fish dying

fish are life · 04/21/2006, 01:37 PM

so a couple days ago my pearl scale died and today my naso tang died. the tang's side looked blotchy and pale. he had been eating well and i gave him the proper food. i just dont knwo what this is due to.

DecoyDave · 04/21/2006, 02:21 PM

First off, what are your water params (not just OK, but the specifics). Second, what do you have in you tank other than the pearl scale and naso?

fish are life · 04/22/2006, 02:05 AM

i dont know for shure what my water is like i will take some into work tomarrow to test, and i also have a clown soapfish, yellow tang, goldflake angel, koran angel, zebra moray eel, snowflake eel, sunset wrass, dog face puffer, lawnmower goby, and tomato clown

lws · 04/22/2006, 05:34 AM

isnt that tank far too heavily stocked?

gallivanmk · 04/22/2006, 06:55 AM

Wow, that is definitely over-stocked. In my 110, I have a Porcupine Puffer, Volitan Lion, Majestic Angel, and a Miniatus Grouper. I think that is too much! I am trying to decide which one I want to get rid of (I am pretty attached to all of them). With that being said. What kind of filtration do you have? I don't see anything being able to keep up with that bio-load. I would guess that your ammonia is spiked and all of your fish are stressed (among other things). You don't see any aggression with all those fish? I would seriously consider trading in at least half of your livestock and buying your own test kit.

Sk8r · 04/22/2006, 07:43 AM

In my 52 I have 2 firefish, a ywg (1 1/2 inches), a mandarin, a blue chromis and a scribbled rabbit (3 inches.) The rabbit is going because he's too large and too stressful to the other fish and corals in that confinement.

CeeGee · 04/22/2006, 09:37 AM

I have to say that I chuckled when I saw this post.

fish are dying by fish are life. I don't know why but I found that hilarious.

on to the subject at hand. You are having problems and you don't even know your water parameters and you work at a fish store? You don't work at petsmart do you? This type of problem crops up all too often. If you can't afford some test kits (especially when you probably get a discount from your workplace) you shouldn't even have a tank going. It is kinda like saying I need help and then someone asks what you need help with and the reply is I don't know. Your fish can't talk and the only thing you can do to help them is test their water and watch them for signs of stress and disease. If they could talk they would probably tell you how cramped up they are. My guess as to what is happening is that one unhappy fish is killing the others and I can't say I would blame them in a tank that small with that many fish. Then there is also the possibility of the water being foul because of such a huge bioload. That would be easy to diagnose if you had test kits. You may not ever figure out what killed those other fish but if you really care about the animals that you are attempting to keep you should get rid of a few of them or get a larger tank.

I am not trying to sound holier than thou as I have my own problems here and there but the problems you are having sound more like newbie mistakes. Water quality is paramount and is often overlooked by new hobbyists. The only way to know whether your water is in check and your fish have a chance at survival is by using high quality test kits. I realize that you can test water at work but how are you going to test water at 2:30 in the morning when a problem arises and work is closed?

Overstocking is often a trait of a new hobbyist (as is overfeeding) and you are more than overstocked I would say that you have 3X your max amount in that tank and that isn't including the two fish that you have lost.

I am stepping down from my soapbox now. I hope you don't lose any more fish and that you get things squared away. As it is now I personally think you are heading for disaster and I would be willing to bet your Naso and Pearl scale think so as well.

fish are life · 04/23/2006, 02:25 AM

well i have been keeping saltwater for over 2 years so i dont really consider myself a newbie. and my water that i tested today is a little high in amonia but not really enough to do this it is at .50 and no i dont work at petco it is a local buisness. and i am running two fluval 404's on it. and i have seen tanks the same size wiht much more fish that i have. it doesnt even look that crowded.

gallivanmk · 04/23/2006, 07:36 AM

Well, looks like you aren't taking advice after all. It seems like your fish are dying because your ammonia is spiked. Your filtration can't keep up with the amount of waste your fish are producing. The only suggestion you are going to get out of anyone here is to reduce your bio-load. I hope you don't lose any more fish.

Reef Junkie · 04/23/2006, 08:06 AM

Dude, do some water changes and get your fish out of there. If you had an ammonia spike and it's still reading (even a little) that means your tank is shot.

Not to knock you, but it seems you're missing some basic maintenance issues.

CeeGee · 04/24/2006, 09:32 AM

.5 ammonia is high.

Chances are even better that the reading is incorrect and it is much higher.

ANY ammonia is cause for concern. A properly functioning bio-filter should not show any ammonia EVER.

I would check those fluvals and see how dirty they are. I am not familiar with that model of filter but if it is a canister they are notorious for getting really nasty quickly. It could be adding to your problem.

li-mike · 04/24/2006, 09:58 AM

I agree get those fish out and re-cycle the tank as the cycle has broken down due to overloading most likely. If you really want that load of fish you need to go much larger than what you have. Save your money get your discounts in order and upgrade to a 220.

I wish you luck on saving what you have left that is an awesome mix of fish.

affan · 04/24/2006, 10:29 AM

In my own experience, this board has saved me so many times I've lost count. If you want to save your fish, and your tank, listen to what every one is telling you. There's no bias in what they say because they don't know you. Even if it is critical advice, listen to it. You'll be thankful later. In the meantime, reduce the bioload by at least half if not more. Having that many fish in a 110 gallon is similar to you and I living in a 12x12 shack with no bathroom. Do major water changes, check your water parameters. You'll be surprised with what kind of results you get with good husbandry practices.

fish are life · 04/25/2006, 01:34 PM

so i did a water change and took out my gold flake and my dog face puffer and guess what? in the tank i put them in at my friends house they both died. but the good news is that there isnt any more noticable ich in my tank and i just purchased another fluval 404. i am going to do another water change today and see what happens. thanks everyone

PatrickB101 · 05/15/2006, 02:00 PM

sounds like ur fish where so unhealthy they couldn't even take a move.

PeeperKeeper · 05/15/2006, 02:35 PM

Yes, unfortunately when fish are stressed already, moving them, even though it is the best thing to do, is another stress which can be the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't know if you did, but in hindsight, doing a really slow (like >3 hour) drip acclimation to the friend's tank would have been best to reduce the stress of the move as much as possible.

I sounds like it did help things for the rest of your fish to reduce the load. I'm glad to hear that things are doing better. Keep doing the water changes while your filtration system catches up.

So just to make sure I understand you correctly, you are now running 3 cannister type filters on a 110 gallon tank and that's all? Do you have a sump? Protien Skimmer? Live rock or wet/dry filter? You mentioned having seen tanks the same size with as many fish, but did you look under the cabinet of those tanks? If the people keeping those tanks were experienced, you can bet they had some serious filtration systems in place and if there was a cannister present (which there probably wasn't) it was only supplemental or a way to run carbon.

Quote:

well i have been keeping saltwater for over 2 years so i dont really consider myself a newbie. and my water that i tested today is a little high in amonia but not really enough to do this it is at .50

Just having SW tanks for two years doesn't relieve you of newbie status. I'm sure CeeGee saw in your signature that you've been keeping SW for 2 years since he/she saw that you work in a LFS. What they were saying is that some of the mistakes that show up from your initial post(s) are those that would be made by a new hobbyist (for example, thinking that any positive test for ammonia wasn't a big deal! That was a HUGE red flag!).

I'm glad you took the advice of those on this board who were trying to save your fish. Now my recommendation is to start reading as much as you can from this board or others you can find on the internet. I've had saltwater tanks for over 12 years, but the past 8 years, although I've still had my tank up, I've been practically dormant as far as researching/learning and since I got back into it about two months ago, I feel like a newbie myself. There is so much that needs to be learned and understood to be successful in this hobby that no one could possibly learn it all. The things that were state of the art when I had my reef tank back in 1994 - 2000 are now old news. Back then it was wet/dry filtration and protien skimmers and ozone were high tech, now it's all live rock, DSB's and refugiums and skimmers are light years ahead of where they were then.

Good luck! Maybe you can upgrade to that 210 and use your 110 as the sump.

salineh2o · 05/15/2006, 03:49 PM

I think there are to many experts in this POST!!!!

Sometimes answers in "essay form" are ignored. Alot of good informtion and advice, but lost to the BLAH BLAH BLAH!!

All you need to know is:

DO WATER CHANGES AND MAKE SURE YOUR NITRATES AND PHOSPHATES ARE ALMOST ZERO.

Sometimes the scientists and experts make it alot more complicated( and more expensive than that.)

PeeperKeeper · 05/15/2006, 10:51 PM

Sorry. I'm incapable of writing a short post. Blah Blah Blah...

P.S. whatayouknow? I did it.

PatrickB101 · 05/16/2006, 07:21 AM

having any dedictable amonia = bad news.

water changes FTW.

also make sure u are using quality water i wont make this debate on how the water is cleaned but atleast make sure your not using tap.

jester805 · 05/16/2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by salineh2o
I think there are to many experts in this POST!!!!

Sometimes answers in "essay form" are ignored. Alot of good informtion and advice, but lost to the BLAH BLAH BLAH!!

All you need to know is:

DO WATER CHANGES AND MAKE SURE YOUR NITRATES AND PHOSPHATES ARE ALMOST ZERO.

I agree with you 100%. Let's all keep in mind that attacking someone is not the best way to get the information across.

mickyfin · 05/16/2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jester805
I agree with you 100%. Let's all keep in mind that attacking someone is not the best way to get the information across.

Except he missed the OPs point entirely.

There is 0 about phosphates and nitrates in this thread.

Maybe you have ADD and cannot get through essay form, but well thoguht out and well worded responses that contain the most information is what I'm after.

You know what opinions are like so no need for me to go further.

jester805 · 05/16/2006, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mickyfin
Except he missed the OPs point entirely.

There is 0 about phosphates and nitrates in this thread.

Maybe you have ADD and cannot get through essay form, but well thoguht out and well worded responses that contain the most information is what I'm after.

You know what opinions are like so no need for me to go further.

Maybe I have ADD because I said that attacking someone isn't the best way?????? Maybe you need to go back to English class and READ WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID. I simply agreed with someone's comment. I'm not the one who said anything about nitrates or phosphates.

mickyfin · 05/16/2006, 01:07 PM

I agree with you 100%... is what you wrote?

So you only agree with him 92%?

Or not at all?

jester805 · 05/16/2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mickyfin
I agree with you 100%... is what you wrote?

So you only agree with him 92%?

Or not at all?

Oh my gosh. Why do you even care? What does it matter? Do you have nothing better to do in life?

I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sorry for even commenting on this public forum. Next time I'll make sure to have you proof read my replies.

fish are life · 05/16/2006, 01:17 PM

ya i do need to get a sump in but ever since i had the fish loss everythign perked up nicely and are eating like beasts. i am only running 2 fluval 404 and a skimmer in there but with only the 4 fish i have in there that are all farely small i dont think i will need to do alot of more filtration unless you all think otherwise that let me know. but thanks everyone and dont think i am ignorant

04/21/2006, 01:37 PM	#1
fish are life Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: tucson AZ Posts: 171	fish dying so a couple days ago my pearl scale died and today my naso tang died. the tang's side looked blotchy and pale. he had been eating well and i gave him the proper food. i just dont knwo what this is due to.

04/22/2006, 07:43 AM	#6
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	In my 52 I have 2 firefish, a ywg (1 1/2 inches), a mandarin, a blue chromis and a scribbled rabbit (3 inches.) The rabbit is going because he's too large and too stressful to the other fish and corals in that confinement. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

04/22/2006, 09:37 AM	#7
CeeGee Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 3,272	I have to say that I chuckled when I saw this post. fish are dying by fish are life. I don't know why but I found that hilarious. on to the subject at hand. You are having problems and you don't even know your water parameters and you work at a fish store? You don't work at petsmart do you? This type of problem crops up all too often. If you can't afford some test kits (especially when you probably get a discount from your workplace) you shouldn't even have a tank going. It is kinda like saying I need help and then someone asks what you need help with and the reply is I don't know. Your fish can't talk and the only thing you can do to help them is test their water and watch them for signs of stress and disease. If they could talk they would probably tell you how cramped up they are. My guess as to what is happening is that one unhappy fish is killing the others and I can't say I would blame them in a tank that small with that many fish. Then there is also the possibility of the water being foul because of such a huge bioload. That would be easy to diagnose if you had test kits. You may not ever figure out what killed those other fish but if you really care about the animals that you are attempting to keep you should get rid of a few of them or get a larger tank. I am not trying to sound holier than thou as I have my own problems here and there but the problems you are having sound more like newbie mistakes. Water quality is paramount and is often overlooked by new hobbyists. The only way to know whether your water is in check and your fish have a chance at survival is by using high quality test kits. I realize that you can test water at work but how are you going to test water at 2:30 in the morning when a problem arises and work is closed? Overstocking is often a trait of a new hobbyist (as is overfeeding) and you are more than overstocked I would say that you have 3X your max amount in that tank and that isn't including the two fish that you have lost. I am stepping down from my soapbox now. I hope you don't lose any more fish and that you get things squared away. As it is now I personally think you are heading for disaster and I would be willing to bet your Naso and Pearl scale think so as well. __________________ My algae WAS special. Current Tank Info: 75 gallon display, 40 gallon breeder sump, RLSS R6i, ATI Powermodule, Apex, Ecotech MP40's

04/23/2006, 08:06 AM	#10
Reef Junkie Premium Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Somewhere, NY Posts: 6,595	Dude, do some water changes and get your fish out of there. If you had an ammonia spike and it's still reading (even a little) that means your tank is shot. Not to knock you, but it seems you're missing some basic maintenance issues. __________________ Bill "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." B.B. Current Tank Info: "Still" Living vicariously through cb747

04/24/2006, 09:32 AM	#11
CeeGee Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 3,272	.5 ammonia is high. Chances are even better that the reading is incorrect and it is much higher. ANY ammonia is cause for concern. A properly functioning bio-filter should not show any ammonia EVER. I would check those fluvals and see how dirty they are. I am not familiar with that model of filter but if it is a canister they are notorious for getting really nasty quickly. It could be adding to your problem. __________________ My algae WAS special. Current Tank Info: 75 gallon display, 40 gallon breeder sump, RLSS R6i, ATI Powermodule, Apex, Ecotech MP40's Last edited by CeeGee; 04/24/2006 at 09:58 AM.

04/21/2006, 02:21 PM	#2
DecoyDave Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Vacaville, CA Posts: 26	First off, what are your water params (not just OK, but the specifics). Second, what do you have in you tank other than the pearl scale and naso?

04/22/2006, 02:05 AM	#3
fish are life Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: tucson AZ Posts: 171	i dont know for shure what my water is like i will take some into work tomarrow to test, and i also have a clown soapfish, yellow tang, goldflake angel, koran angel, zebra moray eel, snowflake eel, sunset wrass, dog face puffer, lawnmower goby, and tomato clown

04/22/2006, 05:34 AM	#4
lws Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18	isnt that tank far too heavily stocked?

04/22/2006, 06:55 AM	#5
gallivanmk Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 663	Wow, that is definitely over-stocked. In my 110, I have a Porcupine Puffer, Volitan Lion, Majestic Angel, and a Miniatus Grouper. I think that is too much! I am trying to decide which one I want to get rid of (I am pretty attached to all of them). With that being said. What kind of filtration do you have? I don't see anything being able to keep up with that bio-load. I would guess that your ammonia is spiked and all of your fish are stressed (among other things). You don't see any aggression with all those fish? I would seriously consider trading in at least half of your livestock and buying your own test kit.

04/23/2006, 02:25 AM	#8
fish are life Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: tucson AZ Posts: 171	well i have been keeping saltwater for over 2 years so i dont really consider myself a newbie. and my water that i tested today is a little high in amonia but not really enough to do this it is at .50 and no i dont work at petco it is a local buisness. and i am running two fluval 404's on it. and i have seen tanks the same size wiht much more fish that i have. it doesnt even look that crowded.

04/23/2006, 07:36 AM	#9
gallivanmk Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 663	Well, looks like you aren't taking advice after all. It seems like your fish are dying because your ammonia is spiked. Your filtration can't keep up with the amount of waste your fish are producing. The only suggestion you are going to get out of anyone here is to reduce your bio-load. I hope you don't lose any more fish.

04/24/2006, 09:58 AM	#12
li-mike Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wading River, NY Posts: 53	I agree get those fish out and re-cycle the tank as the cycle has broken down due to overloading most likely. If you really want that load of fish you need to go much larger than what you have. Save your money get your discounts in order and upgrade to a 220. I wish you luck on saving what you have left that is an awesome mix of fish. __________________ I love this Hobby!! Current Tank Info: 16 Gallon Glass Bow Nano

04/24/2006, 10:29 AM	#13
affan Moved On Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: From NYC, currently serving time in Hattiesburg, MS Posts: 1,125	In my own experience, this board has saved me so many times I've lost count. If you want to save your fish, and your tank, listen to what every one is telling you. There's no bias in what they say because they don't know you. Even if it is critical advice, listen to it. You'll be thankful later. In the meantime, reduce the bioload by at least half if not more. Having that many fish in a 110 gallon is similar to you and I living in a 12x12 shack with no bathroom. Do major water changes, check your water parameters. You'll be surprised with what kind of results you get with good husbandry practices.

04/25/2006, 01:34 PM	#14
fish are life Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: tucson AZ Posts: 171	so i did a water change and took out my gold flake and my dog face puffer and guess what? in the tank i put them in at my friends house they both died. but the good news is that there isnt any more noticable ich in my tank and i just purchased another fluval 404. i am going to do another water change today and see what happens. thanks everyone

05/15/2006, 02:00 PM	#15
PatrickB101 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 126	sounds like ur fish where so unhealthy they couldn't even take a move.

05/15/2006, 03:49 PM	#17
salineh2o Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: ontario Posts: 254	I think there are to many experts in this POST!!!! Sometimes answers in "essay form" are ignored. Alot of good informtion and advice, but lost to the BLAH BLAH BLAH!! All you need to know is: DO WATER CHANGES AND MAKE SURE YOUR NITRATES AND PHOSPHATES ARE ALMOST ZERO. Sometimes the scientists and experts make it alot more complicated( and more expensive than that.)

05/15/2006, 10:51 PM	#18
PeeperKeeper Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: TX Posts: 60	Sorry. I'm incapable of writing a short post. Blah Blah Blah... P.S. whatayouknow? I did it.

05/16/2006, 07:21 AM	#19
PatrickB101 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 126	having any dedictable amonia = bad news. water changes FTW. also make sure u are using quality water i wont make this debate on how the water is cleaned but atleast make sure your not using tap.

05/16/2006, 01:07 PM	#23
mickyfin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 320	I agree with you 100%... is what you wrote? So you only agree with him 92%? Or not at all? __________________ "If you're gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough." Current Tank Info: 120 gal mixed reef

05/16/2006, 01:17 PM	#25
fish are life Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: tucson AZ Posts: 171	ya i do need to get a sump in but ever since i had the fish loss everythign perked up nicely and are eating like beasts. i am only running 2 fluval 404 and a skimmer in there but with only the 4 fish i have in there that are all farely small i dont think i will need to do alot of more filtration unless you all think otherwise that let me know. but thanks everyone and dont think i am ignorant