemone in the tank? Thanks

Tommy

Swanwillow · 03/07/2006, 08:44 AM

I have a yellow-headed jawfish=they are TOTALY COOL!!!! with your list, I'd also look into midas blennies... I have one of those also

ok, so I copy-pasted, and did numbers/comments...

Royal Gramma Basslet* one-neat little fish!!!
Kaudern Cardinal can be kept in groups, odd numbers... males will fight though
Limbaughi Chromis* schooling fish if there are big fish in the tank (for protection) won't really school if they aren't afraid.
Ocellaris clown (down the road when i get Anemones set up) they don't NEED anemones to live, and nowadays the tank raised ones are a hit and miss on even taking to an anemone.
Blue Sapphire damsel downright mean... I'd never put a damsel in my tank-and clowns and chromis are also types of damsles, just in disguise (or pretty pajamas in the case of clownfish) he'll end up harassing the rest of your fish
Green Mandarin (another down the road selection)* eats pods, may not be a good choice with the other pod eaters on your list, since they will out compete for food, and take other foods, while this guy only eats live foods
Firefish can be kept in groups-3
Neon Goby* another good fish, you can get pairs and they have bred in captivity
Yellowhead Jawfish* can get pairs sometimes... very cool!!! needs a sand bed of at least 3 inches, more is better
Scott's Fairy Wrasse* I'll group the fairy and flasher (filamented) wrasses together, since I had the filamented. they jump, and are great in groups... the most dominate female will turn into a male... but they JUMP A LOT!!! you need to have your tank covered for them, and my clownfish actually chased them out of my tank THROUGH egg-crate (the light diffuser crate you can buy at home depot)
Filamented Wrasse*
6 line Wrasse* stays small, good as a single.

so, I love your list: most of your fish stay very small, and you can have a schooling community tank with this list!!! If I was picking and choosing from this list, heck, I'd take your list... minus the clowns, chromis, and damsels... just have 6 filamented wrasse, 3 firefish, neon goby pair, and a trio of cardinals...

EdKruzel · 03/07/2006, 10:01 AM

Some problems with the list:

Firefish - Very territorial amongst their own species and will eventually kill even its mate.

Sixline or any small species wrasse (4 line, 8 line) will harass small fish such as gobies and jawfish as well as flasher or fairy wrasse.

Fish jump as a defense against predators, and many things in a tank can be perceived as such:
Flicker of a light coming on or going off.
Stray voltage.
Sudden movement outside the tank (before the fish acclimate to the traffic).
Crabs and some shrimps or harassing fish.

The majority of the list is good and just needs a little tweaking.

Ed

03/06/2006, 07:12 PM	#1
Aquareefer776 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stockton Posts: 48	Alright let the questions commence! Heya folks! I am in the process of getting my tank which will be my first ever SW tank. Yay! I have been lurking around and reading online and in books, the local Barnes and Noble gets a little agitated when you sit there all day read an entire book, take notes, and don't buy the book just a little side note Anywho! Through out my reading and research I have decided to start with a FOWLR tank which once its established will most likely turn into a full blown reef. The tank I am buying is 112 gal. per the little calculator thing here on the site it measures: 5'Lx24"Hx18"W. Now for the questions I know that a FOWLR is a tank with fish, LR, and substrate of some sort. But don't some of the LR have corals on it or will they all die in shipment or on the way home from the LFS? If so wouldn't that really be making it a reef tank? Well minus things like sponges, Anemones, and the like? Or Am I way off base? Also if memory serves me right which probably won't happen, isn't the general rule of thumb for stocking the tank 1" of fish per gallon? But does that include things like snails, shrimp etc.? Ok that's that part..lol a few more comments and questions. Sorry folks. But with my set up I am going to go with a 4-5" Live sand bed and around 100lbs of live rock. I also have a 10 gal that I want to set up as my Sump/refug, which hopefully be big enough to house all my equipment. If worse comes to worse I can use a standalone Skimmer instead of a submersible. As for size of pumps and skimmer I'm not sure I can't recall the rate of flow or anything I think I remember reading 10x tank capacity. So for me that would mean about 1200gph right? With the Tank and sump/refug. Sorry for long post just want to start getting the essentials down before I have to start setting up. As for lighting I haven't really thought too much into as I want clarification on the "fish limit" question. I also haven't decided if I want to have corals in the tank yet or not, but knowing me I probably will! lol Ok thanks for your patience in reading my blabbing! Tommy

03/06/2006, 07:19 PM	#2
Swanwillow goby girl Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bemidji MN Posts: 2,025	yes there will be things living on the LR: but its not considered a reef unless you physically add corals and the like to it... if its a hitch-hiker, its still 'just' a fowlr that stocking is for fresh water: you'll have to decide on a list of fish, and ask us about it... in all seriousness. IE: in a 120, one tang, one dwarf angel, 2 clownfish, and a few gobies would be decent, but I'm conservative!!! If I had a 120, I'd have a school of flasher wrasses (think, 6) and a bunch of different types of gobies. no, it does not take into account the snails and stuff. You have to take into account the natural patterns of the fish, etc. etc. Anthias need more room than, clownfish... clownfish sit in one spot, only taking up about the size of a 10-20 gallon tank, while anthias will use the WHOLE water column, and still need more... any light would be ok for fish, enough to see by!!! for corals, more is usually better. __________________ my advice:walk away. do nothing. til tomorrow. if its still alive, it will hopefully be fine. If you do not see it, do not try to find it. it may be hiding. just LEAVE it alone Current Tank Info: starting over! 125 gallon. Soon to be home to Blackfoot clowns, A. nigripes

03/06/2006, 07:26 PM	#4
Capt_Cully Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 13,574	If you're starting w/ 112g tank and 100lbs of rock you're well on your way to staring a reef tank. snails, shrimp, etc= inverts. don't include them in your 1" per gallon equation, which is more a guide line anyway, and not so accurate in my estimation w/ the advent of skimmers and such (i could be wrong, but this is my experience). Live rock has die off on it esp if you start w/ uncured LR that is the sponges and bacteria etc. there is coralline algae which dies off as well. As far as flow rate, you can also include the powerheads in the tank as flow per hour. I read and bought stuff continuously for over a year before starting, but i learned more in the first month i was up and running than i did in all that other time. Alot of help and alot of trial and error. take everything I and others say with a grain of salt and you'll find your way. good luck. __________________ People say cars are a bad investment. Those people don't have reef tanks. Current Tank Info: 120, Radion Gen 2 Pro x 2

03/06/2006, 07:30 PM	#5
EdKruzel Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 7,384	Tommy, 1'' of fish per gallon is a myth; you could probably put 10, 1'' fish in a ten gallon, but would you place a single 10'' fish in that same tank? No... When choosing livestock it is very important to research how much room the individual species requires for its territory and what other inhabitants are compatible. In a tank of roughly the size you mention (we'll say 100 gallons) there is room for a fish as large as a Volitan Lion because they do not require vast areas for swimming. You would still have plenty of room for two Percula Clownfish, small wrasse species, gramma and three or four small species. Now the problem is that these fish are not all compatible. The lionfish is not aggressive, however is a predator and will eat anything moving that will fit in its mouth. Compatibility amongst fish and motile inverts are not the only concern; should you later wish to add corals then you wouldn't initially choose fish that will have to be removed when adding the new livestock. Planning + Research + More Planning + Patience = Success Good Luck, Ed __________________ When you find yourself in "Deep Water" it's best to keep your mouth shut! Current Tank Info: 65RR Cube Mixed Reef

03/06/2006, 08:28 PM	#8
Aquareefer776 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stockton Posts: 48	So i could get all the fish on my list like one of each? would i be able to pair them up? minus the ones that like to attack their own species of course. And How would the clowns be w/o a anemone in the tank? Thanks Tommy __________________ Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then after that, who cares? Your a mile away and have his shoes.

03/06/2006, 07:22 PM	#3
drunktank Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 404	okay i'll try to answer wut i can welcome to ReefCentral and to the hobby- Most LR will not have corals on it ESP if u buy from a LFS. My suggest is getting 75% base rock (which is dead live rock) and 25% live rock to seed ur tank. No point is spending 400 dollars on rock! Secondly, 1'' of fish before gallon is just a ''general'' rule- depends mostly on the adult size of the fish. you can follow it or not- Snails and such could be included but first you should get ur tank filled w/ saltwater,rock and sand. let it cycle and add ur clean up crew- THEN worry about ur fish. 10g tank isn't sufficiant for a sump/fuge for such a large tank, QT tank most def. Try looking for a 20-30gallon tank. You wanna make sure theres plenty of room incase of back flow in power outage. And 10g wont be big enough for all the equipment. As for the equpment - some ppl like certain brands over others. I suggest searching previous posts on skimmers and pumps. As for lighting- depends on wut ur keeping. Basic lighting is needed for Fish Only, probably a good idea to start there and get the hang of it. Then upgrade to Power Compacts/MH etc for corals hope that gets u off in the right direction.

03/06/2006, 07:54 PM	#6
Aquareefer776 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stockton Posts: 48	Hey folks! Thanks for all the input! I'll try and go down the line I do have what equates to be a 45 gal tanks that i suppose i can use as my sump/refug. However i do have to see if it will fit under my new stand and all first. Will the 10 gal work as a qt or is it too small as well? As for fish, well i got a long list of what i would like and i used a compatibility chart from liveaquaria.com according to their descriptions of the fish online none really gave me an "area of territory" just what they can grow up to approx. I will put a list of what ones i liked the most all of them according to the chart are compatible with each other, reef friendly and all are peaceful to semi-aggressive (guess which ones those are. lol) as well. Royal Gramma Basslet* Kaudern Cardinal Limbaughi Chromis* Ocellaris clown (down the road when i get Anemones set up) Blue Sapphire damsel Green Mandarin (another down the road selection)* Firefish Neon Goby* Yellowhead Jawfish* Scott's Fairy Wrasse* Filamented Wrasse* 6 line Wrasse* I put stars next to the ones i REALLY like..lol any info on these fish would be great like how many i can have in my tank of each or wohat would be the best mix. Thanks, Tommy

03/06/2006, 08:17 PM	#7
drunktank Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 404	you could easily have one of each and be fine, except w/o proper care and food (pods) a mandarin wont survive long

03/07/2006, 08:44 AM	#9
Swanwillow goby girl Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bemidji MN Posts: 2,025	I have a yellow-headed jawfish=they are TOTALY COOL!!!! with your list, I'd also look into midas blennies... I have one of those also ok, so I copy-pasted, and did numbers/comments... Royal Gramma Basslet* one-neat little fish!!! Kaudern Cardinal can be kept in groups, odd numbers... males will fight though Limbaughi Chromis* schooling fish if there are big fish in the tank (for protection) won't really school if they aren't afraid. Ocellaris clown (down the road when i get Anemones set up) they don't NEED anemones to live, and nowadays the tank raised ones are a hit and miss on even taking to an anemone. Blue Sapphire damsel downright mean... I'd never put a damsel in my tank-and clowns and chromis are also types of damsles, just in disguise (or pretty pajamas in the case of clownfish) he'll end up harassing the rest of your fish Green Mandarin (another down the road selection)* eats pods, may not be a good choice with the other pod eaters on your list, since they will out compete for food, and take other foods, while this guy only eats live foods Firefish can be kept in groups-3 Neon Goby* another good fish, you can get pairs and they have bred in captivity Yellowhead Jawfish* can get pairs sometimes... very cool!!! needs a sand bed of at least 3 inches, more is better Scott's Fairy Wrasse* I'll group the fairy and flasher (filamented) wrasses together, since I had the filamented. they jump, and are great in groups... the most dominate female will turn into a male... but they JUMP A LOT!!! you need to have your tank covered for them, and my clownfish actually chased them out of my tank THROUGH egg-crate (the light diffuser crate you can buy at home depot) Filamented Wrasse* 6 line Wrasse* stays small, good as a single. so, I love your list: most of your fish stay very small, and you can have a schooling community tank with this list!!! If I was picking and choosing from this list, heck, I'd take your list... minus the clowns, chromis, and damsels... just have 6 filamented wrasse, 3 firefish, neon goby pair, and a trio of cardinals... __________________ my advice:walk away. do nothing. til tomorrow. if its still alive, it will hopefully be fine. If you do not see it, do not try to find it. it may be hiding. just LEAVE it alone Current Tank Info: starting over! 125 gallon. Soon to be home to Blackfoot clowns, A. nigripes

03/07/2006, 10:01 AM	#10
EdKruzel Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 7,384	Some problems with the list: Firefish - Very territorial amongst their own species and will eventually kill even its mate. Sixline or any small species wrasse (4 line, 8 line) will harass small fish such as gobies and jawfish as well as flasher or fairy wrasse. Fish jump as a defense against predators, and many things in a tank can be perceived as such: Flicker of a light coming on or going off. Stray voltage. Sudden movement outside the tank (before the fish acclimate to the traffic). Crabs and some shrimps or harassing fish. The majority of the list is good and just needs a little tweaking. Ed __________________ When you find yourself in "Deep Water" it's best to keep your mouth shut! Current Tank Info: 65RR Cube Mixed Reef