clown fish is breating really fast...

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 03:12 PM

Hi,

Today I got home from work to find my black perc laying on top of a piece of rock, and breathing really fast....any ideas why he's freakin out. Also, when I fed the fish, he didn't come and eat...which is strange as he is usually the first one to eat.
He's been in the tank for over a month now, so it's not a new introduction problem and all of the other fish in the tank are doing fine.

ReefNewb77 · 03/20/2006, 03:16 PM

check your water parameters.

kingtoad · 03/20/2006, 03:17 PM

What are you water parameters?

A slight change in the parameters could cause a stress on the fish.

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 03:26 PM

the water parameters are testing well
the only thing that I can think of is that we did a water change last night and the salinity was a little high, and when we did the water change we brought it down...would that affect him in that way though??

kingtoad · 03/20/2006, 03:54 PM

I'm sure if would affect him if he did not have time to accimilate to the changes.

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 06:16 PM

seems kinda wierd how he was the only one affected by it though....we have several other fish in the tank and everything else is doing fine

Drewcipher · 03/20/2006, 06:27 PM

What kind of clown is it? When I bought my black saddlebacks I read that they can take up to 4 months to completely acclimate to an aquarium.

What is your old and new salinity?

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 06:39 PM

he's a black percula clownfish and the old salinity was 1.028 and the new one is 1.026...

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 07:05 PM

is there anyway I can reverse this issue?? PLEASE HELP!!

WaterKeeper · 03/20/2006, 07:09 PM

Heavy breathing indicates either low dissolved oxygen or an infection that has entered the gills. Usually with low D.O. the fish will swim near the surface and may even gulp air (more common in FW fish than SW). Usually a low D.O condition is caused by a mechanical breakdown lowering circulation or a bacteria bloom that consumes oxygen.

Ich and velvet are the two most common ailments that afflict the gills. Of the two, velvet is the hardest to identify. Often the "vail of death" that gives a visual sign of the disease is not apparent until the gill are fully inflammed and a cure is most difficult, if not impossible. Questions to be asked are-

Was there any scractching against the rockwork before the collapse?
Are the gills red, swollen and inflammed?
Has anything been added recently that had not been quarantined first?

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 07:25 PM

the perc did have ich a while ago but the spots have been gone from his body for at least a couple of weeks now, we have seen him rubbing on the sandbed within the last week but have read that it is a normal behaviour for clowns to do this occasionally....something called tail fanning...is that not true?? his gills are not imflammed from what I can tell...he's just breating really heavily. I'm fairly certain it's not a DO problem, as he has now moved to the bottom of the tank and I haven't seen him gulp for air at all.

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 07:26 PM

we haven't added anything recently that hasn't been quarantined either...

kingtoad · 03/20/2006, 07:30 PM

He most likely has Ich. The life cycle of Ich is very interesting. They appear as though they are no longer affected by Ich, but really the Ich is in the sandbed reproducing. When he's rubbing on the sandbed or rock structure it's also a sign of Ich.

I suggest putting him into a QT ASAP.

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 10:03 PM

if this is true and he does have ich, then we have a small problem. we recently acquired a baby hippo tang and it is currently in our quarantine tank....if i move the clown to the quarantine then the tang will get ich, and so far it isn't eating well. I don't really want to risk losing it....what to do??

fish_NEMO · 03/20/2006, 10:13 PM

how long has the clown bean like this?? your best bet is to put the tang in the diplay tank and put him in their, or go and get another 20gal tank from the walmart and take a bit of LR and LS from your display and put in their... hope it all turns out good

Ibrakeforreefs · 03/20/2006, 10:28 PM

Hmm.

Symptoms if Whitespot, or Ich are flicking and scratching against random surfaces...

That sounds like it to me...

The best thing you can do right now is to QT your fish and maybe start some copper meds?

If you can use a UV Steralizer that would be good too... to control the Ich that is reproducing in your sand.

Other than that I dont know what to tell you, I am a noob at this too.

xtrstangx · 03/20/2006, 10:33 PM

1. I would stay away from copper medications. Too much copper and you can kill the fish.. too little copper and it is inneffective and may not kill the Ich even. Also, copper can ruin a tank into always being a hospital tank (can't even be a QT afterwards cause inverts can't stand copper). And on top of all of that, copper has not been scientifically proven to kill Ich.

2. QT the fish. Pull them all out and put them in a proper QT tank. There are lots of good threads on http://reefkeeping.com .. I would treat with hyposalinity as it has been proven to kill Ich. Its also much easier to do and safer on the fish. Again, search on reef keeping and you should find some things to get a good idea and you should be able to find more on RC in the Disease Forum.

Remeber to leave your tank empty of fish for ATLEAST 6 weeks. If you don't then you won't break the Ich's life cycle. The way Ich lives, you have to remove a host for 6 weeks... this way all of the ich dies, regardless of what stage it is in. UV sterilizer is ineffective at removing these, so its not worth the extra expense to "cure" your tank of Ich.

Cleaner shrimp don't do anything at curing Ich.

Ibrakeforreefs · 03/20/2006, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xtrstangx
1. I would stay away from copper medications. Too much copper and you can kill the fish.. too little copper and it is inneffective and may not kill the Ich even. Also, copper can ruin a tank into always being a hospital tank (can't even be a QT afterwards cause inverts can't stand copper). And on top of all of that, copper has not been scientifically proven to kill Ich.

2. QT the fish. Pull them all out and put them in a proper QT tank. There are lots of good threads on http://reefkeeping.com .. I would treat with hyposalinity as it has been proven to kill Ich. Its also much easier to do and safer on the fish. Again, search on reef keeping and you should find some things to get a good idea and you should be able to find more on RC in the Disease Forum.

Remeber to leave your tank empty of fish for ATLEAST 6 weeks. If you don't then you won't break the Ich's life cycle. The way Ich lives, you have to remove a host for 6 weeks... this way all of the ich dies, regardless of what stage it is in. UV sterilizer is ineffective at removing these, so its not worth the extra expense to "cure" your tank of Ich.

Cleaner shrimp don't do anything at curing Ich.

In response to xtrstangx's post:

1. Copper medications are fine as long as you monitor your tank daily. And with a tank that allegidly has a Cryptocaryon iritans infection he would be smart to be checking it everyday anyway.

2. Apperantly you have selective reading. I never claimed that the UV Steraltizer would REMOVE Ich. The UV Steralizer will help the copper medication control the free-swimming parasitic stage of the disease.

Other than that I totally agree with you on the QT. This disease is highly infectious (obviously) and that is going to be the best way to "cure" your tank.

Best of luck.

~Ibrakeforreefs~

PS. Again, I am a noob. Your best best is to blown [Horn of the Waterkeeper] to summon him with his response. Or just PM him.

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 11:06 PM

if i place the clown in the tank with our new tang, and then slowly decrease the salinity in the tank, will that be ok for both of them?? I really don't want to put our tang under any more stress than necessary. By the way, none of the other fish in the tank have ich....i know that it is obviously still present in the our main tank, but the other fish are all fine it's just the clown. If we keep the newer fish in QT for the six weeks, do you think that that'll kill the ich even if we keep the other fish in the tank?? our QT isn't very big...10 gallons so i think that it would be a bad idea to have 7 fish in a 10 gallon tank.

jenzabear · 03/20/2006, 11:07 PM

also, we do have a UV sterilizer for the tank already.

WaterKeeper · 03/21/2006, 08:55 AM

I'm not so sure that copper has not been proven to be effective against protists like those that cause ich or oodinium. A literature search will show that many leading authorities on fish diseases still consider it effective. The alternative treatment of hyposalinity also shows effectiveness against ich but has a poor track record against marine velvet. You cannot use hypo in the main tank. Even in a FO tank it can cause serious injury to the "good critters" on the LR and LS. It needs to be done in a hospital tank. All fish in a tank that has an ich or velvet outbreak need to undergo treatment. Some fish apparently have immunity to ick and oo but act as carriers. As both are obligate parasites you can leave the corals in the main tank as they can't attack these and will die off without a fish host.

xtrstangx · 03/21/2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
I'm not so sure that copper has not been proven to be effective against protists like those that cause ich or oodinium. A literature search will show that many leading authorities on fish diseases still consider it effective. The alternative treatment of hyposalinity also shows effectiveness against ich but has a poor track record against marine velvet. You cannot use hypo in the main tank. Even in a FO tank it can cause serious injury to the "good critters" on the LR and LS. It needs to be done in a hospital tank. All fish in a tank that has an ich or velvet outbreak need to undergo treatment. Some fish apparently have immunity to ick and oo but act as carriers. As both are obligate parasites you can leave the corals in the main tank as they can't attack these and will die off without a fish host.

Of course copper is effective, but from what I've read on the subject, it hasn't been proven effective.

Either way you go (copper or hypo), you have to treat for Ich in a hospital tank.

Drewcipher · 03/22/2006, 10:56 AM

What did you do and how is it going so far?

03/20/2006, 03:12 PM	#1
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	clown fish is breating really fast... Hi, Today I got home from work to find my black perc laying on top of a piece of rock, and breathing really fast....any ideas why he's freakin out. Also, when I fed the fish, he didn't come and eat...which is strange as he is usually the first one to eat. He's been in the tank for over a month now, so it's not a new introduction problem and all of the other fish in the tank are doing fine.

03/20/2006, 06:27 PM	#7
Drewcipher Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bailey, CO Posts: 896	What kind of clown is it? When I bought my black saddlebacks I read that they can take up to 4 months to completely acclimate to an aquarium. What is your old and new salinity? __________________ Drew I'm growing older but not up My metabolic rate is pleasantly stuck Let those winds of time blow over my head I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead--Jimmy Buffett Current Tank Info: 75 gallon, Red Sea Max, setting up a 180

03/20/2006, 07:09 PM	#10
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Heavy breathing indicates either low dissolved oxygen or an infection that has entered the gills. Usually with low D.O. the fish will swim near the surface and may even gulp air (more common in FW fish than SW). Usually a low D.O condition is caused by a mechanical breakdown lowering circulation or a bacteria bloom that consumes oxygen. Ich and velvet are the two most common ailments that afflict the gills. Of the two, velvet is the hardest to identify. Often the "vail of death" that gives a visual sign of the disease is not apparent until the gill are fully inflammed and a cure is most difficult, if not impossible. Questions to be asked are- Was there any scractching against the rockwork before the collapse? Are the gills red, swollen and inflammed? Has anything been added recently that had not been quarantined first? __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

03/20/2006, 10:28 PM	#16
Ibrakeforreefs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Shawnee, KS Posts: 20	Hmm. Symptoms if Whitespot, or Ich are flicking and scratching against random surfaces... That sounds like it to me... The best thing you can do right now is to QT your fish and maybe start some copper meds? If you can use a UV Steralizer that would be good too... to control the Ich that is reproducing in your sand. Other than that I dont know what to tell you, I am a noob at this too. __________________ FW was easy, another task please? Current Tank Info: SW Tank

03/21/2006, 08:55 AM	#21
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	I'm not so sure that copper has not been proven to be effective against protists like those that cause ich or oodinium. A literature search will show that many leading authorities on fish diseases still consider it effective. The alternative treatment of hyposalinity also shows effectiveness against ich but has a poor track record against marine velvet. You cannot use hypo in the main tank. Even in a FO tank it can cause serious injury to the "good critters" on the LR and LS. It needs to be done in a hospital tank. All fish in a tank that has an ich or velvet outbreak need to undergo treatment. Some fish apparently have immunity to ick and oo but act as carriers. As both are obligate parasites you can leave the corals in the main tank as they can't attack these and will die off without a fish host. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

03/20/2006, 03:16 PM	#2
ReefNewb77 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 10	check your water parameters.

03/20/2006, 03:17 PM	#3
kingtoad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 399	What are you water parameters? A slight change in the parameters could cause a stress on the fish.

03/20/2006, 03:26 PM	#4
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	the water parameters are testing well the only thing that I can think of is that we did a water change last night and the salinity was a little high, and when we did the water change we brought it down...would that affect him in that way though??

03/20/2006, 03:54 PM	#5
kingtoad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 399	I'm sure if would affect him if he did not have time to accimilate to the changes.

03/20/2006, 06:16 PM	#6
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	seems kinda wierd how he was the only one affected by it though....we have several other fish in the tank and everything else is doing fine

03/20/2006, 06:39 PM	#8
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	he's a black percula clownfish and the old salinity was 1.028 and the new one is 1.026...

03/20/2006, 07:05 PM	#9
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	is there anyway I can reverse this issue?? PLEASE HELP!!

03/20/2006, 07:25 PM	#11
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	the perc did have ich a while ago but the spots have been gone from his body for at least a couple of weeks now, we have seen him rubbing on the sandbed within the last week but have read that it is a normal behaviour for clowns to do this occasionally....something called tail fanning...is that not true?? his gills are not imflammed from what I can tell...he's just breating really heavily. I'm fairly certain it's not a DO problem, as he has now moved to the bottom of the tank and I haven't seen him gulp for air at all.

03/20/2006, 07:26 PM	#12
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	we haven't added anything recently that hasn't been quarantined either...

03/20/2006, 07:30 PM	#13
kingtoad Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 399	He most likely has Ich. The life cycle of Ich is very interesting. They appear as though they are no longer affected by Ich, but really the Ich is in the sandbed reproducing. When he's rubbing on the sandbed or rock structure it's also a sign of Ich. I suggest putting him into a QT ASAP.

03/20/2006, 10:03 PM	#14
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	if this is true and he does have ich, then we have a small problem. we recently acquired a baby hippo tang and it is currently in our quarantine tank....if i move the clown to the quarantine then the tang will get ich, and so far it isn't eating well. I don't really want to risk losing it....what to do??

03/20/2006, 10:13 PM	#15
fish_NEMO Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 247	how long has the clown bean like this?? your best bet is to put the tang in the diplay tank and put him in their, or go and get another 20gal tank from the walmart and take a bit of LR and LS from your display and put in their... hope it all turns out good

03/20/2006, 10:33 PM	#17
xtrstangx Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Shawnee, Kansas Posts: 4,568	1. I would stay away from copper medications. Too much copper and you can kill the fish.. too little copper and it is inneffective and may not kill the Ich even. Also, copper can ruin a tank into always being a hospital tank (can't even be a QT afterwards cause inverts can't stand copper). And on top of all of that, copper has not been scientifically proven to kill Ich. 2. QT the fish. Pull them all out and put them in a proper QT tank. There are lots of good threads on http://reefkeeping.com .. I would treat with hyposalinity as it has been proven to kill Ich. Its also much easier to do and safer on the fish. Again, search on reef keeping and you should find some things to get a good idea and you should be able to find more on RC in the Disease Forum. Remeber to leave your tank empty of fish for ATLEAST 6 weeks. If you don't then you won't break the Ich's life cycle. The way Ich lives, you have to remove a host for 6 weeks... this way all of the ich dies, regardless of what stage it is in. UV sterilizer is ineffective at removing these, so its not worth the extra expense to "cure" your tank of Ich. Cleaner shrimp don't do anything at curing Ich.

03/20/2006, 11:06 PM	#19
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	if i place the clown in the tank with our new tang, and then slowly decrease the salinity in the tank, will that be ok for both of them?? I really don't want to put our tang under any more stress than necessary. By the way, none of the other fish in the tank have ich....i know that it is obviously still present in the our main tank, but the other fish are all fine it's just the clown. If we keep the newer fish in QT for the six weeks, do you think that that'll kill the ich even if we keep the other fish in the tank?? our QT isn't very big...10 gallons so i think that it would be a bad idea to have 7 fish in a 10 gallon tank.

03/20/2006, 11:07 PM	#20
jenzabear Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 90	also, we do have a UV sterilizer for the tank already.

03/22/2006, 10:56 AM	#23
Drewcipher Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bailey, CO Posts: 896	What did you do and how is it going so far? __________________ Drew I'm growing older but not up My metabolic rate is pleasantly stuck Let those winds of time blow over my head I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead--Jimmy Buffett Current Tank Info: 75 gallon, Red Sea Max, setting up a 180