Deep Sand Bed

yiorgo · 04/03/2006, 07:37 PM

Hi Bertoni,

thank you very much for your article on DSB.
I have a question regarding the grain ratio of the aragonite sand that you listed in your post.:
A depth of 6" (15cm) is usually the deepest that is suggested, with 4" (10cm) a likely minimum for reasonable effectiveness. The sand must be chosen carefully for particle size. Most or all commercial sand mixes are too coarse, so some careful research is suggested. This sample distribution (given in millimeters) is a good starting point:

When you get the different grades of sand, do you then mix them together at the appropriate ratio, or you have to layer them in a particular order?

Thanks,

Yiorgo

bertoni · 04/03/2006, 08:50 PM

I would just mix them up a bit, but the animals should do a lot of mixing on their own. The coarser stuff will work its way to the top over time, so you could mix some of the fine and coarse substrate together, and put that on the top, I guess.

yiorgo · 04/03/2006, 08:56 PM

Thanks Jonathan,

that makes sence!
Also, are hermit crabs bab for the DSB? If you have a small number of them will it still be harmfull?
If yes, is there another organism that can replace hermit crabs and perform a similar function in the reef?

Thanks,

Yiorgo

bertoni · 04/03/2006, 10:16 PM

Hermit crabs are bad for DSBs. I wouldn't add any at all. One small one might not be too bad in a 65g tank. I don't have hermit crabs in my tank and don't miss them.

sundance1 · 04/03/2006, 10:26 PM

Why are hermit crabs bad for a DSB?

bertoni · 04/03/2006, 10:35 PM

They are predatory on small animals, and aren't very picky about what they eat. In addition, they're very easy to overstock since the population density on a real reef is very low. The invertebrate forum has more on this topic.

bjonesjr1 · 04/03/2006, 10:39 PM

hey john,
do you think that 10 blue legged hermit crabs or bad for my sand bed that is about 2"-3" ??? or is it ok, maybe I should go back to about half that too (5)... thanks for the input

bertoni · 04/03/2006, 10:41 PM

Well, that depends on how live you want the sand to be. For a 2-3" sandbed, that's probably not critical, though.

bjonesjr1 · 04/03/2006, 10:55 PM

so I'm fine then in away that the hermit's aren't doing to much damage to my SB and that their is no need for any more and whats in their won't starve but won't kill either... right even if I add some more sand ???

bertoni · 04/04/2006, 12:02 AM

The hermit crabs might starve over time, but you can always add a bit extra food for them. I suspect your sand isn't very live, but that's okay in general. If you want to add sand, I'd add maybe 1/4" at a time, and wait a few weeks between additions. If there are any animals in the sand, that'll give them time to move up and adjust.

bjonesjr1 · 04/04/2006, 08:23 AM

alright thanks John, I did recieve a Cup of LS from a local RC member that helped kick start my sand, I assume... Will keep the adding of sand though in mind so that I don't mess things up, thanks for the info

Sparkss · 05/01/2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
I would just mix them up a bit, but the animals should do a lot of mixing on their own. The coarser stuff will work its way to the top over time, so you could mix some of the fine and coarse substrate together, and put that on the top, I guess.

What animals do you suggest as optimal for a refugium with a DSB ? (24" X 16" X 3 1/2" sandbed -- soon to increase to at least 4", based on your answer to my next question)

Also, I just wanted to confirm that 4" is the minimum for a DSB and 6" is the maximum ?

romunov · 05/02/2006, 08:43 AM

Animals from a wild lagoon. Good luck.

bertoni · 05/02/2006, 10:43 PM

24"x16" is pretty small for a DSB, IMO. The remote DSBs aren't necessarily easy to keep going in any case, since getting the food to them can be difficult.

I stocked my DSBs with kits from ipsf.com and InlandAquatics.com (the refugium fauna kit). There are other vendors, but those places should give you some ideas.

Sparkss · 05/03/2006, 12:36 AM

Bertoni,
The top layer is from a year and a half old refugium, so it is loaded with pods, mini stars, spaghetti worms, mysids, etc. I am just considering some other sand bed stirrers, like a conch or some other larger animals.

romunov,
If you aren't going to post anything constructive or useful, then please refrain from posting at all. Thanks.

romunov · 05/04/2006, 12:10 AM

You asked WHAT animals, not where (vendor) to get them.

Those are hair worms, not spaghetti. Two different families.

Spaghetti and Hair WormsÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ WhatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s in a Name?

A conch will be too big for your tank.

The Grazing Snails, Part III - Conchs, Ceriths, Cowries, and Columbellids

04/03/2006, 07:37 PM	#1
yiorgo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 58	Deep Sand Bed Hi Bertoni, thank you very much for your article on DSB. I have a question regarding the grain ratio of the aragonite sand that you listed in your post.: A depth of 6" (15cm) is usually the deepest that is suggested, with 4" (10cm) a likely minimum for reasonable effectiveness. The sand must be chosen carefully for particle size. Most or all commercial sand mixes are too coarse, so some careful research is suggested. This sample distribution (given in millimeters) is a good starting point: When you get the different grades of sand, do you then mix them together at the appropriate ratio, or you have to layer them in a particular order? Thanks, Yiorgo

04/03/2006, 08:50 PM	#2
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I would just mix them up a bit, but the animals should do a lot of mixing on their own. The coarser stuff will work its way to the top over time, so you could mix some of the fine and coarse substrate together, and put that on the top, I guess. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/03/2006, 10:16 PM	#4
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Hermit crabs are bad for DSBs. I wouldn't add any at all. One small one might not be too bad in a 65g tank. I don't have hermit crabs in my tank and don't miss them. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/03/2006, 10:35 PM	#6
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	They are predatory on small animals, and aren't very picky about what they eat. In addition, they're very easy to overstock since the population density on a real reef is very low. The invertebrate forum has more on this topic. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/03/2006, 10:39 PM	#7
bjonesjr1 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 1,258	hey john, do you think that 10 blue legged hermit crabs or bad for my sand bed that is about 2"-3" ??? or is it ok, maybe I should go back to about half that too (5)... thanks for the input __________________ Bobby Current Tank Info: 75gal, LifeReef CLF1 Sump & SVS2-24 Skimmer

04/03/2006, 08:56 PM	#3
yiorgo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 58	Thanks Jonathan, that makes sence! Also, are hermit crabs bab for the DSB? If you have a small number of them will it still be harmfull? If yes, is there another organism that can replace hermit crabs and perform a similar function in the reef? Thanks, Yiorgo

04/03/2006, 10:26 PM	#5
sundance1 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bedford,PA Posts: 230	Why are hermit crabs bad for a DSB?

04/03/2006, 10:41 PM	#8
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Well, that depends on how live you want the sand to be. For a 2-3" sandbed, that's probably not critical, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/03/2006, 10:55 PM	#9
bjonesjr1 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 1,258	so I'm fine then in away that the hermit's aren't doing to much damage to my SB and that their is no need for any more and whats in their won't starve but won't kill either... right even if I add some more sand ??? __________________ Bobby Current Tank Info: 75gal, LifeReef CLF1 Sump & SVS2-24 Skimmer

04/04/2006, 12:02 AM	#10
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The hermit crabs might starve over time, but you can always add a bit extra food for them. I suspect your sand isn't very live, but that's okay in general. If you want to add sand, I'd add maybe 1/4" at a time, and wait a few weeks between additions. If there are any animals in the sand, that'll give them time to move up and adjust. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/04/2006, 08:23 AM	#11
bjonesjr1 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 1,258	alright thanks John, I did recieve a Cup of LS from a local RC member that helped kick start my sand, I assume... Will keep the adding of sand though in mind so that I don't mess things up, thanks for the info __________________ Bobby Current Tank Info: 75gal, LifeReef CLF1 Sump & SVS2-24 Skimmer

05/02/2006, 08:43 AM	#13
romunov Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,453	Animals from a wild lagoon. Good luck. __________________ Life is too short to learn everything from experience. "And ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."

05/02/2006, 10:43 PM	#14
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	24"x16" is pretty small for a DSB, IMO. The remote DSBs aren't necessarily easy to keep going in any case, since getting the food to them can be difficult. I stocked my DSBs with kits from ipsf.com and InlandAquatics.com (the refugium fauna kit). There are other vendors, but those places should give you some ideas. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/03/2006, 12:36 AM	#15
Sparkss Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oakley (94561) Posts: 5,030	Bertoni, The top layer is from a year and a half old refugium, so it is loaded with pods, mini stars, spaghetti worms, mysids, etc. I am just considering some other sand bed stirrers, like a conch or some other larger animals. romunov, If you aren't going to post anything constructive or useful, then please refrain from posting at all. Thanks. __________________ - Tom Current Tank Info: 380 starfire inwall ,two 150g sump/fuge. Volcano Ca RX, ato, 6' Volcano skimmer. LAIIIs w/400w AquaConnect 14K on IC EBallasts

05/04/2006, 12:10 AM	#16
romunov Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,453	You asked WHAT animals, not where (vendor) to get them. Those are hair worms, not spaghetti. Two different families. Spaghetti and Hair WormsÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ WhatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s in a Name? A conch will be too big for your tank. The Grazing Snails, Part III - Conchs, Ceriths, Cowries, and Columbellids __________________ Life is too short to learn everything from experience. "And ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."