Can High Powered LED replace reef lighting?

Siapin · 04/10/2006, 10:16 AM

LED's are becoming more and more sophisticated and more powerful. Just a few years ago, they were just coming out with blue colored LED's, and now they have every color of the spectrum. And now, for the high powered LED's, they don't rate them in MCD, but in Lumens, because of their high intensity output. This is all being done while maintaining a very low electrical output.

Metal Halides, T-5, PC are all good lighting for reefers, but use quite a bit of electricity, especially MH, which is prohibitive to a reefer wanting a large tank, but can't afford the high electricity bill.

Does anyone know if it's possible at all to use 100+ LED's as a replacement for MH lighting? Of course anything is possible, but would it produce lighting that would be benificial towards sps and other corals? If anyone has any information or a website, forward it please. I'd like to experiment that theory if someone knows that it is possible.

Thanks, Daniel

BeanAnimal · 04/10/2006, 10:32 AM

No, LEDs are not there yet. The LED count and driver complexity make the product to expensive at this time.

Give it a few more years and with better spectrum, even more power and more compact units... it may happen.

Siapin · 04/10/2006, 10:49 AM

Too expensive? I was under the assumption that LED's are so very inexpensive. On eBay, you can buy 100 for $30. And it's pretty much a one time buy. MH bulbs go out after a year or so, you have to replace bulbs, but LED's last 20+ years, and they use a fraction of the electricity. I don't understand how it's too expensive right now. Can you explain that? I'm not a professional at LED's, so I may not completely understand you.

BeanAnimal · 04/10/2006, 11:05 AM

COSTS:

The number of LEDs needed to the the desired PAR (spectrum and intensity) is HUGE. The actual SPECTRUM achievable is questionable anyway.

The complexity if a current source driver to power the array, and do so efficiently.

The amount of connections required and the high denisty need to pack the LEDs.

The phyical size of the array and the need to waterproof the LEDs and connections without reducing the light output.

The LIFESPAN at the rated output will be much less than 20+ years. Spectral changes and reduced output are also a reality with LEDs.

The R&D costs and manufacturing costs, added to the marketing costs will drive the price upwards. Add on a bit of extra cost for "new technology" and demand...

Someday you may see a unit hat provides the needed light at a reasonable cost. It is not going to be right now.

Organic LEDS may also be promising... and more development is going into that field each day.

dougwilliams · 04/10/2006, 11:07 AM

I agree and disagree on some points. I've looked previosuly and the biggest downside I see is that it would be a pain to wire up as many LEDs as you would need to get the total light output comparable to other light sources. There are commericially available single LEDs that are rated in Watts (1W, 3W, 5W are common these days).

The spectral output of LEDs is extremely monochromatic - ideally a single wavelength - but after manufacturing tolerences etc, they disperse a little bit. For example - a blue LED might be nominally 450nM light output, and it will have very little optical emitted components +- 450. That in comparison to MH or anything else that has a curve spanning the whole color range usually with one or two peak values (see Sanjay website for typical MH examples). Between LEDs though you might get one that 450, one thats 452, one thats 447 etc - again- thats binning the individual LEDs to spec them out after manufacturing.

That does not hold true for so called "white" LEDs. White being a conglomerate of many colors together- there really isnt a way yet to make a pure white LED. What they typically do is put a lens over the LED emitter that "flouresces" another color (usually yellow) and the sum of the blue and yellow makes it look white. Of course that in itself has a big impact on the total efficiency, and thus white LEDs are usually the least efficient LEDs available.

Furthermore, I have yet to see any good report on what spectrum light corals and livestock need to survive and thrive. The sun is emitting a full spectrum, and I imagine many creatures have different needs. What is the ideal spectrum need for photosynthesis in zooxanthellae and all the other light consuming creatures? If it is fairly narrow band, or one or two bands, then LEDs might come into their own in this market. I dont have the answers to those questions though (I'm an engineer- not a biologist...)

And finally, in my opinion LEDs are probably the easiest light source to drive properly and safely. (So this is where I disagree with Bean --see above). MH, and the various flourescents all require hundreds of volts to start and maintain, and you need strike voltages and pulses and thermal monitoring and failure monitoring circuitry etc. An LED can be lit with any DC source, and needs only a few volts - a bettery will work fine. Furthermore, dimming across the LEDs full output range (0% (off) to 100% (fully on) and anything in between is possible with simple current varying curcuitry). A downside is that most of the high power (ie a few Watt) LEDs do indeed produce a good amount of heat, and are usually sold preattached to alumina substrates for heat dispersion, and require additional heat sinking in the application circuitry to further disperse heat). In an ideal diode heat would not be generated at all - all input power would be converted to light only with no heat, but we dont live in an ideal world.

On the positive side, I see a lot of the LED, optoelectronic trade magazines, and there is currently a lot of reserach in improving total output, total efficiency, and making more efficient "full spectrum" white LEDs.

Soon soon...

BeanAnimal · 04/10/2006, 11:29 AM

doug... I understand where you disagree. I guess we are looking at it (no pun) differently.

The size of array we are talking about would need a fairly complex series/parallel arangement to to ensure reliability and reasonable current or voltage paths for each sub array. To keep the "efficiency" of the LEDs, the drive would have to be a matched current source, not a simple voltage source, otherwise the efficiency will be wasted in the electronics. Good current source LED drivers are somewhat complex compared to a "battery" or "ballast". Not that an E-ballast isn't somewhat complicated.

The heat issue is a big problem that I did not mention in this thread.

In any case... thanks for adding to the discussion.

Siapin · 04/10/2006, 11:34 AM

Man, that was awesome feedback guys...I have to read it again to thoroughly absorb it.

Thanks guys.

Spracklcat · 04/10/2006, 11:36 AM

To add to Doug's stuff--

At NERAC last month, there was a good talk by Tullio del Aquila addressing some of the issues in new LED fixtures and demonstrating the fixtures themselves. Firstly, PAR is a much more appropriate measure of light for our application than lumens is, and when you compare PAR readings of VHO's vs MH vs LED, you can use significantly fewer watts of LED to reach the same PAR. They are in fact using "white" LED's (blue with a yellow phosphor as Doug mentioned, or UV with a RGB phosphor) with good success for coral propagation.
With regards to what wavelengths of light corals need, that depends on the species and at what depth that species naturally resides. That said, there has been little or no research to date attempting to raise corals with a singel wavelength of light because until the advent of LED's all the artifical light we have been using has been broad spectrum.

Just some thoughts...

Siapin · 04/10/2006, 11:38 AM

Is there any information on the web, any documentations that documents coral propagation under LED's?

dougwilliams · 04/10/2006, 02:12 PM

Siapin - yes I agree with you on complexity - I forget there for a moment we were dealing with a whole big bank of them. A few is simple- but you are right that this would most likely end up being a series/parallel combo. A few in series is again easy as they all have the same current- where going parallel requires more detailed control. But then, who cares if one string has 698mA and the other is 705mA? There are a lot of off the shelf ICs for LED control these days - making things easier- a lot of tho0se are designed for battery packs and they are simple, less efficient regulators of one sort or another. This would definately require a switching regulator for control - and right there, at best would be in the neighborhood of 90% efficient itself. I guess in my mind its always easier to control DC at a few volts than having to make something that shoots up to a few hundred volts to kick start the bulb.

BeanAnimal · 04/10/2006, 03:02 PM

not to mention safer

I just got a unit from a friend. It has 10 Luxeons in it... The PCB is thick and thermally attached to a BIG hunk of aluminum. To say this thing gets hot is kind of an undersatement. It is "bright" but I shudder to think at how many would be needed to light a 75, even if the spectrum was correct.

dougwilliams · 04/10/2006, 03:16 PM

Yeah - I got some freebies to test out from Lumileds (they make the Luxeon - but I guess recently got bought out by Philips) - including a some of their blue LEDs - yup - very thick hunk of metal to cool those off passively. The also sent me some of their partners lenses and some of the other partners supplies. All nice stuff, but yeah for all the reasons above - not quite ready for this market yet I think.

But interesting to note that now that they are under Philips (a huge worldwide lighting vendor) I wonder what direction they will go in?

And like you mentioned before- if we take the emitters themselves and even pack them as close as we can in a given area- is it even enough to compare with a MH yet? I envision something like a solid plate of metal covering the tank with every available space dedicated to another emitter. And then - is it enough? And how thick does that metal plate have to be to dissipate the heat safely?

I wonder if rather than using the emitter assemblies if you could get the die and attach them in closer proximity to each other in a larger plate like structure. Then again- who would do such a thing for a low volume like this?

BeanAnimal · 04/10/2006, 04:05 PM

Doug.. that is basically my exact feelings.

For comparison purposes, you can look at LED arrays that are on the market now. Anything that aproaches this FOOTPRINT (Not even close in intensity) costs thousands (if not tens of thousands) of dollars.

the "fish" folks do not constitute any real market value at all. If these arrays could be made and sold cheaper than HID lighting, they would be. Folks need to understand the lighting of commercial space is what drives the industry. Advances in high intensity lighting first make their way into warehouse and factory space, where every lumen per watt is important to the bottom line. Take a typical floor space that used 500 lamps at a height of 30 feet. The lamps are usually MV or MH 1000 watters.

500 lights x 1kW each is 500 kW

Take that times a 10 hour work day (forget a 24 hour warehouse) and your looking at 5000 kwH. So that warehouse costs $500 a day just for lighting.

Bean

dougwilliams · 04/10/2006, 05:48 PM

Yup - fun to play with and I think we'll get there sometime, but not yet. In the meantime, you can rig up some blues as moonlighting - or 1 or two red for surreptitios night viewing.

BeanAnimal · 04/10/2006, 05:54 PM

My setup (not finished) is 64 LEDS in a straight line array. Every 4th LED is red.

I will be using a USB PWM based controller. My software will simulte moon phase using intensity. I had considered using the array for positon as well, allowing the moon to cross the "sky" but am not sure if I want to go through the trouble.

In any case the RED leds are for night viewing when the moon is waning or new.

Bean

Qwiv · 04/10/2006, 06:12 PM

There are a few LED tank builds that have been done on RC. They are only feasable on small tanks at the moment.
The LED's you are refering to on ebay as 100 for $30 are not the high power LEDs. They are also junk from one thread I followed, The guy ended up replacing tons of them due to failures. You need alot of these LED's and wiring them all up is no small feat.
The high power LEDs are Luxeon LEDs. They are 1watt LEDs and higher. These will be a good replacement one day, but are very expensive right now. They are like $40 for (2). Ouch.
http://www.luxeonstar.com/

Both the tanks I saw with LED lighting looked aswome, but they where all Nano's less than 12 gal. Each LED system ended up costing $200 - $450 bucks. I can buy a 150 watt MH for $80 and use the extra money to cover the electricity. Now scale that to a large tank!!!

If you are interested, please experiment, but do it on a Nano. Fellow reefers can use this info to advance the hobby. I plan on trying on my next tank. A MacReef

Scuba_Dave · 04/10/2006, 06:28 PM

I'd be happy just to start replacing some lighting in my home with LED lights at a decent price

BeanAnimal · 04/10/2006, 07:13 PM

Dave that likely will not happen for a while either..... at least not with what we have right now. Who knows what the next 5 years will bring

Scuba_Dave · 04/10/2006, 07:49 PM

I know, I've just finished replacing almost all of my lights in the house with PC bulbs. Started 2 years ago when we moved here.
Bargain store near us _ Building #19 has them for .49 cents

Here is a site that has started offering solutions for normal lighting
http://autolumination.com/tracklights.htm

sodaman · 04/20/2006, 10:28 PM

Just a note on intensity of large array LEDs. I have experience with high power LEDs used for camera vision systems. I don't know the PAR rating but I have a $700 LED ringlight (somewhere around 100 LEDs) that will burn a pattern in your eyes that you will see for several mins after glancing at it for a split second. Just for fun, I may take one home and power it up over my tank just to see how intense it is.

sellout007 · 04/20/2006, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Qwiv
There are a few LED tank builds that have been done on RC. They are only feasable on small tanks at the moment.
The LED's you are refering to on ebay as 100 for $30 are not the high power LEDs. They are also junk from one thread I followed, The guy ended up replacing tons of them due to failures. You need alot of these LED's and wiring them all up is no small feat.
The high power LEDs are Luxeon LEDs. They are 1watt LEDs and higher. These will be a good replacement one day, but are very expensive right now. They are like $40 for (2). Ouch.
http://www.luxeonstar.com/

Both the tanks I saw with LED lighting looked aswome, but they where all Nano's less than 12 gal. Each LED system ended up costing $200 - $450 bucks. I can buy a 150 watt MH for $80 and use the extra money to cover the electricity. Now scale that to a large tank!!!

If you are interested, please experiment, but do it on a Nano. Fellow reefers can use this info to advance the hobby. I plan on trying on my next tank. A MacReef

Any chance you have a link to the tanks that used the LED's? Id like to see pictures and descriptions.

hahnmeister · 04/21/2006, 01:31 AM

you guys need to check out Nano-reef.com. There are several people there using LEDs to light their tanks, up to 7g minibows so far I have seen. The results are impressive.

Siapin · 04/21/2006, 01:43 AM

link for us lazy ones?

hahnmeister · 04/21/2006, 02:08 AM

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...opic=57855&hl=

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...opic=51577&hl=

Even a spectral graph of the superbrite white LEDs shows here that they arent as narrow of a spectrum as you think. This thread lost its pics, but it was an impressive nano w/ LEDs.
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...opic=41595&hl=

I dont know about you, but thats a better spectral curve than most 'white' bulbs out there. Look at that 450nm peak! All you need is some of these and some 420nm LEDs as supplimental actinic and you are set!

If you just go to nano-reef.com, and do a search (its free there) for 'LED lighting' you will find many LED projects going on. Its been going on for a few years there already, but due to a server transfer and a website upgrade, many of the older thread's pictures have been lost. The info is still there though. Many are currently tinkering with the 420nm and 450nm LEDs and the super bright Luxeon LEDs.

shrug1013 · 04/21/2006, 03:26 PM

great information!!!

04/10/2006, 10:49 AM	#3
Siapin Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 924	Too expensive? I was under the assumption that LED's are so very inexpensive. On eBay, you can buy 100 for $30. And it's pretty much a one time buy. MH bulbs go out after a year or so, you have to replace bulbs, but LED's last 20+ years, and they use a fraction of the electricity. I don't understand how it's too expensive right now. Can you explain that? I'm not a professional at LED's, so I may not completely understand you. __________________ Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits. Chuck Norris destroyed the periodic table, cuz he only knows the element of surprise. Chuck Norris can read a book by its cover! Current Tank Info: Innovative Marine Nuvo 38 -40 lbs live sand -35 lbs live rock -EcoTech Radion Pro -EcoTech mp10w -Tunze Comline 9004 skimmer -Tunze Osmolator (5017) w/calcium dispenser (5074)

04/10/2006, 11:07 AM	#5
dougwilliams Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vestal, NY Posts: 761	I agree and disagree on some points. I've looked previosuly and the biggest downside I see is that it would be a pain to wire up as many LEDs as you would need to get the total light output comparable to other light sources. There are commericially available single LEDs that are rated in Watts (1W, 3W, 5W are common these days). The spectral output of LEDs is extremely monochromatic - ideally a single wavelength - but after manufacturing tolerences etc, they disperse a little bit. For example - a blue LED might be nominally 450nM light output, and it will have very little optical emitted components +- 450. That in comparison to MH or anything else that has a curve spanning the whole color range usually with one or two peak values (see Sanjay website for typical MH examples). Between LEDs though you might get one that 450, one thats 452, one thats 447 etc - again- thats binning the individual LEDs to spec them out after manufacturing. That does not hold true for so called "white" LEDs. White being a conglomerate of many colors together- there really isnt a way yet to make a pure white LED. What they typically do is put a lens over the LED emitter that "flouresces" another color (usually yellow) and the sum of the blue and yellow makes it look white. Of course that in itself has a big impact on the total efficiency, and thus white LEDs are usually the least efficient LEDs available. Furthermore, I have yet to see any good report on what spectrum light corals and livestock need to survive and thrive. The sun is emitting a full spectrum, and I imagine many creatures have different needs. What is the ideal spectrum need for photosynthesis in zooxanthellae and all the other light consuming creatures? If it is fairly narrow band, or one or two bands, then LEDs might come into their own in this market. I dont have the answers to those questions though (I'm an engineer- not a biologist...) And finally, in my opinion LEDs are probably the easiest light source to drive properly and safely. (So this is where I disagree with Bean --see above). MH, and the various flourescents all require hundreds of volts to start and maintain, and you need strike voltages and pulses and thermal monitoring and failure monitoring circuitry etc. An LED can be lit with any DC source, and needs only a few volts - a bettery will work fine. Furthermore, dimming across the LEDs full output range (0% (off) to 100% (fully on) and anything in between is possible with simple current varying curcuitry). A downside is that most of the high power (ie a few Watt) LEDs do indeed produce a good amount of heat, and are usually sold preattached to alumina substrates for heat dispersion, and require additional heat sinking in the application circuitry to further disperse heat). In an ideal diode heat would not be generated at all - all input power would be converted to light only with no heat, but we dont live in an ideal world. On the positive side, I see a lot of the LED, optoelectronic trade magazines, and there is currently a lot of reserach in improving total output, total efficiency, and making more efficient "full spectrum" white LEDs. Soon soon... __________________ Probably the saddest thing you'll ever see is a mosquito sucking on a mummy. Forget it, little friend. Current Tank Info: 200 Floating out of my wall -

04/10/2006, 11:34 AM	#7
Siapin Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 924	Man, that was awesome feedback guys...I have to read it again to thoroughly absorb it. Thanks guys. __________________ Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits. Chuck Norris destroyed the periodic table, cuz he only knows the element of surprise. Chuck Norris can read a book by its cover! Current Tank Info: Innovative Marine Nuvo 38 -40 lbs live sand -35 lbs live rock -EcoTech Radion Pro -EcoTech mp10w -Tunze Comline 9004 skimmer -Tunze Osmolator (5017) w/calcium dispenser (5074)

04/10/2006, 11:38 AM	#9
Siapin Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 924	Is there any information on the web, any documentations that documents coral propagation under LED's? __________________ Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits. Chuck Norris destroyed the periodic table, cuz he only knows the element of surprise. Chuck Norris can read a book by its cover! Current Tank Info: Innovative Marine Nuvo 38 -40 lbs live sand -35 lbs live rock -EcoTech Radion Pro -EcoTech mp10w -Tunze Comline 9004 skimmer -Tunze Osmolator (5017) w/calcium dispenser (5074)

04/10/2006, 02:12 PM	#10
dougwilliams Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vestal, NY Posts: 761	Siapin - yes I agree with you on complexity - I forget there for a moment we were dealing with a whole big bank of them. A few is simple- but you are right that this would most likely end up being a series/parallel combo. A few in series is again easy as they all have the same current- where going parallel requires more detailed control. But then, who cares if one string has 698mA and the other is 705mA? There are a lot of off the shelf ICs for LED control these days - making things easier- a lot of tho0se are designed for battery packs and they are simple, less efficient regulators of one sort or another. This would definately require a switching regulator for control - and right there, at best would be in the neighborhood of 90% efficient itself. I guess in my mind its always easier to control DC at a few volts than having to make something that shoots up to a few hundred volts to kick start the bulb. __________________ Probably the saddest thing you'll ever see is a mosquito sucking on a mummy. Forget it, little friend. Current Tank Info: 200 Floating out of my wall -

04/10/2006, 10:16 AM	#1
Siapin Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 924	Can High Powered LED replace reef lighting? LED's are becoming more and more sophisticated and more powerful. Just a few years ago, they were just coming out with blue colored LED's, and now they have every color of the spectrum. And now, for the high powered LED's, they don't rate them in MCD, but in Lumens, because of their high intensity output. This is all being done while maintaining a very low electrical output. Metal Halides, T-5, PC are all good lighting for reefers, but use quite a bit of electricity, especially MH, which is prohibitive to a reefer wanting a large tank, but can't afford the high electricity bill. Does anyone know if it's possible at all to use 100+ LED's as a replacement for MH lighting? Of course anything is possible, but would it produce lighting that would be benificial towards sps and other corals? If anyone has any information or a website, forward it please. I'd like to experiment that theory if someone knows that it is possible. Thanks, Daniel __________________ Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits. Chuck Norris destroyed the periodic table, cuz he only knows the element of surprise. Chuck Norris can read a book by its cover! Current Tank Info: Innovative Marine Nuvo 38 -40 lbs live sand -35 lbs live rock -EcoTech Radion Pro -EcoTech mp10w -Tunze Comline 9004 skimmer -Tunze Osmolator (5017) w/calcium dispenser (5074)

04/10/2006, 10:32 AM	#2
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	No, LEDs are not there yet. The LED count and driver complexity make the product to expensive at this time. Give it a few more years and with better spectrum, even more power and more compact units... it may happen.

04/10/2006, 11:05 AM	#4
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	COSTS: The number of LEDs needed to the the desired PAR (spectrum and intensity) is HUGE. The actual SPECTRUM achievable is questionable anyway. The complexity if a current source driver to power the array, and do so efficiently. The amount of connections required and the high denisty need to pack the LEDs. The phyical size of the array and the need to waterproof the LEDs and connections without reducing the light output. The LIFESPAN at the rated output will be much less than 20+ years. Spectral changes and reduced output are also a reality with LEDs. The R&D costs and manufacturing costs, added to the marketing costs will drive the price upwards. Add on a bit of extra cost for "new technology" and demand... Someday you may see a unit hat provides the needed light at a reasonable cost. It is not going to be right now. Organic LEDS may also be promising... and more development is going into that field each day.

04/10/2006, 11:29 AM	#6
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	doug... I understand where you disagree. I guess we are looking at it (no pun) differently. The size of array we are talking about would need a fairly complex series/parallel arangement to to ensure reliability and reasonable current or voltage paths for each sub array. To keep the "efficiency" of the LEDs, the drive would have to be a matched current source, not a simple voltage source, otherwise the efficiency will be wasted in the electronics. Good current source LED drivers are somewhat complex compared to a "battery" or "ballast". Not that an E-ballast isn't somewhat complicated. The heat issue is a big problem that I did not mention in this thread. In any case... thanks for adding to the discussion.

04/10/2006, 11:36 AM	#8
Spracklcat Disaster Expert Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: LI, NY Posts: 1,714	To add to Doug's stuff-- At NERAC last month, there was a good talk by Tullio del Aquila addressing some of the issues in new LED fixtures and demonstrating the fixtures themselves. Firstly, PAR is a much more appropriate measure of light for our application than lumens is, and when you compare PAR readings of VHO's vs MH vs LED, you can use significantly fewer watts of LED to reach the same PAR. They are in fact using "white" LED's (blue with a yellow phosphor as Doug mentioned, or UV with a RGB phosphor) with good success for coral propagation. With regards to what wavelengths of light corals need, that depends on the species and at what depth that species naturally resides. That said, there has been little or no research to date attempting to raise corals with a singel wavelength of light because until the advent of LED's all the artifical light we have been using has been broad spectrum. Just some thoughts...

04/10/2006, 03:02 PM	#11
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	not to mention safer I just got a unit from a friend. It has 10 Luxeons in it... The PCB is thick and thermally attached to a BIG hunk of aluminum. To say this thing gets hot is kind of an undersatement. It is "bright" but I shudder to think at how many would be needed to light a 75, even if the spectrum was correct.

04/10/2006, 03:16 PM	#12
dougwilliams Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vestal, NY Posts: 761	Yeah - I got some freebies to test out from Lumileds (they make the Luxeon - but I guess recently got bought out by Philips) - including a some of their blue LEDs - yup - very thick hunk of metal to cool those off passively. The also sent me some of their partners lenses and some of the other partners supplies. All nice stuff, but yeah for all the reasons above - not quite ready for this market yet I think. But interesting to note that now that they are under Philips (a huge worldwide lighting vendor) I wonder what direction they will go in? And like you mentioned before- if we take the emitters themselves and even pack them as close as we can in a given area- is it even enough to compare with a MH yet? I envision something like a solid plate of metal covering the tank with every available space dedicated to another emitter. And then - is it enough? And how thick does that metal plate have to be to dissipate the heat safely? I wonder if rather than using the emitter assemblies if you could get the die and attach them in closer proximity to each other in a larger plate like structure. Then again- who would do such a thing for a low volume like this? __________________ Probably the saddest thing you'll ever see is a mosquito sucking on a mummy. Forget it, little friend. Current Tank Info: 200 Floating out of my wall -

04/10/2006, 04:05 PM	#13
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Doug.. that is basically my exact feelings. For comparison purposes, you can look at LED arrays that are on the market now. Anything that aproaches this FOOTPRINT (Not even close in intensity) costs thousands (if not tens of thousands) of dollars. the "fish" folks do not constitute any real market value at all. If these arrays could be made and sold cheaper than HID lighting, they would be. Folks need to understand the lighting of commercial space is what drives the industry. Advances in high intensity lighting first make their way into warehouse and factory space, where every lumen per watt is important to the bottom line. Take a typical floor space that used 500 lamps at a height of 30 feet. The lamps are usually MV or MH 1000 watters. 500 lights x 1kW each is 500 kW Take that times a 10 hour work day (forget a 24 hour warehouse) and your looking at 5000 kwH. So that warehouse costs $500 a day just for lighting. Bean

04/10/2006, 05:48 PM	#14
dougwilliams Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vestal, NY Posts: 761	Yup - fun to play with and I think we'll get there sometime, but not yet. In the meantime, you can rig up some blues as moonlighting - or 1 or two red for surreptitios night viewing. __________________ Probably the saddest thing you'll ever see is a mosquito sucking on a mummy. Forget it, little friend. Current Tank Info: 200 Floating out of my wall -

04/10/2006, 05:54 PM	#15
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	My setup (not finished) is 64 LEDS in a straight line array. Every 4th LED is red. I will be using a USB PWM based controller. My software will simulte moon phase using intensity. I had considered using the array for positon as well, allowing the moon to cross the "sky" but am not sure if I want to go through the trouble. In any case the RED leds are for night viewing when the moon is waning or new. Bean

04/10/2006, 06:12 PM	#16
Qwiv Persistant Perspective Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Belmont, CA Posts: 2,168	There are a few LED tank builds that have been done on RC. They are only feasable on small tanks at the moment. The LED's you are refering to on ebay as 100 for $30 are not the high power LEDs. They are also junk from one thread I followed, The guy ended up replacing tons of them due to failures. You need alot of these LED's and wiring them all up is no small feat. The high power LEDs are Luxeon LEDs. They are 1watt LEDs and higher. These will be a good replacement one day, but are very expensive right now. They are like $40 for (2). Ouch. http://www.luxeonstar.com/ Both the tanks I saw with LED lighting looked aswome, but they where all Nano's less than 12 gal. Each LED system ended up costing $200 - $450 bucks. I can buy a 150 watt MH for $80 and use the extra money to cover the electricity. Now scale that to a large tank!!! If you are interested, please experiment, but do it on a Nano. Fellow reefers can use this info to advance the hobby. I plan on trying on my next tank. A MacReef __________________ If I knew keeping fish would be so hard, I would of had kids by now. Current Tank Info: 50Cube + 250DD + Nano

04/10/2006, 06:28 PM	#17
Scuba_Dave EMERTXE YID Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Asylum, South of Boston, MA Posts: 10,362	I'd be happy just to start replacing some lighting in my home with LED lights at a decent price

04/10/2006, 07:13 PM	#18
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Dave that likely will not happen for a while either..... at least not with what we have right now. Who knows what the next 5 years will bring

04/10/2006, 07:49 PM	#19
Scuba_Dave EMERTXE YID Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Asylum, South of Boston, MA Posts: 10,362	I know, I've just finished replacing almost all of my lights in the house with PC bulbs. Started 2 years ago when we moved here. Bargain store near us _ Building #19 has them for .49 cents Here is a site that has started offering solutions for normal lighting http://autolumination.com/tracklights.htm

04/20/2006, 10:28 PM	#20
sodaman Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 113	Just a note on intensity of large array LEDs. I have experience with high power LEDs used for camera vision systems. I don't know the PAR rating but I have a $700 LED ringlight (somewhere around 100 LEDs) that will burn a pattern in your eyes that you will see for several mins after glancing at it for a split second. Just for fun, I may take one home and power it up over my tank just to see how intense it is.

04/21/2006, 01:31 AM	#22
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	you guys need to check out Nano-reef.com. There are several people there using LEDs to light their tanks, up to 7g minibows so far I have seen. The results are impressive.

04/21/2006, 01:43 AM	#23
Siapin Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 924	link for us lazy ones? __________________ Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits. Chuck Norris destroyed the periodic table, cuz he only knows the element of surprise. Chuck Norris can read a book by its cover! Current Tank Info: Innovative Marine Nuvo 38 -40 lbs live sand -35 lbs live rock -EcoTech Radion Pro -EcoTech mp10w -Tunze Comline 9004 skimmer -Tunze Osmolator (5017) w/calcium dispenser (5074)

04/21/2006, 02:08 AM	#24
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...opic=57855&hl= http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...opic=51577&hl= Even a spectral graph of the superbrite white LEDs shows here that they arent as narrow of a spectrum as you think. This thread lost its pics, but it was an impressive nano w/ LEDs. http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...opic=41595&hl= I dont know about you, but thats a better spectral curve than most 'white' bulbs out there. Look at that 450nm peak! All you need is some of these and some 420nm LEDs as supplimental actinic and you are set! If you just go to nano-reef.com, and do a search (its free there) for 'LED lighting' you will find many LED projects going on. Its been going on for a few years there already, but due to a server transfer and a website upgrade, many of the older thread's pictures have been lost. The info is still there though. Many are currently tinkering with the 420nm and 450nm LEDs and the super bright Luxeon LEDs.

04/21/2006, 03:26 PM	#25
shrug1013 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Chapel Hill Posts: 52	great information!!!