Head and lateral line disease

Gools · 03/10/2006, 05:05 PM

Looking for info on head and lateral line disease. Anyone have any links, or experience with this. I will be getting a purple tang, with the start of this disease. I could pass on it, but I'm going to give this guy a fighting chance, in my 180g. Just looking for suggestions on how to help the little guy out. Thanks

DMK · 03/10/2006, 05:12 PM

if we could use the search button, we could look back, BUT... somethings to pay attention to are:
1) varied diet w/ alot of algae, either in tank or nori sheets
2) ground probe
3) low stress
4) good water quality
5) lots of free swimming room
another thing that can cause LLD is if fish was cuaght using cyanide. i've had 3 tangs, all died, eventually succumbing to this disease.

trippyl · 03/10/2006, 05:13 PM

note that even if you do all the things mentioned above (which are the correct solution), in some cases, the scars from hlle will still remain.

Gools · 03/10/2006, 05:14 PM

is it a high mortality disease? Or with the proper requirments like DMK mentioned can they still live?

trippyl · 03/10/2006, 05:44 PM

fish can live a real long time with active hlle, but it's basically a disease of malnutrition or poor living conditions, so it's like watching someone slowly starve to death.

Once you provide a proper environment to an HLLE affected fish, the chances of them dying from HLLE is extremely slim. They may always show the scars of HLLE, but they can lead normal lives.

detz15 · 03/10/2006, 06:35 PM

I had a sailfin that had the disease almost from head to tail on one side. The LFS was giving him away cheap. I fed him Formula 2 flake pretty regularly for a couple of months and it disapeared. I fed this in addition to nightly brine shrimp or frozen algae squares. After a while the erosion disapeared and he is a beautiful fish now.

I don't think they die from it very often as long as you start providing the correct nutrition.

JRR · 03/10/2006, 07:53 PM

I would like to share some thoughts.

I have 2 yellow tangs and 1 regal and 3 purple tangs along with 1 Majestic Angel, 1 Clown Trigger numerous Chromis and dottybacks. Their diet has maintained steady for the past 4 years and they have all grown very large never having any sign of the disease until the 5th year. The Regal has gone from about the size of a nickel all the way up to 7". Over the past year the tangs have all developed hole in the head.

The tank has been grounded and also has been checked by 2 electricians. The diet remains the same along with many new supplements such as fresh algaes. I've also introduced Kent Zoe vitamins and Kent trace elements on a regular schedule along with soaking their food in Selcon. The fish continue to get worse.

All water parameters fall within the acceptable limits. The make up water is city water and then purified by a double RO/4 position DI filter. The tank receives regular water changes to keep all parameters in check at the optimum levels. I do have a buildup of PO4 but I use several PO4 reducers to keep this down. It usually ranges up as high as .5ppm's but normally around .25ppm's.

I've literally contacted Sea World, Marineland along with many other authorities only to find out really nothing. Seems people have there theories such as water quality, grounding probes, vitamins, along with diet these items may all effect the condition I don't believe they are completly responsible.

My tanks has a DSB that maybe failing over the last year. I believe that the DSB being all plugged up maybe resulting in a chemical that is leaching out of the DSB which is like poision. I also feel that CO2 buildup in the system at night maybe one of the main factors for hole in the head. It seems that tangs out of all the fish maybe very CO2 sensitive.

This problem has not effected my Majestic Angel, Clown Trigger or any Chromis or dottybacks. It only seems to effect the tangs.

Please anyone share their knowledge on CO2 buildup causing HLLE?

nemofish2217 · 03/10/2006, 08:05 PM

i had a purple tang that had started to get the disease.... i pumped him full of nori soaked in garlic and selecon, as well as putting a grounding probe into the tank....went away after a month or so....

p.s. this was in my 90, not the 45 in my signature...

smiller · 03/11/2006, 04:36 AM

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php

sreefs · 03/12/2006, 07:05 PM

frozen brocilla flowerets works very well to treat and heal hulled

JRR · 03/13/2006, 07:19 AM

smiller,

I believe the article you sighted is very interesting. It names all the problems that have been found to possibly cause these problems but it never nails down what really is responsible other than captivity itself however why do most fish not develop the problem. It seems that it mainly impacts tangs and angelfish. I find it interesting because in my personal system I have a Majestic Angel that is 7" with no problems along with chromis, dottybacks and others. It only seems to effect the tangs. I've been told that tangs are very susceptible to CO2 buildup.

I think much more testing needs to be done regarding oxygen levels and CO2 along with chemicals produced in the typical aquarium that are not part of the normal 5 or 6 tests. The article feels that everyone should work to have the best conditions. I think everyone will agree with that fact.

DMK · 03/13/2006, 08:10 AM

they can live a long time w/ LLD but at times they can get so crappy looking u (I) might wish they would just croak. i've had 3 tangs, a PT, chevron and a kole, all different times, but from same store, that all eventually got it bad and disappeared. i'm trying for A 4TH tang soon, from a different supplier, and if it happens again, i'm done w/ tangs.

JRR · 03/13/2006, 08:47 AM

DMK,

This is an interesting approach but my tangs have come from different suppliers and even been directly shipped in from various places.

The problem is something in your aquarium that is unique. Many systems never have these problems.

We need more studies done on this topic.

RichConley · 03/13/2006, 12:36 PM

I really dont think HLLE is a disease, I think its more of a symptom. Theres seems to be so many things that can cause it, but dont always.

It seems to me, that maybe its just a symptom of poor health. These cells are high need receptor cells, that probably take a ton of resources to maintain. (the LL is used to sence vibration/ electric activity in the water)

Maybe with the fact that tangs are generally herbivores, they dont need to sence prey with their LL, and the fact that it takes so much energy to maintain the LL, its just the first area that gets run down when they start getting sick.

JMO

cameronsloan · 03/13/2006, 02:10 PM

I don't know what to make of this but thought I would throw this out there to see what you all think:

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/hlle.html

gobygoby · 03/13/2006, 02:13 PM

A long time ago I got a purple tank with HLL as well.. I did some research and found that spirulina is supposed to reverse it. well I fed it strictly sprulina for 6 months and it went away.

It was just spirulina flake by one the major manufacturers. IE: omega one, formula one, JBJ...I cant remember, but it worked.!

hth
Goby

DMK · 03/13/2006, 03:03 PM

i think a main factor w/ tangs getting LLD, is if there's not enough feww swimming space. i had a ton of LR when i had the tangs and a huge acro at bottom blocking entrance to cave which led to other side. i removed the acro and about 25lb LR. definately more open. we'll see what happens. all other aspects were on point( diet, ground probe, etc).

DamienHanna · 03/13/2006, 08:24 PM

My opinion is based purely on experience and a lot of reading but I have seen my purple tange alomost completely reverse a severe case of HLLE is less than six months. My opinion is that its closely related to stress and here's why I beleive that.

MY PT was doing fine in my 125G FOWLR for over a year when she developed a mild case if ich. I removed her for treatment and placed her in a 40G treatment tank with some live rock and a sand bottom (used hyposalinity to treat ich). In less than 3 weeks she started showing some serious lesions around the head which spread to her lateral line. In the meantime I was setting up a new 240G reef where I was going to move her. She hid a lot in the treatment tank but ate well although she didn't swim around much; she just kinda hung out. The HLLE got worse; I fed her nori soaked in selcon, mysis, Formula 2 and spiraluna flakes all to no avail. Finally after 6 weeks in hypo I moved her to the new reef where she would be the "boss". Difference in behavior was amazing; swan around actively all day, defended her turf agressively and ate like a pig. Within a month I noticed the lateral line scarring was fading and within 3 months it was gone. Her head lesions cleared up over the next few months too and now she looks good as new (almost; she has lot most of her "stripes" and the dark spots are a lot harder to see but this is normally for a captive PT I think).

So my 2c isL

1. This is not a killer disease; the lesions are sterile and do not affect the fish's health in any way. Its also not contagious.

2. It's absolutely reversible with the correct environmental condition as many have stated her. With my case I think it was a combination of more space, better water quality and a most "natural" reef setting to live in. I am less inclined to attibute the healing to diet.

3. Low stress levels; my PT is a plump 6 incher and rules the roost on my reef. I am convinved that the lack of serious threats from other agressive species helps a lot with her overall health. I also have a smaller Acanthurus Lineatus in the tank with her and I've had him for two years without any issues. He bickers with the PT now and then but they each manage their own space pretty harmoniously (I have another theory about how to keep the very difficlut A. Lineatus species happy but that's another story!).

Once again there is nothing scientific about my analysis and I don't claim to know anything more about HLLE than anyone else here but I do know what worked for me. YMMV but god luck... :-)

--Damien

Gools · 07/23/2006, 08:00 PM

Just thought I'd give an update on what happened.

Got the Purple tang on March 14/06

Picture taken today, 4 months later. All happy and healthy

Ursus · 07/24/2006, 12:27 AM

It seems to me that just about every issue with tangs comes back to stress. No matter what you do, if a tang is stressed there seems to be very adverse affects other than immediate death.

smiller · 07/24/2006, 03:08 AM

JRR · 07/24/2006, 12:39 PM

Hi Gools,

What do you think caused this success? I really would like to know. How do you feed what are your Phophates, Nitrates? Do you have a deep sand bed if so for how long? Do you use certain trace elements/ vitamins? What brand of salt? Are there other tangs in your aquarium?

Thanks,

Jim

Gools · 07/24/2006, 02:49 PM

Hi Jim
I got the Purple from an online store, before he sold it to me he told me he had HLLE, so I got a cheap price on him. I figure it was just the stress from being caught and handled. I have an established tank, it's just over 4yrs old, with a 2" sand bed, give or take. No ideas what my phosphates or nitrates are, don't bother testing for that, although looking into phosphates, to see if it has any effect on my acros, but that's another subject. I use Tropic Marin salt, and only do a 30g water change every 4-6months, on my 180. I did soak all my frozen food, mostly mysis, in Kent Zoe, and Kent garlic. Also feed flake foods, which already had garlic additives added to it. Other then that I don't dose anything else to my tank. There are 2 other tangs in the tank, a mimic, and yellow. The yellow, and purple fought good for a day or 2 then that was it, the yellow taking the worst, and being a tad bit smaller. But now they are great. all my fish get along, and have no stresses. I think with a good mature/healthy tank, and good nutrition, stress free environment, this is a cureable disease.

JRR · 07/24/2006, 04:03 PM

I'm glad to know that it is a curable disease. That is great. What type of lighting do you have and one temp do you keep the water? I'm just trying to figure out what your doing? I have three purple tangs in a 500 gallon system along with a regal tang and the regal and one purple have the problem but they do not fight and all seem to get along. I would like to correct the two fish and try to prevent the others from having the problem.

Thanks,

Jim

Gools · 07/30/2006, 08:04 AM

I have 2 400w, and 2 175w, with 4 54w T5 as supplimental lighting. My Temp ranges from 78- 83, I need a chiller. On a 500g, what kind of skimmer are you running? Water quality, is huge.

03/10/2006, 05:05 PM	#1
Gools Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Vernon, BC Posts: 795	Head and lateral line disease Looking for info on head and lateral line disease. Anyone have any links, or experience with this. I will be getting a purple tang, with the start of this disease. I could pass on it, but I'm going to give this guy a fighting chance, in my 180g. Just looking for suggestions on how to help the little guy out. Thanks

03/11/2006, 04:36 AM	#9
smiller Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 9,207	http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php __________________ Steve It's good to learn from your experiences. It's better to learn from other's experiences.

03/12/2006, 07:05 PM	#10
sreefs Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Pa Posts: 754	frozen brocilla flowerets works very well to treat and heal hulled __________________ Pat Current Tank Info: 225 Coast To Coast SPS reef. T5 lighting

03/13/2006, 12:36 PM	#14
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	I really dont think HLLE is a disease, I think its more of a symptom. Theres seems to be so many things that can cause it, but dont always. It seems to me, that maybe its just a symptom of poor health. These cells are high need receptor cells, that probably take a ton of resources to maintain. (the LL is used to sence vibration/ electric activity in the water) Maybe with the fact that tangs are generally herbivores, they dont need to sence prey with their LL, and the fact that it takes so much energy to maintain the LL, its just the first area that gets run down when they start getting sick. JMO __________________ NO TANKS!!!

03/13/2006, 02:13 PM	#16
gobygoby Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indianapolis - Indiana Posts: 1,340	A long time ago I got a purple tank with HLL as well.. I did some research and found that spirulina is supposed to reverse it. well I fed it strictly sprulina for 6 months and it went away. It was just spirulina flake by one the major manufacturers. IE: omega one, formula one, JBJ...I cant remember, but it worked.! hth Goby __________________ Goby Current Tank Info: 1/8 gal. super-mega nano

03/10/2006, 05:12 PM	#2
DMK Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: central NJ Posts: 2,494	if we could use the search button, we could look back, BUT... somethings to pay attention to are: 1) varied diet w/ alot of algae, either in tank or nori sheets 2) ground probe 3) low stress 4) good water quality 5) lots of free swimming room another thing that can cause LLD is if fish was cuaght using cyanide. i've had 3 tangs, all died, eventually succumbing to this disease.

03/10/2006, 05:13 PM	#3
trippyl Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Here Posts: 1,106	note that even if you do all the things mentioned above (which are the correct solution), in some cases, the scars from hlle will still remain.

03/10/2006, 05:14 PM	#4
Gools Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Vernon, BC Posts: 795	is it a high mortality disease? Or with the proper requirments like DMK mentioned can they still live?

03/10/2006, 05:44 PM	#5
trippyl Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Here Posts: 1,106	fish can live a real long time with active hlle, but it's basically a disease of malnutrition or poor living conditions, so it's like watching someone slowly starve to death. Once you provide a proper environment to an HLLE affected fish, the chances of them dying from HLLE is extremely slim. They may always show the scars of HLLE, but they can lead normal lives.

03/10/2006, 06:35 PM	#6
detz15 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 104	I had a sailfin that had the disease almost from head to tail on one side. The LFS was giving him away cheap. I fed him Formula 2 flake pretty regularly for a couple of months and it disapeared. I fed this in addition to nightly brine shrimp or frozen algae squares. After a while the erosion disapeared and he is a beautiful fish now. I don't think they die from it very often as long as you start providing the correct nutrition.

03/10/2006, 07:53 PM	#7
JRR Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 166	I would like to share some thoughts. I have 2 yellow tangs and 1 regal and 3 purple tangs along with 1 Majestic Angel, 1 Clown Trigger numerous Chromis and dottybacks. Their diet has maintained steady for the past 4 years and they have all grown very large never having any sign of the disease until the 5th year. The Regal has gone from about the size of a nickel all the way up to 7". Over the past year the tangs have all developed hole in the head. The tank has been grounded and also has been checked by 2 electricians. The diet remains the same along with many new supplements such as fresh algaes. I've also introduced Kent Zoe vitamins and Kent trace elements on a regular schedule along with soaking their food in Selcon. The fish continue to get worse. All water parameters fall within the acceptable limits. The make up water is city water and then purified by a double RO/4 position DI filter. The tank receives regular water changes to keep all parameters in check at the optimum levels. I do have a buildup of PO4 but I use several PO4 reducers to keep this down. It usually ranges up as high as .5ppm's but normally around .25ppm's. I've literally contacted Sea World, Marineland along with many other authorities only to find out really nothing. Seems people have there theories such as water quality, grounding probes, vitamins, along with diet these items may all effect the condition I don't believe they are completly responsible. My tanks has a DSB that maybe failing over the last year. I believe that the DSB being all plugged up maybe resulting in a chemical that is leaching out of the DSB which is like poision. I also feel that CO2 buildup in the system at night maybe one of the main factors for hole in the head. It seems that tangs out of all the fish maybe very CO2 sensitive. This problem has not effected my Majestic Angel, Clown Trigger or any Chromis or dottybacks. It only seems to effect the tangs. Please anyone share their knowledge on CO2 buildup causing HLLE?

03/10/2006, 08:05 PM	#8
nemofish2217 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,606	i had a purple tang that had started to get the disease.... i pumped him full of nori soaked in garlic and selecon, as well as putting a grounding probe into the tank....went away after a month or so.... p.s. this was in my 90, not the 45 in my signature...

03/13/2006, 07:19 AM	#11
JRR Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 166	smiller, I believe the article you sighted is very interesting. It names all the problems that have been found to possibly cause these problems but it never nails down what really is responsible other than captivity itself however why do most fish not develop the problem. It seems that it mainly impacts tangs and angelfish. I find it interesting because in my personal system I have a Majestic Angel that is 7" with no problems along with chromis, dottybacks and others. It only seems to effect the tangs. I've been told that tangs are very susceptible to CO2 buildup. I think much more testing needs to be done regarding oxygen levels and CO2 along with chemicals produced in the typical aquarium that are not part of the normal 5 or 6 tests. The article feels that everyone should work to have the best conditions. I think everyone will agree with that fact.

03/13/2006, 08:10 AM	#12
DMK Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: central NJ Posts: 2,494	they can live a long time w/ LLD but at times they can get so crappy looking u (I) might wish they would just croak. i've had 3 tangs, a PT, chevron and a kole, all different times, but from same store, that all eventually got it bad and disappeared. i'm trying for A 4TH tang soon, from a different supplier, and if it happens again, i'm done w/ tangs.

03/13/2006, 08:47 AM	#13
JRR Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 166	DMK, This is an interesting approach but my tangs have come from different suppliers and even been directly shipped in from various places. The problem is something in your aquarium that is unique. Many systems never have these problems. We need more studies done on this topic.

03/13/2006, 02:10 PM	#15
cameronsloan Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centennial, CO. Posts: 82	I don't know what to make of this but thought I would throw this out there to see what you all think: http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/hlle.html

03/13/2006, 03:03 PM	#17
DMK Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: central NJ Posts: 2,494	i think a main factor w/ tangs getting LLD, is if there's not enough feww swimming space. i had a ton of LR when i had the tangs and a huge acro at bottom blocking entrance to cave which led to other side. i removed the acro and about 25lb LR. definately more open. we'll see what happens. all other aspects were on point( diet, ground probe, etc).

03/13/2006, 08:24 PM	#18
DamienHanna Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 50	My opinion is based purely on experience and a lot of reading but I have seen my purple tange alomost completely reverse a severe case of HLLE is less than six months. My opinion is that its closely related to stress and here's why I beleive that. MY PT was doing fine in my 125G FOWLR for over a year when she developed a mild case if ich. I removed her for treatment and placed her in a 40G treatment tank with some live rock and a sand bottom (used hyposalinity to treat ich). In less than 3 weeks she started showing some serious lesions around the head which spread to her lateral line. In the meantime I was setting up a new 240G reef where I was going to move her. She hid a lot in the treatment tank but ate well although she didn't swim around much; she just kinda hung out. The HLLE got worse; I fed her nori soaked in selcon, mysis, Formula 2 and spiraluna flakes all to no avail. Finally after 6 weeks in hypo I moved her to the new reef where she would be the "boss". Difference in behavior was amazing; swan around actively all day, defended her turf agressively and ate like a pig. Within a month I noticed the lateral line scarring was fading and within 3 months it was gone. Her head lesions cleared up over the next few months too and now she looks good as new (almost; she has lot most of her "stripes" and the dark spots are a lot harder to see but this is normally for a captive PT I think). So my 2c isL 1. This is not a killer disease; the lesions are sterile and do not affect the fish's health in any way. Its also not contagious. 2. It's absolutely reversible with the correct environmental condition as many have stated her. With my case I think it was a combination of more space, better water quality and a most "natural" reef setting to live in. I am less inclined to attibute the healing to diet. 3. Low stress levels; my PT is a plump 6 incher and rules the roost on my reef. I am convinved that the lack of serious threats from other agressive species helps a lot with her overall health. I also have a smaller Acanthurus Lineatus in the tank with her and I've had him for two years without any issues. He bickers with the PT now and then but they each manage their own space pretty harmoniously (I have another theory about how to keep the very difficlut A. Lineatus species happy but that's another story!). Once again there is nothing scientific about my analysis and I don't claim to know anything more about HLLE than anyone else here but I do know what worked for me. YMMV but god luck... :-) --Damien

07/23/2006, 08:00 PM	#19
Gools Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Vernon, BC Posts: 795	Just thought I'd give an update on what happened. Got the Purple tang on March 14/06 Picture taken today, 4 months later. All happy and healthy

07/24/2006, 12:27 AM	#20
Ursus Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 480	It seems to me that just about every issue with tangs comes back to stress. No matter what you do, if a tang is stressed there seems to be very adverse affects other than immediate death.

07/24/2006, 03:08 AM	#21
smiller Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 9,207	__________________ Steve It's good to learn from your experiences. It's better to learn from other's experiences.

07/24/2006, 12:39 PM	#22
JRR Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 166	Hi Gools, What do you think caused this success? I really would like to know. How do you feed what are your Phophates, Nitrates? Do you have a deep sand bed if so for how long? Do you use certain trace elements/ vitamins? What brand of salt? Are there other tangs in your aquarium? Thanks, Jim

07/24/2006, 02:49 PM	#23
Gools Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Vernon, BC Posts: 795	Hi Jim I got the Purple from an online store, before he sold it to me he told me he had HLLE, so I got a cheap price on him. I figure it was just the stress from being caught and handled. I have an established tank, it's just over 4yrs old, with a 2" sand bed, give or take. No ideas what my phosphates or nitrates are, don't bother testing for that, although looking into phosphates, to see if it has any effect on my acros, but that's another subject. I use Tropic Marin salt, and only do a 30g water change every 4-6months, on my 180. I did soak all my frozen food, mostly mysis, in Kent Zoe, and Kent garlic. Also feed flake foods, which already had garlic additives added to it. Other then that I don't dose anything else to my tank. There are 2 other tangs in the tank, a mimic, and yellow. The yellow, and purple fought good for a day or 2 then that was it, the yellow taking the worst, and being a tad bit smaller. But now they are great. all my fish get along, and have no stresses. I think with a good mature/healthy tank, and good nutrition, stress free environment, this is a cureable disease.

07/24/2006, 04:03 PM	#24
JRR Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 166	I'm glad to know that it is a curable disease. That is great. What type of lighting do you have and one temp do you keep the water? I'm just trying to figure out what your doing? I have three purple tangs in a 500 gallon system along with a regal tang and the regal and one purple have the problem but they do not fight and all seem to get along. I would like to correct the two fish and try to prevent the others from having the problem. Thanks, Jim

07/30/2006, 08:04 AM	#25
Gools Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Vernon, BC Posts: 795	I have 2 400w, and 2 175w, with 4 54w T5 as supplimental lighting. My Temp ranges from 78- 83, I need a chiller. On a 500g, what kind of skimmer are you running? Water quality, is huge.