phosphate problem

geppert · 04/23/2006, 12:15 AM

I am having phosphate problems.
The phosphate level has been around 2 to 3

I have a 55 gal reef with a 30 gal mud refugium

In the refugium I have bio balls, the mud, mangroves, hundreds of feather dusters and some saw blade calupera.

The next chamber is bio balls and the last chamber is live rock and a bag of phosban.

55 Gal reef
3-12 50 gram phosban in media bag
3-24 25 gal water change phosphate level 1.0
4-2 25 gal phos 2
4-3 added 150 grams of phosban
4-10 30 gal phos 1.5
4-20 30 gal phos 2
4-22 phosphates 2

125 fish only with mud refugium
4-15 phosphates .2
4-15 Treated tank for flatworms
4-15 30 gal water change in 125
4-22 phosphates 2
The refugium was completely full of saw blade calupera until I treated for flatworms, most of it has died.

Nano
3-26 3 gal water change nano phosphates .5 4-21 5 gal phos 2

I am using Oceanic Natural sea salt I started using this salt on 3-24 and I check phosphates in the water I am going to change out it is 0

I am loosing my mind trying to get phosphates to 0

chadscamaro · 04/23/2006, 08:44 AM

Looks like your phosphate problem started the same time you switched salts ?? Maybe switch back and do more water changes!

spooda420 · 04/23/2006, 09:01 AM

doesnt high Mg levels naturally decrease po4?

I thought I read that somewhere

geppert · 04/23/2006, 09:18 AM

I think you are right chad, I am going to call drsmith fosters and ask them if they will send me another brand. They have been exceptional to work with in the past.

geppert · 04/23/2006, 09:22 AM

Where did the flatworms come from?
I have not added anything to my FO except fish.
I have 5 different types of good algae growing and some sps that was on the live rockwhen I purchased it.

DrBDC · 04/23/2006, 11:09 AM

One thing that released phosphates is the macro dieing off in the 125. They absorb them with growth and if they die off will release it back into the water column. If it wan't in the 55 that doesn't explain that tank but some did come from the dieing macro.

I had heard about a year ago of people with problems with phosphates in the Oceanic but I would "think" they would have addressed that by now but they haven't touched the whole issue of excessive calcium so maybe not.

The phosban would be more efficient in a fluidized filter i.e. phosban reactor or a 10 minute diy version. Just a 3 or 4 inch pvc pipe and a powerhead pushing water bottom to top through it.

If the phosphates got high even if you have the water column addressed the rock could be leaching phosphates for awhile as well. That will just be a waiting game if that's the case. Some heavier wet skimming can help but have excess water ready for replacement. If you skim heavy it will have salt in it so keep an eye on salinity so that you don't lower it by replacing with plain water when it needs a little salt too.

Rinse any frozen foods well and cut back on feedings. Unless you have to for a tank inhabitant stop any brine shrimp feeding as it is high in phosphates.

Make sure there is good flow everywhere to help and get some cheato in both tanks going to eat it up too.

I'd also replace any bioball and/or biowheel setups with live rock in the same spots as it should work on a fo system but it does give a place for accumulation of detrius which breaks down and will give a place for phosphates to be released.

geppert · 04/23/2006, 12:15 PM

I agree with you doc that when the sawblade algae died off it caused the phosphates to go up, but it should not have died off in the first place. I did not have any die off in the tank only in the sump.

Got a link on the diy phosban reactor?

DrBDC · 04/23/2006, 01:19 PM

No link. There is probably one out there. Just get a foot of pvc pipe, a cap for each end that will screw off on the top side. In each of the two caps either tap a thread for a nipple to go to tubing or get one with it on there. Lowes seems to have the best selection of fitting etc. There are seperate nipples etc. in an aisle about 2 over from the pvc where the sump pumps are so make sure you look in there as you're doing the "in aisle engineering". If you have a media bag you could just place it in there w/o any sponges or distribution plates. Then hook the power head on it to flow through. Using the media bags you can make it big enough to fit a carbon AND a phoban bag in it and get dual use. The carbon will need to be changed more often though. My guess would be about 10 bucks plus a powerhead which you may already have around.

Or if you just want to make it easy buy a powerhead and a phoban reactor at the LFS. I think GWA and MS had some phosban reactors for about 30-35.

geppert · 04/23/2006, 11:02 PM

I am going to make my own so that I can use it for carbon and phosban. Thanks for saving me fourty bucks doc!

mjpelikan · 04/24/2006, 08:24 PM

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=701654

This is what I have built, real easy. (I haven't put it in to use yet). I have some extra eggcrate if you would like a chunk or two.

geppert · 04/24/2006, 11:20 PM

Thanks for the pics mjpelican
I am going to build mine out of pvc
I appreciate the offer on the eggcrate but I have some.
I have been in contact with live aquaria and they have been extremely helpful.
I am going to test the ro/di water for phosphates
The I will check the salt for phosphates again.
I have checked this in the past but I will check it again to be sure.
I am wanting live aquaria to send me a bucket of coralife to replace the Oceanic natural sea salt I purchased.

DrBDC · 04/25/2006, 05:50 AM

I think you will be much happier with the chemistry balance of the Coralife vs. the Oceanic. I personally still like being closer to NSW with the IO but Coralife is much closer.

geppert · 05/03/2006, 11:18 AM

I just got off the phone with Live Aquaria after 92 min.
They were more than helpful trying to isolate the phosphates.
I did a test on the r/o water 0
I tested the salt mix 0 to .03
I tested the dkh 0 to .05
They told me the importantance of rinsing frozen foods
They were really leaning toward this to be the problem
However I do not feed this food in the 125
They were extremely patient and searched the web to see if flatworm exit had phosphate in it.
In the end they asked me what I would like to do, what could they send me to help out.
I thought Live Aquaria went above and beyond to help me in my time of need.
They will be sending me a bucket of Cora life salt for free.

geppert · 05/03/2006, 11:27 AM

I finished building my reactors last night.
I bought a 2 ft piece of 3" pipe
2 end caps
2 threaded clean outs
2 connectors to thread and hook the hose from the pump up to
1 ft hose

I cut the 2ft piece of pipe in half
I tapped the end caps
screwed the fitting in the end caps
Glued everything together.
I spent $28 and made two

mjpelikan · 05/03/2006, 12:34 PM

pics?

geppert · 05/03/2006, 09:31 PM

I can not figure out how to post pics on reefcentral
But I can email anyone

04/23/2006, 12:15 AM	#1
geppert Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oakdale IL Posts: 217	phosphate problem I am having phosphate problems. The phosphate level has been around 2 to 3 I have a 55 gal reef with a 30 gal mud refugium In the refugium I have bio balls, the mud, mangroves, hundreds of feather dusters and some saw blade calupera. The next chamber is bio balls and the last chamber is live rock and a bag of phosban. 55 Gal reef 3-12 50 gram phosban in media bag 3-24 25 gal water change phosphate level 1.0 4-2 25 gal phos 2 4-3 added 150 grams of phosban 4-10 30 gal phos 1.5 4-20 30 gal phos 2 4-22 phosphates 2 125 fish only with mud refugium 4-15 phosphates .2 4-15 Treated tank for flatworms 4-15 30 gal water change in 125 4-22 phosphates 2 The refugium was completely full of saw blade calupera until I treated for flatworms, most of it has died. Nano 3-26 3 gal water change nano phosphates .5 4-21 5 gal phos 2 I am using Oceanic Natural sea salt I started using this salt on 3-24 and I check phosphates in the water I am going to change out it is 0 I am loosing my mind trying to get phosphates to 0

04/23/2006, 09:01 AM	#3
spooda420 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: O'Fallon MO Posts: 1,688	doesnt high Mg levels naturally decrease po4? I thought I read that somewhere __________________ Chris Current Tank Info: 250g, 150g sump, H&S 250x2 1260s, T5s, GEO CA reactor, MA Sulfur DeNITRIFIER XL, 300lbs LR, 6" DSB, running ozone, all controlled by the Apex controller.

04/23/2006, 11:09 AM	#6
DrBDC Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ballwin, Missouri Posts: 10,358	One thing that released phosphates is the macro dieing off in the 125. They absorb them with growth and if they die off will release it back into the water column. If it wan't in the 55 that doesn't explain that tank but some did come from the dieing macro. I had heard about a year ago of people with problems with phosphates in the Oceanic but I would "think" they would have addressed that by now but they haven't touched the whole issue of excessive calcium so maybe not. The phosban would be more efficient in a fluidized filter i.e. phosban reactor or a 10 minute diy version. Just a 3 or 4 inch pvc pipe and a powerhead pushing water bottom to top through it. If the phosphates got high even if you have the water column addressed the rock could be leaching phosphates for awhile as well. That will just be a waiting game if that's the case. Some heavier wet skimming can help but have excess water ready for replacement. If you skim heavy it will have salt in it so keep an eye on salinity so that you don't lower it by replacing with plain water when it needs a little salt too. Rinse any frozen foods well and cut back on feedings. Unless you have to for a tank inhabitant stop any brine shrimp feeding as it is high in phosphates. Make sure there is good flow everywhere to help and get some cheato in both tanks going to eat it up too. I'd also replace any bioball and/or biowheel setups with live rock in the same spots as it should work on a fo system but it does give a place for accumulation of detrius which breaks down and will give a place for phosphates to be released. __________________ Some drink at the fountain of knowledge, some just gargle, but most are rabid. Current Tank Info: 180g sps+75 softy/lps on one system tunze's, seio's, mjmods, aquacontroller w/add ons, 2X400 XM10000 and 3X160 vho actinic, 110g sump, 110 frag tank, Geo Beckett and other stuff

04/23/2006, 01:19 PM	#8
DrBDC Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ballwin, Missouri Posts: 10,358	No link. There is probably one out there. Just get a foot of pvc pipe, a cap for each end that will screw off on the top side. In each of the two caps either tap a thread for a nipple to go to tubing or get one with it on there. Lowes seems to have the best selection of fitting etc. There are seperate nipples etc. in an aisle about 2 over from the pvc where the sump pumps are so make sure you look in there as you're doing the "in aisle engineering". If you have a media bag you could just place it in there w/o any sponges or distribution plates. Then hook the power head on it to flow through. Using the media bags you can make it big enough to fit a carbon AND a phoban bag in it and get dual use. The carbon will need to be changed more often though. My guess would be about 10 bucks plus a powerhead which you may already have around. Or if you just want to make it easy buy a powerhead and a phoban reactor at the LFS. I think GWA and MS had some phosban reactors for about 30-35. __________________ Some drink at the fountain of knowledge, some just gargle, but most are rabid. Current Tank Info: 180g sps+75 softy/lps on one system tunze's, seio's, mjmods, aquacontroller w/add ons, 2X400 XM10000 and 3X160 vho actinic, 110g sump, 110 frag tank, Geo Beckett and other stuff

04/25/2006, 05:50 AM	#12
DrBDC Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ballwin, Missouri Posts: 10,358	I think you will be much happier with the chemistry balance of the Coralife vs. the Oceanic. I personally still like being closer to NSW with the IO but Coralife is much closer. __________________ Some drink at the fountain of knowledge, some just gargle, but most are rabid. Current Tank Info: 180g sps+75 softy/lps on one system tunze's, seio's, mjmods, aquacontroller w/add ons, 2X400 XM10000 and 3X160 vho actinic, 110g sump, 110 frag tank, Geo Beckett and other stuff

04/23/2006, 08:44 AM	#2
chadscamaro Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: St. Louis Posts: 1,466	Looks like your phosphate problem started the same time you switched salts ?? Maybe switch back and do more water changes!

04/23/2006, 09:18 AM	#4
geppert Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oakdale IL Posts: 217	I think you are right chad, I am going to call drsmith fosters and ask them if they will send me another brand. They have been exceptional to work with in the past.

04/23/2006, 09:22 AM	#5
geppert Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oakdale IL Posts: 217	Where did the flatworms come from? I have not added anything to my FO except fish. I have 5 different types of good algae growing and some sps that was on the live rockwhen I purchased it.

04/23/2006, 12:15 PM	#7
geppert Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oakdale IL Posts: 217	I agree with you doc that when the sawblade algae died off it caused the phosphates to go up, but it should not have died off in the first place. I did not have any die off in the tank only in the sump. Got a link on the diy phosban reactor?

04/23/2006, 11:02 PM	#9
geppert Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oakdale IL Posts: 217	I am going to make my own so that I can use it for carbon and phosban. Thanks for saving me fourty bucks doc!

04/24/2006, 08:24 PM	#10
mjpelikan Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: O'Fallon, MO Posts: 579	http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=701654 This is what I have built, real easy. (I haven't put it in to use yet). I have some extra eggcrate if you would like a chunk or two.

04/24/2006, 11:20 PM	#11
geppert Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oakdale IL Posts: 217	Thanks for the pics mjpelican I am going to build mine out of pvc I appreciate the offer on the eggcrate but I have some. I have been in contact with live aquaria and they have been extremely helpful. I am going to test the ro/di water for phosphates The I will check the salt for phosphates again. I have checked this in the past but I will check it again to be sure. I am wanting live aquaria to send me a bucket of coralife to replace the Oceanic natural sea salt I purchased.

05/03/2006, 11:18 AM	#13
geppert Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oakdale IL Posts: 217	I just got off the phone with Live Aquaria after 92 min. They were more than helpful trying to isolate the phosphates. I did a test on the r/o water 0 I tested the salt mix 0 to .03 I tested the dkh 0 to .05 They told me the importantance of rinsing frozen foods They were really leaning toward this to be the problem However I do not feed this food in the 125 They were extremely patient and searched the web to see if flatworm exit had phosphate in it. In the end they asked me what I would like to do, what could they send me to help out. I thought Live Aquaria went above and beyond to help me in my time of need. They will be sending me a bucket of Cora life salt for free.

05/03/2006, 11:27 AM	#14
geppert Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oakdale IL Posts: 217	I finished building my reactors last night. I bought a 2 ft piece of 3" pipe 2 end caps 2 threaded clean outs 2 connectors to thread and hook the hose from the pump up to 1 ft hose I cut the 2ft piece of pipe in half I tapped the end caps screwed the fitting in the end caps Glued everything together. I spent $28 and made two

05/03/2006, 12:34 PM	#15
mjpelikan Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: O'Fallon, MO Posts: 579	pics?

05/03/2006, 09:31 PM	#16
geppert Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oakdale IL Posts: 217	I can not figure out how to post pics on reefcentral But I can email anyone